312 285 hp and 312 S/C camshaft info

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By marvh - 14 Years Ago

Dennis:

Here is a camshaft listed as a blower cam for sale on ebay. item number 270650991510

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-1957-FORD-Y-BLOCK-312-SUPERCHARGER-F-CAM-EDB-D-/270650991510?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f040e6396

marv

By marvh - 14 Years Ago

Dennis:
Look at this
ebay item 150511128765

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/y-block-ford-312-nascar-285-hp-2X4-heads-rocker-arms-VC-/150511128765?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230b2990bd

marv

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

Does anyone have an 1957 Isky catalog and can provide a copy of all the various YB cams and their specifications listed in it?

The 1958 Isky catalog specs the E2 cam at 256/256 @ .430". This certainly doesn't match the Ford specs on the 290 or 302 deg cams used in the blower engine. It does appear to represent the baseline 1957 Ford B7A-6250-B 312 245/270 hp cam though.

I realize Isky did change camshaft timing events through certain years yet retain the same identifier, which is why I would like to see what is in their 1957 catalog.

There is also an article on the 292 engine in Popular Hot Rodding Aug 1965 that discusses the Isky E2 cam and the 312 285 hp engine:

Doesn't make sense if the E2 cam duration/lift appear to represent the 312 245/270 hp cam. Maybe the same duration and lift, just the timing events were ground differently?

I started a new thread on this subject to reflect the different subject matter over the previous one titled "I need help identfying the intake".

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

Oldmics (8/18/2010)

Dennis

Seems we are both on the same quest.

I too am seeking a 57/56 Isky catologue to see what cams were availiable and the timing sequences.

I do have one question in reference to how "service parts" are labeled.

In the other post you made reference to camshafts designated as a B7AE part number as opposed to the B7A prefix normally associated with parts.

What does the "AE" designation stand for?

After rereading the Popular Hot Rodding article about Isky offering the B7A 6250-C cam as a service part-I question if that is actually true.

Reason for my doubts is because ALL of those B7A 6250-C cams that I have encountered are ground on Ford identified camshaft billets.

Would Ford have sent Isky blank Ford identified billets to grind there service parts on?

Timing events on all of these sticks would differ due to Ford using S.A.E. measurement reference points and Isky using his .050 reference that he pioneered.

The 285 H.P. engine is listed in the 1957 Ford brochure as an availiable engine option

Oldmics

Re service part labelling -

After 1958 Ford went back to using the Basic Number System. There are four characters in the prefix. The first is the decade, the second the model year. The third represents the Product Line, i.e. - A = Ford (full size). The fourth character represents Design Responsibility, i.e. - A = Ford Division PEO, B = Metal Stamping Division, E = Engine and Foundry Division Product Engineering Office, Z = Ford Parts and Service Office, etc ... .

In 1958 and into 1959, Ford (actually I believe only E&F Div) used what was referred to as "boxcar numbers" on engine components. Pre 1958, either a three letter prefix, i.e. - ECZ EDB, etc ... was generally used for engineering part numbers and a three character prefix, i.e. - B7A, B6T, etc ... was used on service parts.

I agree, the reference that Isky offered the B7A-C cam or the Isky E-2 is the 290 deg blower cam is inaccurate. It is possible that Isky ground service part cams for Ford. However, attempting to document and verify it may be difficult.

This goes back to my question about anyone having one of these relabeled Isky shipping tubes sold as a Ford service part camshaft.

Re your engine brouchure on the 285 hp engine. Is there a date on the brouchure? What does it state about this engine? Can you post a scan?

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

PF Arcand (8/19/2010)

I can't comment for sure on whether or not Ford used the Supercharger cam for their 285 H.P. engine, but considering the timing differences, I doubt it. One thing though, the PHR reprint refers to the the E-2 as having 290 degrees duration. That is incorrect. E-2s were either 256 or 260 degrees depending on the year built. I would bet that the 285 engines used the E-2, because I recall many years ago (1960s) references to it as the cam that Ford used for their Oval track engines.

Below are exerpts from a letter dated March 19, 1970 written by LaVerne Schumann to Bruce Sizemore in Ford Special Vehicles Dept. The purpose of the letter was to encourage Ford to forward info to NHRA to legitimize these special components and detailed specifications on the S/C engine for NHRA Stock classes.

The above is relevant to the 312 S/C engine. Both camshafts were documented. However the "usage" description in the letter does not appear to be accurate.

Re the "lightweight" intake valve. I was never able to find anything on this component. I spoke to a former colleague of mine, Dean McCann, that worked on the S/C program with Sullivan in 1957 and he never heard of it either.

The next exerpt discusses a 312 260 hp engine for both 1956 AND 1957. Both of these reference the Isky E2 cam. BTW, has anyone ever heard of a 1957 312 4V 260 HP engine?

As previously mentioned, this was in a letter "to" Ford, not written by a Ford employee.

I am aware where Special Vehicles created documents to substantiate certain combinations or components to legalize them for sanctioned racing events. Typically AMA Form 40A's were generated to "legitimize" unique combinations or components for racing.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

Oldmics (8/20/2010)

Rudder2fly-the only way to identify what the cam is is to have an analysis done on a machine called a Cam Doctor.

Then compare your Cam Doctor information to the published specs from Isky on the E2 camshaft.

If its the same-then you have a winner.To add to the confusion there are at least 3 different E2 grind specifications from Isky on the E2 camshaft.It depends on what era it was produced.

_________________________________________________________________________________

yalincoln-the Merc M260 used two Holley carbs according to the Merc specs.They never had two Carters from the factory.Both Fords and Merc horsepower ratings were 260 although the only thing shared between the two different setups were the same Holley carbs and the cylinder heads which were ECZ-C.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Dennis

I will post of that information when I get the pile of junk off of my scanner.

It is dated 11/8/56

Oldmics

Oldmics,

Thanks for your post. Any factory documents I saw indicated both 1956 260 hp engines used a pair of the EDB-9510-C Holleys. However, anything could be possible. Were the Carter carbs ever documented in any factory paperwork?

I've contacted a couple of former Ford colleagues to see what they may recall, or if anyone else may be around that may have some information. I think the teo people that could best answer these questions, Sullivan and Hotton, are no longer with us.

Re the 1957 312-285 hp engine. Has it ever been documented if any of these engines were installed on the assembly line or were they only available as a kit? I wonder if someone claiming a 285 hp E code would have the Gate Release document available from the T-Bird Club or the original bill of sale or window sticker to substantiate it being the 285 hp version. Is anyone aware if any Gate Releases exist listing the 312-285 hp engine?

This is similar to proving a factory 1961 390 Hi-Performance car. All versions, 300, 375, or 401 had a Z engine code in the VIN. There were several unique components that identify a 375 or 401 hp car, but since they are basically bolt on, one could be "buiilt". Original paperwork, either the original window sticker or the bill of sale, were the only actual ways to demonstrate it was an original HP car.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

pegleg (8/22/2010)

Paul,

We need to be certain that the timing events were measured at the same lift when comparing different cams. My supercharger book lists some very strange lift numbers for the cams. Today we compare everthing at .050, makes life much simpler, obviously. I've not seen yet, maybe I missed it, what cam was installed in the 285 hp engines.

I don't think I said the 285 was an E-2, I stated I thought it might have been ground by ISKY. I would be somewhat surprised to discover the cams were machined by a Ford facility. The volumes are pretty low for those guys. Same thing for the intake manifolds, I'd quess those were done by Eck foundry in Manitowoc Wisconson, or another Aluminum foundry, not at Cleveland or Windsor. I don't think either captive foundry had Aluminum facilities in the 50's.

Frank,

Agree on checking timing events at the same lift. Ref. my reply to John Mummert.

I think the question is what camshaft was used in the 285 hp engine. To date, no one has been able to produce any documentation to accurately answer that question.

Re the aluminum intake manifold casting source, everything that I have seen indicates it was Schmeller in Cleveland. Back in 1957, Cleveland and Windsor Foundries only poured gray iron. Sheffield opened in 1957, but a majority (possibly all) of their products were aluminum die casting.

Dearborn Steel Tubing machined the FE engine aluminum intake manifolds, manufactured the linkage, and assembled these induction systems for Ford, and it's reasonably safe to say, based on documentation, they also machined and assembled the 312 8V systems.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

John Mummert (8/22/2010)

Wally Kirstein sent me what I am convinced is an original F-Code cam as described in the manual. It is quite different than the over the counter cams that were sold as B7A6250C.

