Oldmics,

Thanks for your post.  Any factory documents I saw indicated both 1956 260 hp engines used a pair of the EDB-9510-C Holleys.  However, anything could be possible.  Were the Carter carbs ever documented in any factory paperwork?   

I've contacted a couple of former Ford colleagues to see what they may recall, or if anyone else may be around that may have some information.  I think the teo people that could best answer these questions, Sullivan and Hotton, are no longer with us.

Re the 1957 312-285 hp engine.  Has it ever been documented if any of these engines were installed on the assembly line or were they only available as a kit?  I wonder if someone claiming a 285 hp E code would have the Gate Release document available from the T-Bird Club or the original bill of sale or window sticker to substantiate it being the 285 hp version.  Is anyone aware if any Gate Releases exist listing the 312-285 hp engine?    

This is similar to proving a factory 1961 390 Hi-Performance car.  All versions, 300, 375, or 401 had a Z engine code in the VIN.  There were several unique components that identify a 375 or 401 hp car, but since they are basically bolt on, one could be "buiilt".  Original paperwork, either the original window sticker or the bill of sale, were the only actual ways to demonstrate it was an original HP car. 

Regards,

Dennis

Paul,

           We need to be certain that the timing events were measured at the same lift when comparing different cams. My supercharger book lists some very strange lift numbers for the cams. Today we compare everthing at .050, makes life much simpler, obviously. I've not seen yet, maybe I missed it, what cam was installed in the 285 hp engines.

        I don't think I said the 285 was an E-2, I stated I thought it might have been ground by ISKY. I would be somewhat surprised to discover the cams were machined by a Ford facility. The volumes are pretty low for those guys. Same thing for the intake manifolds, I'd quess those were done by Eck foundry in Manitowoc Wisconson, or another Aluminum foundry, not at Cleveland or Windsor. I don't think either captive foundry had Aluminum facilities in the 50's.

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

A good buddy of mine has an E Bird.He is not the original owner but did acquire it from the original owners.It was quite a runner.

Back in the 70s he had the engine rebuilt.The machine shop commeneted on the use of the dual valve springs from the factory.

The cam was replaced.Unfortunatly it was discarded.

We believe that since it had dual valve springs from the factory that it was a 285 H.P. engine.

His gate release form does not mention anything about a 285 H.P. option.

Thats as close as we have gotten.

It would be great if the CTCI would allow the information from the gate release forms collected from the "E" and "F" cars to be known.

Oldmics

Wally Kirstein sent me what I am convinced is an original F-Code cam as described in the manual. It is quite different than the over the counter cams that were sold as B7A6250C.

Here are the Cam Doctor specs:

EDB CAM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 CAM PRO PLUS Cam Lift Report                                8/22/2010        

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                                     INTAKE                                  