Here are the Cam Doctor specs:

EDB CAM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAM PRO PLUS Cam Lift Report 8/22/2010

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INTAKE

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe I8 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 111.36 ATDC 0.001 439.18 103.61 BTDC 155.58 ABDC 24.61

.050 Lift C/L 111.40 ATDC 0.003 422.93 94.59 BTDC 148.34 ABDC 24.60

Runout 0.00080 0.006 402.52 84.27 BTDC 138.25 ABDC 24.55

Peak Open Acc. 0.000351 0.010 373.34 69.33 BTDC 124.01 ABDC 24.43

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000184 0.012 347.36 55.19 BTDC 112.17 ABDC 24.28

Peak Close Acc. 0.000299 0.015 307.96 36.39 BTDC 91.57 ABDC 24.03

Lift @ TDC 0.0629 0.018 283.34 26.91 BTDC 76.42 ABDC 23.81

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 278.63 25.56 BTDC 73.07 ABDC 23.76

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 275.15 24.32 BTDC 70.84 ABDC 23.73

Lobe Separation ----- 0.050 233.46 5.32 BTDC 48.13 ABDC 23.03

Minimum Flat 0.100 196.55 12.92 ATDC 29.47 ABDC 21.72

Follower Dia. 0.7121 0.150 163.96 29.22 ATDC 13.18 ABDC 19.53

0.200 128.66 46.93 ATDC 4.41 BBDC 16.58

0.225 108.09 57.21 ATDC 14.70 BBDC 14.16

0.250 83.24 69.71 ATDC 27.05 BBDC 11.18

0.275 47.53 87.59 ATDC 44.87 BBDC 6.45

0.28707 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.42409 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

EXHAUST

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe E8 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 107.36 BTDC 0.001 442.45 138.90 BBDC 123.54 ATDC 24.88

.050 Lift C/L 106.98 BTDC 0.003 425.83 131.68 BBDC 114.15 ATDC 24.86

Runout 0.00030 0.006 405.15 121.46 BBDC 103.69 ATDC 24.82

Peak Open Acc. 0.000345 0.010 376.02 105.70 BBDC 90.32 ATDC 24.69

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000201 0.012 354.71 92.33 BBDC 82.38 ATDC 24.57

Peak Close Acc. 0.000294 0.015 318.52 74.98 BBDC 63.54 ATDC 24.34

Lift @ TDC 0.0746 0.018 291.61 65.62 BBDC 46.00 ATDC 24.12

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 284.81 64.16 BBDC 40.65 ATDC 24.04

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 279.24 62.88 BBDC 36.36 ATDC 23.98

Lobe Separation ----- 0.050 234.35 44.15 BBDC 10.20 ATDC 23.24

Minimum Flat 0.100 197.31 26.05 BBDC 8.73 BTDC 21.92

Follower Dia. 0.7141 0.150 165.00 9.89 BBDC 24.89 BTDC 19.90

0.200 129.90 7.71 ABDC 42.39 BTDC 16.82

0.225 109.57 17.89 ABDC 52.54 BTDC 14.66

0.250 85.29 29.96 ABDC 64.75 BTDC 11.77

0.275 50.97 47.14 ABDC 81.89 BTDC 6.97

0.28895 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.42699 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

As stated earlier, Ford supplied two different blower camshafts, EDB-6250-D (290 deg) and the EDB-6250-E (302 deg), however both carried the same service part number of B7A-6250-C.

Looking at the b/p timing events at .050" and .100" lift to keep everything "apples to apples".

I had to round the degrees a bit as the info is in lobe lift (to .000000") by degree.

EDB-D = 234 deg and 198 deg

Max lobe lift = .289630"

EDB-E = 224 deg and 192 deg

Max lobe lift = .294912"

From your data I see 233.46/234.35 deg and 196.55/197.31 deg

Max lobe lift = .28707"/.28895"

This looks like the EDB-D cam to me.

You didn't mention what the "over the counter cam" timing events are, but I assume they will relate to the EDB-E cam b/p data.

Did Wally's cam have any distinguishing marks or identification either cast or stamped in? Any photos of the camshaft that you can post?

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 13 Years Ago

Don Woodruff (5/17/2011)

Just speculation here, In 1957 we have D, E, and F base versions plus what I call the + versions of the E and F (with the "better" cam). Is there a chance there was a D+ version?

Don W

Assuming:

D= 312 4V 245 hp

E = 312 8V 270 hp

E+= 312 8V 285 hp

F = 312 S/C 300 hp

F+ = 312 S/C with Domestic Special Order cam, and no factory HP rating

I don't think there was a D+. After the S/C ban in NASCAR, the 57 Ford hoods had "245 hp" lettered on them. Now whether they were running any "special" camshafts or other components, I don't know. If so, perhaps that could be the "D+" ?

Back in the day, Steve Honnell mentioned they would let him run his S/C 57 T-Bird in the four barrel class if he took the blower belt off, and yet still had the advantage of the DSO cam.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 4 Years Ago

robin (8/27/2017)

.I recently bought a 57 E-code t-bird. I now have reason to believe it is the 285HP version. It has dual valve springs, dual points in the distributor and absolutely none of the options normally found on T-birds. No power anything. No convertible top or port holes, nothing but a radio. I fellow in PA who owns 30 T-Birds believes this is what is called a "street racer"? I found the car by talking to a paint salesman that used to ride in it in high school. His buddy's father was the original owner. The car developed a flat cam and was parked on Vashon Island WA in the salt air for 51 years. Needless to say it is a mess, but it is all there and has never been rebuilt. They did repaint the hood though due to all the stack fires they had. I will be rebuilding this engine in the winter time and will see just what the cam is like. I have also ordered the original factory invoice in hopes it sheds some light on the 285HP issue. Will this help shed any light on the subject?

Has there ever been an update on what camshaft/grind data/valve lift ... was in this engine?
Regards,
Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

Hoosier Hurricane (9/29/2010)

Dennis:

I alwys thought it odd that NHRA accepted the Engle 124. True, it was 290 degrees duration, but the exhaust timing was slightly different, indicating a lobe center change. I guess they didn't check lobe centers back then. And yes, I ran the 124 back in my stocker days.

John,

Found an old ad on the Engle #324. The Aug 1969 Car Craft article on Walker's blown car indicates NHRA accepted Engle #124 at 290 deg .450". Do you have the detailed timing event grind specs on the #124 camshaft?

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

John,

Thank you for posting the Engle info.

I am now looking for ANY information on Ford camshaft ECZ-6250-C. If anyone has a Ford Parts Catalog, Master Cross Reference List, Price List, Obsolecence Book, or other reference, document, magazine article, etc ... that mentions or lists this cam, please advise.

I am trying to determine if this in fact was an actual Ford part and if so, what the application and/or specification was on it.

Also looking for anyone that has one of these "Isky camshaft shipping tubes" repackaged or relabeled as a Ford service part. Allegedly a supercharger cam, but could be others. I've heard this story, but does anyone have the packaging or "first hand" experience re this.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

John Mummert (10/19/2010)

I had another look at the blower cam i got from Wally Kistein last night. It is ground on a Ford core and the casting is clearly marked EDBD. The snout of the came is marked in buzz pencil: B7A6250C. The oil groove in the center journal had been heavily modified.

The short duration over the counter B7A6250C cams I've seen where ground on aftermarket cores.

John,

Please clarify what you mean by an "aftermarket core". Any markings or distinguishing features?

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

John Mummert (10/20/2010)

Dennis, most of the older aftermarket cores I've seen have YB-1 cast in them. You will usually find CWC on them. We long believed that CWC was the name of the foundry. I have been told that it inidcates the matterial the core is made of. Don't know which is true.

Newer cores have the number 3358 B-S.

Factory cores have FoMoCo on them.

Early Y-Block cams were not hardened and Rockwell in the mid 30c range. According to a Hollenders interchange manual I have Ford began hardening the cores in 1958. I have not confirmed this date.

The last Y-Block cams marked CAB-X are definitely hardened and use cast lifters

Form the 60's thru mid 2000's cam core Rockwell was in the 48-50c range. I'm told that new cores are supposed to be around 52c

Lifters must Rockwell at least 3 points higher than the cam core to survive.

I was thinking you'd say CWC foundry.

ECK-C, ECK-D, EDB-B, EDB-D, and EDB-E camshaft lobe hardness b/p spec was 40 Scleroscope (Rc 30)min.

The lobes on later cams were induction hardened to Rc 60-50.

Hardness of the tappet crown were:

EAA-C cast iron Rc 50 min

EAA-D 5120 steel Rc 58 min

5752073 and C3AE-A cast iron Rc 55 min

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 13 Years Ago

DualQuad312 (5/14/2011)

Hi there I noticed the discussion on camshafts and it perked my interest....Actually Ford used a Mercury camshaft called the M-260 for the 56 dealer code dual quad and the "street" 57 dual quad. It came out sometime in 1956 on what I believe is called the Nascar or power pack setup...Ford used this cam as well on the 270hp dual quads in 57....The higher perfomance dual quad, the 285hp setup used what was called the RPM 300 camshaft.....It was an Isky grind....It was not a ford camshaft....This camshaft was claimed to develop 300hp...It required dual dampened valve springs and single piece retainers for the higher rpm...5/16 tubular push rods were also used, the distributor had static timing of 12 degrees vereses the typical 3 and 6 degrees depending wether you had a stickshift or automatic...There was actually five differant camshafts available in 1957...You had the stock 256 degree, the mercury 260 degree, the isky rpm 300 cam, and two differant blower cams available....I have the grind #'s if interested...It's taken a while in talking to people and a bit of researching to find this information...

jeff

Jeff,

Would you please post, or at least reference, the specific documentation and resources that support your statements, particularly on the 1957 Ford 312 285 hp camshaft.

Thru the years there has been much "hearsay" on the 56-57 Ford/Mercury 312 high performance camshafts that has been recently disproved by factual documentation.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 13 Years Ago

Missouri Mike (5/16/2011)

I assume at some point someone contacted Isky to see if they had any knowledge or data pertaining to these questions?

Dr John Craft states in his book "Vintage & Historic Stock Cars" that Lincoln/Mercury Racer Bill Stroppe built a "fleet" of 1957 Mercurys to counter Holman-Moody Ford backed operation.

He used a 368ci Y block with "an "Isky" hot rod cam that conveniently carried a Mercury parts number".

For what it's worth, I found it interesting.

Missouri Mke

Yes, 'Oldmics' inteviewed Ed Iskenderian and I posted the discussion notes in another thread on this forum: VERY RARE Y-BLOCK KIT ON EBAY

Link: http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic52451-3-9.aspx

If anyone has any new tangible information on the 1956 - 1957 312 High Performance engines or camshafts, particularily the 1957 285 hp, it would be most certainly welcome. From work, I personally knew some of the individuals that worked on the 8V and S/C programs, and have already talked to all that are still with us to help put the puzzle back together, along with researching available engineering information on these engines that was still available before I retired from Ford. I recently started contacting the families of deceased key individuals to see if they still had any info re this. These questions, probably should of been asked 20+ years ago, when everyone was still around.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

Oldmics (8/22/2010)

A good buddy of mine has an E Bird.He is not the original owner but did acquire it from the original owners.It was quite a runner.

Back in the 70s he had the engine rebuilt.The machine shop commeneted on the use of the dual valve springs from the factory.

The cam was replaced.Unfortunatly it was discarded.

We believe that since it had dual valve springs from the factory that it was a 285 H.P. engine.

His gate release form does not mention anything about a 285 H.P. option.

Thats as close as we have gotten.

It would be great if the CTCI would allow the information from the gate release forms collected from the "E" and "F" cars to be known.

Oldmics

By dual valve springs, is this two separate round/oval wire springs or a valve spring with damper, i.e. B6A-6513-D?

There were a couple of Product Service letters (PSL's) that discussed the two valve springs, The S/C engines are normally built with the standard camshaft B7A-6250-B and single valve springs. Domestic Special Order (DSO) engines are built with the high lift cam B7A-6250-C and use additional valve dampener springs. Another one discusses engine failures on 8V and S/C units can be corrected by replacing the existing components with the B6A-6513-D Spring and Damper Assy, along with the B7A-6565-A Push Rod and B6A-6514-A Retainer.

Back to the subject of Gate Releases, do any exist calling out the DSO supercharged engine option (not just Supercharged option)?

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

Re 285 hp camshaft: I have contacted a number of former Ford colleagues who were there back then, re what cam it was and the specs. To date, it appears the discussion keeps centering around either the blower or an Isky grind. However, they in turn are contacting others. I'm hoping someone turns up something tangible, or perhaps even an actual camshaft. Stay tuned.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

glrbird (9/2/2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/57-Y-Block-CAM-Thunderbird-EDB-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem41501b208cQQitemZ280516829324QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

This Guy says this is an E code cam!!!

Yes, the stock 312 270 hp 8V E code is the 256 deg cam. This same cam was used across the board in 1957 from the 272 to the 312 300 hp S/C engine. Yes, it is an EDB cam, but to clarify it is the EDB-6250-C, not D or E cam which were the high lift cams used in the supercharged engine.

To date, no one has been able substantiate with documentation exactly what cam was used in the 312 285 hp 8V E Code engine.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

I contacted an older NHRA Tech man who is a Ford guy to see what may be listed on the 312-285 hp engine. His reply was:

"I checked thru all of my info which I copied while in California concerning 1957 Fords and did not find any reference to a 312-285 engine. The only 312's shown are the 245, 270, and 300. It does not even show up in my old class guide book which covers back to 1950 Fords."

So it appears that NHRA never recognized this combination.

Does anyone recall anyone running in drag racing a 57 Ford with a 312-285 hp engine in Stock class?

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

More food for thought on the 1957 Ford 312 - 285 hp engine/camshaft:

Everyone I contacted to date seems to agree it was a cam change, but what the cam specs are, no one seems to know. The story about the blower cam being an Isky is certainly engrained. Using basic logic, the 285 hp cam should be hotter than the std 256 degree Ford cam for 1957 used in the 270 hp engine. I would also expect it to be the same or hotter than any of the 1956 race cams. In addition, the 1957 engine would also have the larger intake valve and 1.54 ratio rockers to help raise horsepower from 260 to 270.

Another item I looked at was part number allocation. Ford part numbers are issued sequentially. All of the B7A-6250-A thru E part numbers are spoken for other applications. Likewise, EDB-6250-A thru E. It may of had an ECZ prefix, but again I didn't find any ECZ cams that weren't already used for a different application. If a unique 285 hp camshaft existed, it should of been issued a Ford part number. Nor does a unique cam appear in the 1957 Police Interceptor Parts List.

Some think the 285 hp cam and 300 hp high lift blower cam are one and the same. The EDB-6250-D blower cam was released for production on 12/5/56. This release date incidently is close to other supercharger related components, early Dec 1956. If this cam was also used on the 285 hp engine I would expected it to have an earlier release date.

Does anyone recall any photos or articles on Ford's with a 285 HP engine in it?

I plan to keep searching on this subject, stay tuned.

Regards,

Dennis

By Dennis K. - 14 Years Ago

PF Arcand (9/27/2010)

A further note; It does not surprise me that the NHRA did not have documentation on the 285 engine. Ford's factory racing program was not involved in Drag racing in 1957. It's involvement was with NASCAR & to a lesser extent the USAC. The N.H.R.A was a fledgling organization in 1957, not the professional, (pro Chevrolet) outfit it is now. Also, many drag strips were still independent in 1957.

I cannot speak to why NHRA did not have the 285 hp engine listed, however they did have the 245, 270, and 300 hp engines listed. The majority of the 312's, particularily 300 hp supercharged cars, campaigned in NHRA drag racing were in 60's and not only were they winners they were National Record Holders in their respective classes.

In addition, I don't think NHRA differentiated between the 300 hp supercharged cars running the standard and the high lift camshaft, they all ran the same class and everyone ran the high lift cam or the NHRA accepted Engle #124. Perhaps it was the same case with the 270 and 285 hp versions.

Regards,

Dennis

By pegleg - 14 Years Ago

Paul,

By pegleg - 14 Years Ago

Tom, that's cool info!

Paul, any chance that you could scan and post a copy of that sales brochure. I'd really like to see that!

By pegleg - 14 Years Ago

[quote][b]" I get the distinct impression that some of the inquiries are intended to infer that some Fords were running in NASCAR & USAC illegally."

Paul, I didn't mean that Ford was cheating, or at least not any more than anyone else. I know for a fact that the Pontiacs ran Isky stuff until the McKeller cams were developed. Keikhauffers Hemi's were turning 6000 + rpm's etc (hard to do with OE hydraulics). And yes I'm aware that they (Chrysler) offered a solid lifter 400hp version. Chevy had Duntov around by then etc. etc. They all used aftyermarket parts.

Actually I'm pretty sure that this is the basis for most of the confusion with the E code cars. The teams, Holmann Moody and others probably tried everything they could get their hands on and tried to get the factorys to put numbers on the stuff that worked. Original or not. Most of the parts raced probably never made it into the parts system. The biggest problem will be that the people who were involved are almost all gone now. All we have left is the rumors.

By pegleg - 14 Years Ago

Tell them where IHRA got the specs for the F codes!! BigGrin

By pegleg - 14 Years Ago

There's some history for ya folks! Tongue

By pegleg - 13 Years Ago

Jeff,

Welcome to the group. As you've discovered there's a considerable amount of talented people with serious knowledge of Y blocks in general, and the dual quad, and F codes in particular on this site. Dennis is a retired Ford Engineer, John Feistritzer has raced F codes fo over 40 years, Ted Eaton, retired engineer, has built some of the quickest Y blocks ever. Etc. Etc.

We welcome everybody that likes Y's, they even let me yap occasionally.

By pegleg - 13 Years Ago

Jeff, Mines a 57 "F" code Custom 300. Currently a 3 speed OD. The car's a clone, built from a California Six automatic. I race a Pure Stock series here in the Midwest with it acouple times a year. It's run a best of 13.71 @ 105 mph in Stock form.

By pegleg - 13 Years Ago

Jeff, What Ted said. The T89 is a later, supposedly stronger version. the R11 is a stringer version of thew OD unit. Nothing in it except the speedo drive gear intercahnges with an R10.

Only you can tell if there's enough gear, if it pulls well in OD with the 3.89's, keep them.

By pegleg - 7 Years Ago

Miker, Let me know what you find. Looks like a real one to me.

By pegleg - 7 Years Ago

Mike do it again, I cannot find a message. (peglegrice@frontier.com)

By glrbird - 14 Years Ago

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/57-Y-Block-CAM-Thunderbird-EDB-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem41501b208cQQitemZ280516829324QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

This Guy says this is an E code cam!!!

By PF Arcand - 14 Years Ago

For what it's worth, I also have a copy of a 57 sales brochure that includes reference to both the 270 H.P. & 285 H.P. engines. So, it seems very unlikely that either were only sold as kits.

By PF Arcand - 14 Years Ago

Frank: Sorry, don't think I can copy & send it. My description of a brochure is a bit misleading. It's a very large photo copy, approx 14" x 20-1/2" & was possibly from a newspaper Ad. I found it at an Auto Swap meet.

By PF Arcand - 14 Years Ago

The more I read here & in YBM about E & F code engines the more confusing it gets. I get the distinct impression that some of the inquiries are intended to infer that some Fords were running in NASCAR & USAC illegally. (when you beat a Chevrolet, you must be cheating..isn't that true?) As far as the dual 4 Bbl engines run by Ford in NASCAR in 1956 are concerned, if Ford's cams or other parts were illegal, it would likely have been discovered. For one thing, after a bad start to the season, late in the year Fords starting winning regularly, in spite of the Kiekhaufers teams Chrysler/Dodge juggernaut. I've read that Kiekhaufer protested the factory backed cars several times. Nearly all of his protests were denied...

By PF Arcand - 14 Years Ago

This is a confusing issue. Eickman's book lists the std 1957 cam as P.N. B7A 6250-B @ 256 degrees (advertised) & .400" & .420" lift with 1.54 rockers. On a separate page it lists the High lift supercharged cam as P.N. B7A 6250-C @ .290" intake & exhaust cam lift. Open & closing timings is given but no advertised duration. The timings are very different from the std cam.