                                  LIFT    DUR.      OPEN        CLOSE      AREA

 Lobe              I8            -----  ------  -----------  -----------  ------

 Centerline      111.36 ATDC   0.001  439.18  103.61 BTDC  155.58 ABDC   24.61

 .050 Lift C/L   111.40 ATDC   0.003  422.93   94.59 BTDC  148.34 ABDC   24.60

 Runout          0.00080       0.006  402.52   84.27 BTDC  138.25 ABDC   24.55

 Peak Open  Acc. 0.000351      0.010  373.34   69.33 BTDC  124.01 ABDC   24.43

 Peak Nose  Acc.-0.000184      0.012  347.36   55.19 BTDC  112.17 ABDC   24.28

 Peak Close Acc. 0.000299      0.015  307.96   36.39 BTDC   91.57 ABDC   24.03

 Lift @ TDC      0.0629        0.018  283.34   26.91 BTDC   76.42 ABDC   23.81

 Valve Lash      0.0180        0.019  278.63   25.56 BTDC   73.07 ABDC   23.76

 Rocker Ratio    1.54          0.020  275.15   24.32 BTDC   70.84 ABDC   23.73

 Lobe Separation -----         0.050  233.46    5.32 BTDC   48.13 ABDC   23.03

 Minimum Flat                  0.100  196.55   12.92 ATDC   29.47 ABDC   21.72

 Follower Dia.   0.7121        0.150  163.96   29.22 ATDC   13.18 ABDC   19.53

                               0.200  128.66   46.93 ATDC    4.41 BBDC   16.58

                               0.225  108.09   57.21 ATDC   14.70 BBDC   14.16

                               0.250   83.24   69.71 ATDC   27.05 BBDC   11.18

                               0.275   47.53   87.59 ATDC   44.87 BBDC    6.45

                               0.28707  --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

                               0.42409  --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

 

EXHAUST

                                                                               

                                  LIFT    DUR.      OPEN        CLOSE      AREA

 Lobe              E8            -----  ------  -----------  -----------  ------

 Centerline      107.36 BTDC   0.001  442.45  138.90 BBDC  123.54 ATDC   24.88

 .050 Lift C/L   106.98 BTDC   0.003  425.83  131.68 BBDC  114.15 ATDC   24.86

 Runout          0.00030       0.006  405.15  121.46 BBDC  103.69 ATDC   24.82

 Peak Open  Acc. 0.000345      0.010  376.02  105.70 BBDC   90.32 ATDC   24.69

 Peak Nose  Acc.-0.000201      0.012  354.71   92.33 BBDC   82.38 ATDC   24.57

 Peak Close Acc. 0.000294      0.015  318.52   74.98 BBDC   63.54 ATDC   24.34

 Lift @ TDC      0.0746        0.018  291.61   65.62 BBDC   46.00 ATDC   24.12

 Valve Lash      0.0180        0.019  284.81   64.16 BBDC   40.65 ATDC   24.04

 Rocker Ratio    1.54          0.020  279.24   62.88 BBDC   36.36 ATDC   23.98

 Lobe Separation -----         0.050  234.35   44.15 BBDC   10.20 ATDC   23.24

 Minimum Flat                  0.100  197.31   26.05 BBDC    8.73 BTDC   21.92

 Follower Dia.   0.7141        0.150  165.00    9.89 BBDC   24.89 BTDC   19.90

                               0.200  129.90    7.71 ABDC   42.39 BTDC   16.82

                               0.225  109.57   17.89 ABDC   52.54 BTDC   14.66

                               0.250   85.29   29.96 ABDC   64.75 BTDC   11.77

                               0.275   50.97   47.14 ABDC   81.89 BTDC    6.97

                               0.28895  --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

                               0.42699  --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

 

http://ford-y-block.com 

20 miles east of San Diego, 20 miles north of Mexico

Frank,

Agree on checking timing events at the same lift.  Ref. my reply to John Mummert.

I think the question is what camshaft was used in the 285 hp engine.  To date, no one has been able to produce any documentation to accurately answer that question.

Re the aluminum intake manifold casting source, everything that I have seen indicates it was Schmeller in Cleveland.  Back in 1957, Cleveland and Windsor Foundries only poured gray iron.  Sheffield opened in 1957, but a majority (possibly all) of their products were aluminum die casting. 

Dearborn Steel Tubing machined the FE engine aluminum intake manifolds, manufactured the linkage, and assembled these induction systems for Ford, and it's reasonably safe to say, based on documentation, they also machined and assembled the 312 8V systems.     

Regards,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

As stated earlier, Ford supplied two different blower camshafts, EDB-6250-D (290 deg) and the EDB-6250-E (302 deg), however both carried the same service part number of B7A-6250-C.  

 

Looking at the b/p timing events at .050" and .100" lift to keep everything "apples to apples".

I had to round the degrees a bit as the info is in lobe lift (to .000000") by degree. 

 

EDB-D = 234 deg and 198 deg

Max lobe lift = .289630"

 

EDB-E = 224 deg and 192 deg

Max lobe lift = .294912"

 

From your data I see 233.46/234.35 deg and 196.55/197.31 deg

Max lobe lift = .28707"/.28895"

This looks like the EDB-D cam to me.