By PF Arcand - 14 Years Ago

Dennis: the only thing I've seen was the Ad that I referred to much earlier in this discussion. The sales pitch was that the new 57 Ford was like riding in a ships stateroom, with an outline of a ship behind it etc. However, at the bottom of the Ad in small print is a reference to the availability of a Super V-8 of 270 H.P. & also available a version with "up to" 285 H.P... This isn't the first discussion on the subject of high performance cams for Y-Blocks. It's been hit on before both here & in YBM. All I can say is that from my memory way back, we were told that the Oval Track (non supercharged) cam in 1957 & possibly in 1956, was an Isky E-2 grind. As mentioned previously, since it would have been a limited sale item, my best guess is that Fords racing management sent Ford blanks to Isky to be ground. If they had used Isky's blanks, they would likely have been declared illegal. Unfortunately, other than the Ad, I can't document any of this...

By PF Arcand - 14 Years Ago

By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago

Unfortunately the tube I.D. isn't readable. As Oldmics asked, what are the markings on the cam? If it's a genuine EDB 6250-D cam, it's an original 1957 std cam. That cam is not usually available from most suppliers, as it was superceeded years ago by milder grinds from the past or finally the 1964 Cab X grind which is a truck grind. (some of this data is from J. Mummert's article in Y-Block Mag., issue # 77-2006) This happened when the Y-Block was religated to being a base engine in 1958 by the intro of the F.E. series engines That cam has more duration & lift than all the other std cams Ford issued, other than the supercharger grinds & possibly (?) the Isky E-2 which was reportedly used in the 57- 285 H.P. 2-4 Bbl engines... The only company that I know of, that claims to have that profile in stock, is Oregon Cams in Vancouver WA. If I recall, they sell the bare cam as of 2015 for $150.00 on a new core.

By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago

O.K. now I'm confused, based on Oldmics posting. In the article & chart by John Mummert I referred to above, his chart shows the "std" 1957 cam as an EDB, but the chart does not include any suffix # or letters. Than he refers to it in the article as the 245 H.P. "D" code cam.. Is that in error?

By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago

Man is this a confusing subject!.. However, I think I've figured out why J.M.'s 2006 article referred to the std 1957 EDB cam ( as listed on the chart) in the following write up as a "D" code. That Letter is on a car's Vin #, designating a car equipped with a 312 engine! !.. It was not intended as a reference to the supercharger cam. ..

By PF Arcand - 7 Years Ago

This may have validity or not, & has been mentioned in the past. The most popular cam for Y-Blocks, particularly for Oval Track, was the Isky E-2 Revmaster. So, is it possible that this same grind was used by Ford, for the so called 285 H.P. engine?

By PF Arcand - 4 Years Ago

Oldmics is on to something with his comment re the existing 1957 Camshaft! For the record, all Ford rebuilds after 1957 were with pre 1957 spec cams, which are a fair amount milder than the '57. If that is a '57 spec one & has not been run, someone should arrange to have it"documented" in some way!.. As far as I'm aware, there is only one Camshaft shop in the USA, that has a genuine copy of that grind on hand to work from. That shop is Oregon Cams in Vancouver Washington. (just across the Columbia river from Oregon).. I believe that "Ted" obtained a copy of that Cam at a customer's request, not that long ago. As far as I recall, the specs were correct or very close to factory .... As for the mystery of the "E" code cam that has been discussed for some time, it occurred to me that it may be tied in with the "fast one" that G.M. pulled at the 1957 meeting of the "big three" that resulted in the "dumb move" by Ford brass, headed by Rob't McNammara, of buying into the G.M rep's proposal of no advertising or promotion of racing or high performance. Ford management thought they were dealing with a straight up people. Little did they know!. There after, all subsequent Ford literature had nearly all references to high periformance of any sort, deleted...

By Ol Ford Guy - 14 Years Ago

Everything I have read said the E & F code cars came with the same cam as a D Code. The E&F code cars however all came with dual valve springs. My E Code car with original cam idles as smooth as you could imagine. The optional 285 and 300+ Export cams were over the counter. It sounds like there was some variance in these cams. I don't think Ford ever listed the HP for an F code car with the export cam.

By Don Woodruff - 13 Years Ago

I once looked at a 57 "E" bird at a dealer who specialized in 55-6-7 birds in Cedar Rapids, Ia, Tony something. I remember him saying he thought it was an original because it had tubular push rods and dual valve springs. It had a stock idle, ran good, price was right but some how it just did not click with me. Annother person that maybe a good source of information would be Verne Schumann of Blue Grass Ia. He runs a parts business specializing in circle track engine parts, and still stocks Y parts. He advertises ocassionally in the Y block magazine. His business phone is 563-381-2416 I do not know how often is there. I think he ran F codes. I do know he "posted" G heads with bolts through the valve spring area. He also ran a NHRA record holding 61 Starliner. Very interesting and inventive guy.

By Don Woodruff - 13 Years Ago

Just speculation here, In 1957 we have D, E, and F base versions plus what I call the + versions of the E and F (with the "better" cam). Is there a chance there was a D+ version?

Don W

By yalincoln - 14 Years Ago

the 260 hp was the 56 merc. 312 with 2x4's and a special cam, ( e-2 ) mabey. this bullitin has been posted before. when i rebuilt my friends 57 t-bird e code 312 it had a isky rpm 300 in it. we believe the car was raced back in the day.

By yalincoln - 14 Years Ago

also the 260 merc's used carter carbs instead of holleys. fords were 255 hp in 56 with holleys.

By yalincoln - 14 Years Ago

hey john, would karol have any info, or mabey someone knows smokey unick. he raced fords back before gm started financeing him in 57.

By yalincoln - 7 Years Ago

when I rebuilt my friends E-bird 312 that he bought in 72 we found that it had been raced back in the day, was well worn and needed to be bored. it had a isky 300 cam that we sent back to the company to be reground to company specs. they had installed a switch on the shifter for the overdrive! it was at carlile, pa. this year!

By Y block Billy - 7 Years Ago

a list of casting dates on block, intake, heads and other components would be good information for all to know also! Great find and appreciate your respect and restoration of it.

By Y block Billy - 7 Years Ago

has anybody discussed any of this with Verne Schumann and or last time I spoke to Holman and Moody they said the old guy who made the Y block cams for them was still with them, Maybe he knows something about the elusive 385 HP cam? Would hurt to call them and have a chat.

By KULTULZ - 4 Years Ago

I do have one question in reference to how "service parts" are labeled.

In the other post you made reference to camshafts designated as a B7AE part number as opposed to the B7A prefix normally associated with parts.

What does the "AE" designation stand for?

After rereading the Popular Hot Rodding article about Isky offering the B7A 6250-C cam as a service part-I question if that is actually true.

Reason for my doubts is because ALL of those B7A 6250-C cams that I have encountered are ground on Ford identified camshaft billets.

Would Ford have sent Isky blank Ford identified billets to grind there service parts on?

FOMOCO used different variations in their PN SYSTEM over the years.

B7A identifies as a SERVICE REPLACEMENT PN first released for the 1957 model run.
B7AE identifies as either a SVC REPLACEMENT PN or an ENG PN ( used usually 1959-1961)

A = Full Size FORD/MERC / E = ENGINE DESIGN GROUP.

FORD began the P&A PN SYSTEM in 1959 and there were subtle changes in form. Gone was the previous SYSTEM that showed as PN PREFIX ECZ (Engine Series ID).(example only).

Read this PSL and it's publication date and it should show why there were more several designs using the same SVC PN -

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/ea303907-c393-484c-8c08-b389.jpg

CAM - 1957 SC - B7A 6250-C - MPC - Revised FEB 1961 CHANGE NO. 41

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/a1562620-4030-45e0-9715-7da2.jpg

I hope this info helps.

Dennis,

I did not mean to steal your thunder. Sorry ...

Re service part labelling -

This goes back to my question about anyone having one of these relabeled Isky shipping tubes sold as a Ford service part camshaft.

Re your engine brouchure on the 285 hp engine. Is there a date on the brouchure? What does it state about this engine? Can you post a scan?

Regards,

Dennis

By KULTULZ - 4 Years Ago

There is evidence showing that the first fifty sets offered came through with CARTER(s). My understanding is there were difficulties with the vacuum secondary's on the 8V install.

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/1299826b-0c64-4c8c-8f13-637d.jpg

SOURCE - http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Multicarbsetups.htm

By KULTULZ - 4 Years Ago

Camshaft EDB-6250-E (Engineering Stamping ID) was a service upgrade for the previous EDB-6250-D (Engineering Stamping ID) both using the same SERVICE PN B7A 6250-C. The PSL PSL-426) is dated MAY 04,1959. It was also to use the updated tappets (B8C 6500-A) introduced in the 1958 model run.

There is your answer to the E-CAM.

I have been following all of this and a few other discussions (such as rocker arm styles). To fully understand all of this will require members to scan and .pdf all info (such as correct period cataloging - instruction sheets - PSL's) and posting them somewhere all can readily access them. Info is now scattered all over the forum(s).

Also, a timeline has to be established as to design change as compared to 1956/57 NASCAR as to parts failure/performance upgrades.

Just another thought. The PN SYSTEM (prior to the 1959 P&A change) used a three character prefix for ENGINE, i.e. EDB for example. This system was used to identify engine series. The first character E identifies as ENGINE. The second character identities intro year of use and the third character narrows down to the exact engine the part was designed for. This was used (along with the P&A) until the 1960 model run where then the P&A SYSTEM was also used for ENGINEERING ID NOS (1957/ ). And of course there was the SEVEN NUMERICAL NUMBERING SYSTEM of 1958/59

Spring 1956 was the design big turning point as it seems all changes were made to accommodate the upcoming NASCAR SEASON. So both were hand in hand.

By miker - 7 Years Ago

Robin, you don't say where you are, just you found the car on Vashon Island. If that's Vashon in WA state one of your best sources of information will be Frank Stubbs in Newcastle WA. I think Frank' s pretty much retired from restoring birds (after at least 40 years), but I've seen him and Cathy (with 2 F code birds, an F code sedan, and her E code 57) 5 or 6 times this summer at various shows. I don't know how many 57 F codes and E codes he has or has restored, but it's a bunch. Might look him up in any case.

By miker - 7 Years Ago

Thanks for the second, Charlie. But you sure hit the "who's who" list for early birds.

By miker - 7 Years Ago

Robin, I don't know enough about E codes to be of any use. There's a chance I'll see Frank tonight at the local show and shine. If so, I'll see if he's available. I'm going to PM you my contact info also.

I'm up in Kent, the deserts a bit hot this time of year.

By miker - 7 Years Ago

Frank, Sent you an email.
Mike

By miker - 7 Years Ago

Resent with an update.

Mike

By miker - 4 Years Ago

I hate to add another level of confusion, but I've been thru this. I ran a 9:1 motor in my bird with the 270 Mummert cam. Great combo. But when I put the Mummert heads on with the small chambers, and went to 10.5:1 detonation became a real problem. We eventually worked it out with the timing curve. I don't pretend to fully understand the issue, but if you're going to less cam and you're at 10.8:1, you might need to look at the dynamic compression ratio as well as the static ratio. Ted Eaton and John Mummert were a lot of help to me on that and I've since done cam change. Hopefully he'll chime in.

By miker - 4 Years Ago

I was running 91-92 octane ethanol gas. Max 10%, but I've never checked it. The high priced racing fuel solved the problem-couldn't afford to drive it with that, but it didn't ping or detonate.

Solving the timing problem was helped by the fact it's a EFI car, and the computer controlled the timing. It doesn't have a smooth curve. If I were doing it again, I'd cut or replace the pistons and get back to 9 or 9.5 static.

I'm outside Seattle, 0 to 600ft above sea level. Whereabouts are you?

By Oldmics - 14 Years Ago

Dennis

Seems we are both on the same quest.

I too am seeking a 57/56 Isky catologue to see what cams were availiable and the timing sequences.

I do have one question in reference to how "service parts" are labeled.

In the other post you made reference to camshafts designated as a B7AE part number as opposed to the B7A prefix normally associated with parts.

What does the "AE" designation stand for?

After rereading the Popular Hot Rodding article about Isky offering the B7A 6250-C cam as a service part-I question if that is actually true.

Reason for my doubts is because ALL of those B7A 6250-C cams that I have encountered are ground on Ford identified camshaft billets.

Would Ford have sent Isky blank Ford identified billets to grind there service parts on?

Timing events on all of these sticks would differ due to Ford using S.A.E. measurement reference points and Isky using his .050 reference that he pioneered.

The 285 H.P. engine is listed in the 1957 Ford brochure as an availiable engine option

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 14 Years Ago

Rudder2fly-the only way to identify what the cam is is to have an analysis done on a machine called a Cam Doctor.

Then compare your Cam Doctor information to the published specs from Isky on the E2 camshaft.

If its the same-then you have a winner.To add to the confusion there are at least 3 different E2 grind specifications from Isky on the E2 camshaft.It depends on what era it was produced.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Dennis

I will post of that information when I get the pile of junk off of my scanner.

It is dated 11/8/56

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 14 Years Ago

A good buddy of mine has an E Bird.He is not the original owner but did acquire it from the original owners.It was quite a runner.

Back in the 70s he had the engine rebuilt.The machine shop commeneted on the use of the dual valve springs from the factory.

The cam was replaced.Unfortunatly it was discarded.

We believe that since it had dual valve springs from the factory that it was a 285 H.P. engine.

His gate release form does not mention anything about a 285 H.P. option.

Thats as close as we have gotten.

It would be great if the CTCI would allow the information from the gate release forms collected from the "E" and "F" cars to be known.

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 14 Years Ago

Ol Ford Guy/Paul J

So the "E" code vehicle that you own has dual valve springs from the factory?

Is it all original and are you the original owner or acquire it from the original owner.

If you think about it there is no reason to add additional springs on the valves if the cam was the regular "D" code camshaft.

Please refer to this previous post about the springs

http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic48238-5-2.aspx

___________________________________________________________________________________

Dennis

Still diggin out my scanner so that I can post that 285 reference.Its under a huge pile!

I did mean the damper springs B6A-6513-D

I made an inquiry to Dave Tulowitzky who has probably seen the majority of the gate release invoices on T Birds that have been released.

He said that he has not yet seen any references to a high H.P. DSO on either the "E" or "F" cars.

He did comment that there may be such a designation,just that he has not yet seen one identified as such.

_______________________________________________________________________________

John Mummert

I concur with the specs you posted on the cam you got from Wally.

It matchs the N.O.S. blower unit that I have .

The E2 specs you posted do not match the 1958 specifications issued by Isky.The E2 you posted the specs on probably is a later E2 version. Isky changed the specs thru the years on the E2.

________________________________________________________________________________

So still no definitive evidience on the 285 cam. Ermm

Oldmics

_______________________________________________________________________________

By Oldmics - 14 Years Ago

The event duration timing marks were measured differently in the good old days as opposed to the common use of measuring event duration at .050.

The Ford measurements were taken at different points such as .005,.009 and other lift points.

The differing measurement points would not match up since Ford never used .050 as a reference point for these cams.

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 13 Years Ago

Jeff

Welcome to the group Smile

You have jumped into a complex topic for your first endever.This is a topic that has eluded Y Block bench racers and experts alike for many years.

The only way to prove what was used is thru hard data documentation from Ford/Mercury or the players who were involved.

In your statements you address the M 260 camshaft setup as by being used by both Ford in there 1956 dual quad Nascar package and also the Mercury M260 race package.

The documented facts are that Mercury used the first Isky E2 grind camshaft for the M260 setup.

Ford had a different grind camshaft which was included in the Nascar package (Ford part# B6A-9000-B) for the Ford 260 horsepower setup.

The M 260 Mercury (the Isky E2) camshaft was assigned a Mercury part number.

The Ford 260 camshaft was assigned a Ford part number.

The camshaft grind as well as the part numbers are different from each other.Merc and Ford were two distinctly different setups.All of this information is documented and verified.

The "street" 1957 dual quad "E" code 270 H.P. engine used the regular camshaft that came with the "D" code engines.This "D" code camshaft was also used in the "F" code blower engines rated 300 H.P.

No special pushrods,heavy valve springs or anything else were in the "E" 270 H.P. and "F" code 300 H.P. standard engines.Those heavy duty parts were used in the optional camshaft packages availiable OR as an upgrade suggested by Technical Service Bulletins.

The engine we are still researching is the "E" code 285 H.P. dual quad engines.

While the 285 H.P. engines are listed in the Ford parts books as engines that were built,there is little information about what they consist of.

Documentation has it that Ford was working on the 285 hi horsepower dual carburated setup and dropped development on it when the blower setup came to birth.

I personally believe that the 285 camshaft is the Phase 1 blower camshaft BUT there is no documentation to back my beliefs.

As for camshafts availiable in 1957-if you have some time research Dennis Ks postings about camshafts.As I recall there were around 10 different styles of cams speced (who knows if they were actually built??) from Ford for the 1957 model year.

There currently is no Ford documentation on file about the Isky RPM 300 ever being installed and called the 285 H.P. version.

A few of those RPM 300 camshafts have been found installed but has always been discovered on an engine that has been rebuilt.

Please as Dennis requested,if you have any documentation post it up.

We need new blood such as yourself to finish up this mystery.

Again welcome to the group!

Oldmics

P.S.-Note to Dennis K

I owe you an explanation on my Ford/Isky derivitive.

I"m still working on it and will get with you on it.

By Oldmics - 4 Years Ago

57ECode
I did look at the report. Its a very through document.
Much more information than what my CamDr would produce.
I agree with Ted that the cam analysis that was done to your stick matchs the specifications for a regular 1957 cam. Nothing race special about it.

Somewhere along the way the original cam supplied in that tube had to have been swapped out. Now a virgin 1957 cam is nothing to sneeze at.
Many folks would want an original/new 1957 cam for their rebuilds as they are no longer availiable .

And the elusive 285 H.P camshaft mystery trudges onward.

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago

Mike
Are there any markings on the camshaft itself?
Oldmics

By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago

EDB 6250 D is the engineering number for part # B7A 6250 C
It is the 1957 Blower camshaft
Let us know what markings are on the bumpstick.

If your considering selling it, I would be interested

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago

The EDB designation (which is the engineering number) for all standard Ford 1957 automobile engines coded as "C"= 292 and "D" = 312 both engines used camshaft EDB-6250-C.

That translates to Fords "Known Part Number" as B7A 6250 B.

I am not familiar with John"s article (and he obviously knows WAY more about Y Blocks than I do)
I would have to guess that he did not include the suffix# in his description about the "C" and "D" code engine camshaft.

The camshaft tube displayed in the post by 57ECODE shows a picture of the tube which has the engineering designation of EDB D printed on the label.
That crosses to Ford"s part number of B7A 6250 C which is the blower camshaft.

NOW - which version of the blower camshaft inside of the tube can only be distinguished by the markings on the camshaft stick itself.
While the label identifys it as an EDB D unit ,inside it may be something different.

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago

Paul
I believe that you have an understanding of the situation.
As you have surmised , the first letter of the VIN code is a reference as to what engine is installed into the vehicle.
While most of us Y Block fans simply refer to the standard horsepower 312 engine"s cam as the "D" code camshaft, that cam was also used in the 292 engine which has a "C" designation in the VIN.
It was also used as the cam in the "E" code VIN, 270 horsepower engines and also in the 300 horsepower standard "F" code VIN designation. Other camshafts were also used in higher horsepower versions of these engines.
The origination of this thread is about what camshaft was used in the 285 H.P. version 312 engine.
I think the confusion lies with the way Ford has two different identifications of their parts, as Parts and Engineering numbers and also Ford Known Parts Number.