 

You didn't mention what the "over the counter cam" timing events are, but I assume they will relate to the EDB-E cam b/p data.

 

Did Wally's cam have any distinguishing marks or identification either cast or stamped in?  Any photos of the camshaft that you can post? 

 

Regards,

Dennis

 

 

  

 

 

hey john, would karol have any info, or mabey someone knows smokey unick. he raced fords back before gm started financeing him in 57.

 lincoln/merc. y-blocks &mel's                                                               bucyrus, ohio.

By dual valve springs, is this two separate round/oval wire springs or a valve spring with damper, i.e. B6A-6513-D?

There were a couple of Product Service letters (PSL's) that discussed the two valve springs,  The S/C engines are normally built with the standard camshaft B7A-6250-B and single valve springs.  Domestic Special Order (DSO) engines are built with the high lift cam B7A-6250-C and use additional valve dampener springs.  Another one discusses engine failures on 8V and S/C units can be corrected by replacing the existing components with the B6A-6513-D Spring and Damper Assy, along with the B7A-6565-A Push Rod and B6A-6514-A Retainer.

Back to the subject of Gate Releases, do any exist calling out the DSO supercharged engine option (not just Supercharged option)?

Regards,

Dennis

  

Here are some specs from an old hardfaced E-2 taken from a 256 Merc engine.

                  C:\Program Files\AudieTech\CPP\Isky E-2.CPP  

ISKY E-2 INTAKE        

ADVANCED 4 DEGREES                                                                                              

                                  LIFT    DUR.      OPEN        CLOSE      AREA

 Lobe              I8            -----  ------  -----------  -----------  ------

 Centerline      107.89 ATDC   0.001  421.24   98.77 BTDC  142.48 ABDC   22.36

 .050 Lift C/L   108.15 ATDC   0.003  400.73   89.97 BTDC  130.76 ABDC   22.34

 Runout          0.00070       0.006  370.22   76.64 BTDC  113.57 ABDC   22.26

 Peak Open  Acc. 0.000365      0.010  330.58   58.67 BTDC   91.91 ABDC   22.11

 Peak Nose  Acc.-0.000255      0.012  312.31   49.70 BTDC   82.61 ABDC   22.00

 Peak Close Acc. 0.000314      0.015  284.53   36.17 BTDC   68.36 ABDC   21.81

 Lift @ TDC      0.0478        0.018  265.59   25.63 BTDC   59.95 ABDC   21.67

 Valve Lash      0.0180        0.019  261.37   23.19 BTDC   58.19 ABDC   21.61

 Rocker Ratio    1.54          0.020  257.90   21.18 BTDC   56.71 ABDC   21.58

 Lobe Separation -----         0.050  214.36    0.97 ATDC   35.33 ABDC   20.85

 Minimum Flat                  0.100  178.83   18.27 ATDC   17.10 ABDC   19.49

   Follower Dia. 0.7825        0.150  148.74   33.01 ATDC    1.75 ABDC   17.56

                               0.200  116.29   49.02 ATDC   14.70 BBDC   14.66

                               0.225   96.85   58.74 ATDC   24.41 BBDC   12.57

                               0.250   73.14   70.67 ATDC   36.19 BBDC    9.72

                               0.275   37.72   88.74 ATDC   53.55 BBDC    5.02

                               0.28383  --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

                               0.41909  --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

 

 ISKY E-2 EXHAUST                 C:\Program Files\AudieTech\CPP\Isky E-2.CPP                  

                                                                               