Yep - confusing !

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago

Looks like there might be some additional markings on the EDB end. On the side of the bearing journal surface.
Might have a FoMoCo script and other markings.
Any chance for some additional hi definition pictures?

Oldmics

By Oldmics - 4 Years Ago

What is the number on the tube ? Is it B7A 6250-C ? Cant quite reaad it on the picture. Interesting that Ford would have called a stock 57 camshaft Hi Perf

Oldmics

By Missouri Mike - 13 Years Ago

I assume at some point someone contacted Isky to see if they had any knowledge or data pertaining to these questions?

Dr John Craft states in his book "Vintage & Historic Stock Cars" that Lincoln/Mercury Racer Bill Stroppe built a "fleet" of 1957 Mercurys to counter Holman-Moody Ford backed operation.

He used a 368ci Y block with "an "Isky" hot rod cam that conveniently carried a Mercury parts number".

For what it's worth, I found it interesting.

Missouri Mke

By Missouri Mike - 13 Years Ago

Dennis-

Thanks for the link, and a belated congrats to Oldmics on his purchase. Unfortunately, being several months behind is nothing new for me.

Mike

By ecode ragtop - 14 Years Ago

YALINCOLN, SMOKEY UNICK HAS BEEN GONE SINCE 2001, HE RACED BOWTIES IN 55-56 AND WAS UNDER CONTRACT TO FORD FOR 57-58. RELEASED AFTER THE A.M.A. BAN IN 57 . IN 57 AT DARLINGTON HE ENTERED A 57 FORD # 31 DRIVEN BY CURTIS TURNER AND A 57 BOWTIE #3 DRIVEN BY PAUL GOLDSMITH. BOTH CARS WERE BLACK AND GOLD, AND BOTH CARS WERE TAKEN OUT IN SEPERATE WRECKS BY LEE PETTY!!

By ecode ragtop - 14 Years Ago

AS FAR AS DOCUMENTING A 285 H.P. 312, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN ,I.D. TAG WOULD STILL START WITH E-CODE. AS FAR AS PAPER WORK FROM C.T.C.I. ON E AND F CODES. THAT IS ONLY FROM THE DEARBORN PLANT AND THEY WERE ONLY AFTER THE T-BIRD INVOICES. AT SOME POINT THE SUGGESTION WAS MADE TO INCLUDE THE E& F CARS BUT SOME HAD ALL READY BEEN PASTED BY. AGAIN THIS WAS ONLY ONE ASSY. PLANT. AND AS WE ALL KNOW THOSE FACTORY RACE CARS,DID NOT ALWAYS HAVE A MATCHING ENGINE TO THE I.D. TAG

By ecode ragtop - 14 Years Ago

JOHN, THERE ARE A FEW ADS ON E-BAY,RIGHT NOW THAT SHOULD START WITH THE WORDS ( ONCE UPON A TIME-IN A LAND FAR AWAY.) J.M.O. TOM

By Rudder2fly - 14 Years Ago

I may have a Isky E-2 Cam. Bought on Ebay back in 2002. What do I have to do to verify what I have?

By slumlord444 - 14 Years Ago

Found a Ford Blower cam in original tube back in the late '70s. Friend of mine with an F Bird bought it. Put an Effingham Regrinding cam on the blower cam in a 312 that I had in my Bird with dual quads for sevral years. Idled a little rougher than the stock cam and seemed like it ran a little better. Would go to 6000 rpm with good valve springs but power fell off after 5500 rpm. Still have complete motor stashed in my barn. Local dirt track guys ran this cam back in the mid '70s. Friend had one in '57 Ford dirt track car back then. Gave the small block chevy guys fits with it. Another guy had one in a 32 Ford coupe and they could not keep up with him either. Don't think I have the specs on it anymore but seemed to work prety well.

By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago

Anyone have a picture of the brass screen used in the aircleaner? Sounds like something I need to add to mine incase of a fire which can happen.

By John Mummert - 14 Years Ago

Wally Kirstein sent me what I am convinced is an original F-Code cam as described in the manual. It is quite different than the over the counter cams that were sold as B7A6250C.

Here are the Cam Doctor specs:

EDB CAM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAM PRO PLUS Cam Lift Report 8/22/2010

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INTAKE

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe I8 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 111.36 ATDC 0.001 439.18 103.61 BTDC 155.58 ABDC 24.61

.050 Lift C/L 111.40 ATDC 0.003 422.93 94.59 BTDC 148.34 ABDC 24.60

Runout 0.00080 0.006 402.52 84.27 BTDC 138.25 ABDC 24.55

Peak Open Acc. 0.000351 0.010 373.34 69.33 BTDC 124.01 ABDC 24.43

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000184 0.012 347.36 55.19 BTDC 112.17 ABDC 24.28

Peak Close Acc. 0.000299 0.015 307.96 36.39 BTDC 91.57 ABDC 24.03

Lift @ TDC 0.0629 0.018 283.34 26.91 BTDC 76.42 ABDC 23.81

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 278.63 25.56 BTDC 73.07 ABDC 23.76

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 275.15 24.32 BTDC 70.84 ABDC 23.73

Lobe Separation ----- 0.050 233.46 5.32 BTDC 48.13 ABDC 23.03

Minimum Flat 0.100 196.55 12.92 ATDC 29.47 ABDC 21.72

Follower Dia. 0.7121 0.150 163.96 29.22 ATDC 13.18 ABDC 19.53

0.200 128.66 46.93 ATDC 4.41 BBDC 16.58

0.225 108.09 57.21 ATDC 14.70 BBDC 14.16

0.250 83.24 69.71 ATDC 27.05 BBDC 11.18

0.275 47.53 87.59 ATDC 44.87 BBDC 6.45

0.28707 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.42409 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

EXHAUST

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe E8 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 107.36 BTDC 0.001 442.45 138.90 BBDC 123.54 ATDC 24.88

.050 Lift C/L 106.98 BTDC 0.003 425.83 131.68 BBDC 114.15 ATDC 24.86

Runout 0.00030 0.006 405.15 121.46 BBDC 103.69 ATDC 24.82

Peak Open Acc. 0.000345 0.010 376.02 105.70 BBDC 90.32 ATDC 24.69

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000201 0.012 354.71 92.33 BBDC 82.38 ATDC 24.57

Peak Close Acc. 0.000294 0.015 318.52 74.98 BBDC 63.54 ATDC 24.34

Lift @ TDC 0.0746 0.018 291.61 65.62 BBDC 46.00 ATDC 24.12

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 284.81 64.16 BBDC 40.65 ATDC 24.04

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 279.24 62.88 BBDC 36.36 ATDC 23.98

Lobe Separation ----- 0.050 234.35 44.15 BBDC 10.20 ATDC 23.24

Minimum Flat 0.100 197.31 26.05 BBDC 8.73 BTDC 21.92

Follower Dia. 0.7141 0.150 165.00 9.89 BBDC 24.89 BTDC 19.90

0.200 129.90 7.71 ABDC 42.39 BTDC 16.82

0.225 109.57 17.89 ABDC 52.54 BTDC 14.66

0.250 85.29 29.96 ABDC 64.75 BTDC 11.77

0.275 50.97 47.14 ABDC 81.89 BTDC 6.97

0.28895 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.42699 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

By John Mummert - 14 Years Ago

Here are some specs from an old hardfaced E-2 taken from a 256 Merc engine.

C:\Program Files\AudieTech\CPP\Isky E-2.CPP

ISKY E-2 INTAKE

ADVANCED 4 DEGREES

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe I8 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 107.89 ATDC 0.001 421.24 98.77 BTDC 142.48 ABDC 22.36

.050 Lift C/L 108.15 ATDC 0.003 400.73 89.97 BTDC 130.76 ABDC 22.34

Runout 0.00070 0.006 370.22 76.64 BTDC 113.57 ABDC 22.26

Peak Open Acc. 0.000365 0.010 330.58 58.67 BTDC 91.91 ABDC 22.11

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000255 0.012 312.31 49.70 BTDC 82.61 ABDC 22.00

Peak Close Acc. 0.000314 0.015 284.53 36.17 BTDC 68.36 ABDC 21.81

Lift @ TDC 0.0478 0.018 265.59 25.63 BTDC 59.95 ABDC 21.67

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 261.37 23.19 BTDC 58.19 ABDC 21.61

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 257.90 21.18 BTDC 56.71 ABDC 21.58

Lobe Separation ----- 0.050 214.36 0.97 ATDC 35.33 ABDC 20.85

Minimum Flat 0.100 178.83 18.27 ATDC 17.10 ABDC 19.49

Follower Dia. 0.7825 0.150 148.74 33.01 ATDC 1.75 ABDC 17.56

0.200 116.29 49.02 ATDC 14.70 BBDC 14.66

0.225 96.85 58.74 ATDC 24.41 BBDC 12.57

0.250 73.14 70.67 ATDC 36.19 BBDC 9.72

0.275 37.72 88.74 ATDC 53.55 BBDC 5.02

0.28383 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.41909 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

ISKY E-2 EXHAUST C:\Program Files\AudieTech\CPP\Isky E-2.CPP

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe E8 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 115.40 BTDC 0.001 438.38 149.08 BBDC 109.30 ATDC 22.90

.050 Lift C/L 114.86 BTDC 0.003 411.83 139.10 BBDC 92.73 ATDC 22.88

Runout 0.00090 0.006 385.21 127.07 BBDC 78.14 ATDC 22.81

Peak Open Acc. 0.000372 0.010 348.76 110.18 BBDC 58.58 ATDC 22.67

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000249 0.012 330.85 101.51 BBDC 49.34 ATDC 22.57

Peak Close Acc. 0.000315 0.015 305.06 89.57 BBDC 35.49 ATDC 22.40

Lift @ TDC 0.0379 0.018 279.13 76.20 BBDC 22.92 ATDC 22.19

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 272.36 72.45 BBDC 19.91 ATDC 22.12

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 266.75 69.14 BBDC 17.61 ATDC 22.07

Lobe Separation 111.6 0.050 216.76 43.24 BBDC 6.48 BTDC 21.28

Minimum Flat 0.100 180.68 25.78 BBDC 25.10 BTDC 19.96

Follower Dia. 0.7856 0.150 150.55 11.08 BBDC 40.53 BTDC 18.08

0.200 118.51 4.65 ABDC 56.84 BTDC 15.27

0.225 99.45 14.18 ABDC 66.37 BTDC 13.24

0.250 76.48 25.73 ABDC 77.80 BTDC 10.25

0.275 43.73 42.38 ABDC 93.89 BTDC 5.91

0.28682 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.42370 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

By John Mummert - 14 Years Ago

Dennis, we made a master from a B7A6250C sold in 1963 by Ford dealer. The original had about 2 degrees less duration and .004" more lift. These are the specs of a cam we made with our master. I no longer have the master.