                                  LIFT    DUR.      OPEN        CLOSE      AREA

 Lobe              E8            -----  ------  -----------  -----------  ------

 Centerline      115.40 BTDC   0.001  438.38  149.08 BBDC  109.30 ATDC   22.90

 .050 Lift C/L   114.86 BTDC   0.003  411.83  139.10 BBDC   92.73 ATDC   22.88

 Runout          0.00090       0.006  385.21  127.07 BBDC   78.14 ATDC   22.81

 Peak Open  Acc. 0.000372      0.010  348.76  110.18 BBDC   58.58 ATDC   22.67

 Peak Nose  Acc.-0.000249      0.012  330.85  101.51 BBDC   49.34 ATDC   22.57

 Peak Close Acc. 0.000315      0.015  305.06   89.57 BBDC   35.49 ATDC   22.40

 Lift @ TDC      0.0379        0.018  279.13   76.20 BBDC   22.92 ATDC   22.19

 Valve Lash      0.0180        0.019  272.36   72.45 BBDC   19.91 ATDC   22.12

 Rocker Ratio    1.54          0.020  266.75   69.14 BBDC   17.61 ATDC   22.07

 Lobe Separation 111.6         0.050  216.76   43.24 BBDC    6.48 BTDC   21.28

 Minimum Flat                  0.100  180.68   25.78 BBDC   25.10 BTDC   19.96

   Follower Dia. 0.7856        0.150  150.55   11.08 BBDC   40.53 BTDC   18.08

                               0.200  118.51    4.65 ABDC   56.84 BTDC   15.27

                               0.225   99.45   14.18 ABDC   66.37 BTDC   13.24

                               0.250   76.48   25.73 ABDC   77.80 BTDC   10.25

                               0.275   43.73   42.38 ABDC   93.89 BTDC    5.91

                               0.28682  --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

                               0.42370  --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

http://ford-y-block.com 

20 miles east of San Diego, 20 miles north of Mexico

Dennis, we made a master from a B7A6250C sold in 1963 by Ford dealer. The original had about 2 degrees less duration and .004" more lift. These are the specs of a cam we made with our master. I no longer have the master.

     C:\Program Files\AudieTech\CPP\FMC-EDB.CPP 

B7A-6250C Replacement cam. Sold over Ford parts counter around 1963

Intake and exhaust same lobe

112 degree lobe centers. Shown advanced 4 degrees                 

                                                                                

                                  LIFT    DUR.      OPEN        CLOSE      AREA

 Lobe              I1            -----  ------  -----------  -----------  ------

 Centerline      108.00 ATDC   0.001  347.66   66.99 BTDC  100.66 ABDC   23.72

 .050 Lift C/L   106.55 ATDC   0.003  322.09   55.54 BTDC   86.54 ABDC   23.69

 Runout          0.00030       0.006  294.33   41.75 BTDC   72.59 ABDC   23.63

 Peak Open  Acc. 0.000331      0.010  276.88   32.36 BTDC   64.52 ABDC   23.56

 Peak Nose  Acc.-0.000193      0.012  271.32   29.50 BTDC   61.81 ABDC   23.53

 Peak Close Acc. 0.000356      0.015  264.98   26.18 BTDC   58.80 ABDC   23.49

 Lift @ TDC      0.0690        0.018  259.91   23.59 BTDC   56.32 ABDC   23.45

 Valve Lash      0.0180        0.019  258.42   22.85 BTDC   55.57 ABDC   23.44

 Rocker Ratio    1.54          0.020  256.96   22.10 BTDC   54.86 ABDC   23.42

 Lobe Separation -----         0.050  226.86    6.88 BTDC   39.98 ABDC   22.92

 Minimum Flat                  0.100  193.75   10.01 ATDC   23.76 ABDC   21.69

   Follower Dia. 0.7471        0.150  163.21   25.55 ATDC    8.76 ABDC   19.78

                               0.200  129.33   42.73 ATDC    7.94 BBDC   16.80

                               0.225  109.45   52.83 ATDC   17.72 BBDC   14.69

                               0.250   85.58   64.88 ATDC   29.54 BBDC   11.85

                               0.275   52.69   81.45 ATDC   45.86 BBDC    7.52

                               0.29053  --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

                               0.42941  --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

http://ford-y-block.com 

20 miles east of San Diego, 20 miles north of Mexico