C:\Program Files\AudieTech\CPP\FMC-EDB.CPP

B7A-6250C Replacement cam. Sold over Ford parts counter around 1963

Intake and exhaust same lobe

112 degree lobe centers. Shown advanced 4 degrees

LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA

Lobe I1 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------

Centerline 108.00 ATDC 0.001 347.66 66.99 BTDC 100.66 ABDC 23.72

.050 Lift C/L 106.55 ATDC 0.003 322.09 55.54 BTDC 86.54 ABDC 23.69

Runout 0.00030 0.006 294.33 41.75 BTDC 72.59 ABDC 23.63

Peak Open Acc. 0.000331 0.010 276.88 32.36 BTDC 64.52 ABDC 23.56

Peak Nose Acc.-0.000193 0.012 271.32 29.50 BTDC 61.81 ABDC 23.53

Peak Close Acc. 0.000356 0.015 264.98 26.18 BTDC 58.80 ABDC 23.49

Lift @ TDC 0.0690 0.018 259.91 23.59 BTDC 56.32 ABDC 23.45

Valve Lash 0.0180 0.019 258.42 22.85 BTDC 55.57 ABDC 23.44

Rocker Ratio 1.54 0.020 256.96 22.10 BTDC 54.86 ABDC 23.42

Lobe Separation ----- 0.050 226.86 6.88 BTDC 39.98 ABDC 22.92

Minimum Flat 0.100 193.75 10.01 ATDC 23.76 ABDC 21.69

Follower Dia. 0.7471 0.150 163.21 25.55 ATDC 8.76 ABDC 19.78

0.200 129.33 42.73 ATDC 7.94 BBDC 16.80

0.225 109.45 52.83 ATDC 17.72 BBDC 14.69

0.250 85.58 64.88 ATDC 29.54 BBDC 11.85

0.275 52.69 81.45 ATDC 45.86 BBDC 7.52

0.29053 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---

0.42941 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

By John Mummert - 14 Years Ago

The short duration over the counter B7A6250C cams I've seen where ground on aftermarket cores.

By John Mummert - 14 Years Ago

Newer cores have the number 3358 B-S.

Factory cores have FoMoCo on them.

Early Y-Block cams were not hardened and Rockwell in the mid 30c range. According to a Hollenders interchange manual I have Ford began hardening the cores in 1958. I have not confirmed this date.

The last Y-Block cams marked CAB-X are definitely hardened and use cast lifters

Form the 60's thru mid 2000's cam core Rockwell was in the 48-50c range. I'm told that new cores are supposed to be around 52c

Lifters must Rockwell at least 3 points higher than the cam core to survive.

By John Mummert - 9 Years Ago

The cam that was sent to me by Wally Kirstein years ago was made on a Ford core and had FoMoCo script marking. The specs were correct for the production 290° degree cam. I would have to find the cam to see what the suffix after EDB was.
The later over the counter cams were not on Ford core, as I recall after 17-18 years. I would expect to see CWC and probably YB1 on an older aftermarket core. These markings are generic to the core and do not indicate what the grind is.

By Ol'ford nut - 14 Years Ago

From internet search-

CWC formally Campbell Wyant and Cannon Foundry Co. in Muskegon, MI is the largest supplier of cast iron camshaft blanks in the world.

By Philo - 14 Years Ago

FYI. I contacted the guy with the cam on eBay about casting marks. Here is his reply, for what it's worth;

Sorry this took so long, but I finally got this out and gave it a close look. The casting numbers are not on this camshaft. It has the Fomoco logo, and the numbers are as follows. 28 is stamped on it in two places and L 29, is also stamped on the metal. That is all.

By NoShortcuts - 7 Years Ago

Robin. Welcome to the web site.

Oldmics has done a good job of responding to your first posting.

Following up on the dual point distributor and having the camshaft checked for its specs are things I hope you will do.

One long time 'Bird owner here in Syracuse did a lot of digging on the E and F code engines back in the early 1970 when he was doing a body off restoration on an E code 'Bird. From his research, he believed that the hi-po E code had both dual valve springs, the super charged cam, and a dual point distributor.

At that time, he was able to order all of the components that he believed were the parts used by Ford to assemble the hi-po version of the E code. The components he ordered from Ford over a Syracuse parts counter were: two piece valve springs, one piece valve spring retainers, a supercharged engine camshaft, the F code engine dual point distributor plate, the F code distributor cam, the F code distributor advance springs, and the F code ignition distributor vacuum chamber.

As Oldmics has indicated, many on this Forum and those affiliated with the Classic Thunderbird Club International would greatly appreciate any definitive information you are able to glean about the engine you have in the 'Bird you have purchased.

I hope that the person who disassembles your y-block is well versed in them. As Oldmics has suggested, there is much information to be gained from the defective camshaft and from the components in the ignition distributor. The validity of what is learned will be supported by the care with which other engine parts are looked at for their originality pedigree. Some engine parts like engine bearings, cylinder heads, and engine blocks have date codes that reflect when they were produced. Individuals well versed in the E code dual quad set-ups will tell you that there were variations in components like throttle linkage and air cleaner housings depending upon when they were produced during or after the '57 model year concluded in early December of 1957.

Oldmics suggestions of your turning to Ted Eaton, John Mummert, or John Harding to check the camshaft specs are all excellent, reputable y-block individuals to do the work.

By NoShortcuts - 7 Years Ago

Robin. I'm still thinking about what you may have purchased.

Properly forensically disassembled and cataloged, you will have perhaps THE first credible information in existence regarding the supposed hi-po Ford '57 E code engine and it's component parts.

WHO you choose to do the disassembly of your engine AND the completeness and detail of the recording of the information determined will be pivotal to how the information is respected and valued and the potential collector value of your restored car.

Food for thought . . . Smile

By NoShortcuts - 7 Years Ago

Robin. Miker's suggestion that you connect with Frank Stubbs is an excellent one. Know that we in no way question the mechanical ability or engine rebuilding technical expertise of your acquaintance. Every manufacturers' series of engines has unique features that speak to its particular period and specific time of production. This is information that many times does not appear in manufacturers' service manuals. In the case of the Ford y-blocks, Ford Service Letters are sometimes THE ONLY indication of parts changes, superseded parts, or modifications.

As an example, and my understanding is that this is an example that is NOT in the service letters, BUT is known by those that have worked or viewed numerous different 'Bird E code set-ups, . . . later 'Bird E code air cleaner housings had brass screening secured around the carburetor air horns to serve as flame arrestors. Unless you had worked on a number of E code set-ups, you would never realize that that is a significant change from how most were produced.

This is one seemingly insignificant piece of information, but your car, IF it is unmolested, IF it is as supplied originally by Ford, is quite possibly a treasure trove of information that only someone who knows y-blocks like the back of their hand will even recognize.

PLEASE, seriously consider involving Frank Stubbs in overseeing the disassembly of your engine. IF you involve Frank, he will involve other extremely knowledgeable individuals when appropriate or as needed like Gil Baumgartner, CA; Jim Weatherly, CA; Don Hyde, Tx; Amos Minter, TX; Scott McGilvray, TX; Marvin Hill, OH; Don Antilla, CT; or Felix Natoli, NY in deducing exactly what you have, AND the information it may yield that is one-of-a-kind. IF your car IS what is suspected and suggested, you have no idea of what that will do for the assistance, guidance, expertise, and coverage your 'find' will garner. HOW you proceed in this project, and WHO you involve in what is done, will determine what of value is gleaned and how it may benefit you personally. This is one of those situation of not just WHAT you do, but HOW you do it. It's potentially a clean slate. I hope you gather the information to make your 'find' work for you and work for those of us in the peanut gallery.

NOTE: 'E' code air cleaner housings were painted argent. None were chrome plated. Carburetor fires often melted the zinc diecast venturi boosters used above the carburetor primary throttle bores of the Holley 4000 causing the brass donut-like washers to fall into the intake manifold.

Frank Stubbs can be called at 425-228-1012. His email address is cfstubbsmsn.com

Best Wishes! Smile

Charlie Brown

By Genuinerod - 6 Years Ago

Crane Cams made a cam with those specs. back in the 60's and 70's. They called it SS-300-A, .451/.451 lift, .016/.018 lash, 300/300 duration, 225/225 duration at .050, and 113 LC. Good idle and torque. I had one in my T-Bird.

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

jeff

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

Hello,

I wanted to thankyou for welcoming me into the gp.....As you probably suspected I don't have any real proof what ford used in there 285 hp engine. I apolojize if I mislead anyone. I only know what I've read...And even with that there are some things that are vague and possibly inacurate. Where I've read this was from the Internet.....There was a claim a few years back on the internet that the the supposedly used RPM 300 cam could develop an honest 300 hp. That what the person wrote. I believe this was used on the supposed 285hp engine. There are some people I know in CTCI That maybe able to help....I'll see if I can get some information... I just recently built a 312 E-code engine this past winter and installed it in my 57 Ranchero...I had the M-260 camshaft ground off a stock cam by Berry cam Services a few years back in Lester Praire Minnesota. There's .433 lift for both the intake and end exh. according to the grind card 268 degrees of duration. I, went a little overboard and put the dual dampened valve springs in, single piece spring retainers and the 5/16 tubular pushrods....So far I'm pleased with the results...Just wated to share a little info. on what I like to tinker with

Jeff

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

Thankyou for the welcome......I can't say that I have anywhere near the experience that these folks have.....I've had my car for almost 17 years now......I enjoy the hobby and yes the engines themselves have alot to do with it...Not too many of the younger folk like the 50's cars and of course the y-block engines.....Most like the 390 FE engines.........If there even a ford fan.... I grew up with them because my dad had his 55 T-bird for more then 40yrs now..... What car do you have have and what's under the hood?

Thanks for chatting.....

Jeff

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Frank,

Very good on the supercharged 300 sedan......My ranchero had the e-code added.....I run a 3speed OD as well....I, don't race but I am intrigued with the high performance engines....I like to push it hard once or twice when I go out for a ride....Second gear is pretty awesome when all 8bls. are open.....I was wondering......my transmission is the T-85C 1-A with the R11-J tailstock.....Is this the same trans as in your Supercharged car? I, was told that Ford used the same O.D transmissions in 57 for the 312 engines D, E and F codes....What are your thoughts? Also on the side cover it says T-89B....Does this have any meaning? I have some other questions about the trans....but I'll ask them later.....I'm currently using a 3.89 differential......Should I be using a 3,70 diff.? I, was told the E-codes used this setup......Thanks for help and the interest......

Jeff

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

correction Frank, I should of wrote 57 ford custom.....mine was origonally a 292 with a 2bl....

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the advice......I feel as though what I have is good......I don't have any complaints.....I can't say that I'm puting myself in any kind of competition....A guy I know down in South Caroilna who has worked on supercharged car and thunderbirds mentioned it to me. He mentioned using a 3.70 diff. That's the only reason I asked about it.... I, do have an issue with the speedometer reading 10 mph higher then it should be.....I should have a 21 tooth speedo gear......the biggest gear I can get is a 19tooth....Let me explain.....I was formerly using a T-86 top loader trans....When I put the T-89 in it required me to use hollow type speedo gear with the clip.....( the speedo drive gear is the opposite hand of what I had with the T-86 trans. which requires another type of speedometer gear the red 19 tooth gear Wink Is there a larger tooth speedo gear available for this T-89 trans.? where would I find one? a 21 tooth gear should do the trick....

Thanks for explaining what Ted was saying.....I'm going to see if I can look up the website he mentioned.....

Jeff

By DualQuad312 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Ted,

I looked at the article that mentioned both the T-85 and the T-89......Correct me if I'm wrong....The T-85 could be found with an R10 tail stock? I thought the R10 was only found on the T-86 trans? And there are significant differances between the T-85 and T-89.....Not just the side covers..Hah that's funny...I know exactly what your saying when you mentioned the flat shifter levers verses the offset ones.....I have two T-89B transmissions.....One I put in the car and the other is a spare....I'd like to take a T-85 apart and look at all the differances between that and the T-89......At what time period did the T-89 come out? the guy I bouht the trans from said it came out of a 57 Ranchero.....Is this possible?

Thanks for the help....nice chatting,

Jeff

By Lord Gaga - 4 Years Ago

Isky RPM 300. 228 deg. @ .050, 3.89 or 4.11 gears.

By Cliff - 7 Years Ago

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/c537ffc9-c223-4cd4-952a-ddbb.jpg

By Cliff - 3 Years Ago

Look at this

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/e84a45cb-9157-46c6-9163-b17.jpeg

By Oldmics1 - 7 Years Ago

Hello Robin

Welcome to the Y Blocks Forever site!

You really have really jumped into the deep end of the pool with your first post as this has been one of the hottest and most confusing topics ever discussed.

I"m sure you read thru this thread before writing so you already know that as of now there has been NO Ford information availiable on this engine (except to acknowledge that it does exist)

My suggestion to you is on teardown of the engine please send the camshaft out for diagnosis.
Myself,Ted Eaton,or John Mummert would be the best folks to give you straight answers on what you have.Even a wiped cam can yield volumes of information.

Since there is no information regarding your location on the planet its hard to say who would be closest to you to send the cam to for analysis.

I"m in Maryland, Ted in Texas, and Mummert in Calif.

You should also inspect your distributor and let us know what the casting numbers are . If is is a correct "E" code distributor then the dual point system was an addition.
Normal "E" code machines only used a single set of points.

Dual points being used in the 285 H.P. engine have not been discussed but would have been a period correct way to gain some ignition system stability - perhaps you have taken this discussion on a different path.

The "F" code (supercharged) engines used a factory dual point setup as did some of the other speciality race engines of the era (Mercury for one).

The dual valve springs may indicate a 285 engine , however there was a Ford Service Bulletin modification that offered the dual springs as an upgrade on any of the "E" Code engines. Yours may have gone thru that upgrade after it was in use for awhile.

Your "gate sheet" release sheet would be of interest if it actually is a 285 engine. To date nothing has been found on that subject either.
As I previously said - this is a mysterious topic.

I will add that since the 285 engine builds were discontinued in December of 56 - IF you have a 285 H.P. engine the build date of your car would be sometime from Dec of 56 to perhaps as late as early in March of 57. And even thats a guess !

It is also believed that the 285 engines exclusively used the oval style air cleaners. What style of air cleaner is on your car?

I"m sure others will chime in but thanks for posting up and letting us know that there are people still interested in 60 year old race machines.
We look forward to whatever information you can add.

Oldmics

By Oldmics1 - 7 Years Ago

Robin
It is generally held in belief that the 285 engines used heads that were "broached".

Simply said - cut by .060 , if you could get to the 1" pad on the head and clean it off really good and see what the measurment is, that may be an elementary way to tell if your engine is a 285 H.P. build.

Oldmics

By 57ECODE - 9 Years Ago

Hi,
I have a NOS in the tube EDB-6250-D Camshaft. Does anyone have any more info on this cam? I've attached a pic of the label on the tube.
Thanks
Mike

By 57ECODE - 9 Years Ago

I will take a look at the cam for any markings. The tube label is marked EDB-6250-D under "special racing camshaft"

By 57ECODE - 9 Years Ago

OK I took the cam out and inspected it for markings. On the cam end, it is stamped I-815. I also found markings EDB near the opposite end. Does this tell us anything? See the attached pics.

Thanks
Mike

By 57ECODE - 9 Years Ago

There are some other markings I did not notice before. There is a yellow paint marking highlighting the other marks. They appear to be a fomoco logo with either 32 or 82 above it. Any clue??

By 57ECODE - 9 Years Ago

Does this info tell you anything about what the cam is?

By 57ECODE - 4 Years Ago

Hi Guys,
So, I posted in this thread 5 years ago about an NOS Ford "Special Racing Camshaft" I had. Here is a cam spec pulled from the core(see attached file). Also I re-posted a picture of the camshaft tube. Anyone know what grind this actually is???

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/6446ea04-e3c8-4853-818f-22cb.jpg

By 57ECODE - 4 Years Ago

It says:
Special Racing Camshaft
EDB-6250-D
Can't read the entire B7A number.

Oldmics, did you see the attached cam dr report?

Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks

By 57ECODE - 4 Years Ago

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/bcddeaf9-277a-4390-9540-50b5.jpg

By sweeptee - 4 Years Ago

Friends,
I need guidance w my 57 E Bird. Cam and/or carb selection specifically. I posted on this thread as the car was raced from new (Dec '56) by the dealer and then campaigned a bit by one of their mechanics before my father bought it in '63 I would like to get the mysterious 285HP camshaft (or as close as possible) during my current project. I have no idea if this car was one of the unicorn 285 HP units as it was rebuilt at least twice since new.
Here are specs as I know them:
0.080 over for ~325 CI. 1.54 rockers ECZ-G Heads milled down (guessing 10.8 compression) Stock exhaust Current Cam is a Lunati SP-280 grind with following specs:
0.480" Lift - 232 duration at 0.050" Advertised at 280 degrees. 108 deg of lobe separation. Cam had been installed 3 deg retarded and timing chain worn to 4 degrees of slop.
Car is 3sp w/ OD, 3.7 rear end. Car became mine with a pair of Carter WCFB's that were less than perfect...
Project status: Engine and Trans out of vehicle. replaced the worn driving gear on OD tailshaft so that the governor (and speedo/odo) will operate. I installed a single four intake manifold and a new Edelbrock to get things "drivable" as the idle would not sit down with the worn and tired Carters. The car always ran rich, smelled of fuel, high idle, etc.
Target: Highway capable with reduced rpms (should be handled with the OD working). Retain as much lope as possible, but get the car drivable with the true dual quad setup.
Next Steps: secure a less aggressive cam OR find a carb solution that will achieve (if possible) my desire to drive the car to cruises without all the "race car cam" drama.
I am eager for your ideas as I try to achieve a balance with this automobile...
Sweeptee

By sweeptee - 4 Years Ago

55blacktie,
Thanks for the input. Having the overdrive working and using it was the start point of the project. I'm figuring I'll have to take the cam down at least one size (defined as 7degrees at 0.050") to get sufficient power at 2300 rpm. I have targeted OD cruise of 73 mph turning 2250 at ~19 mpg. I might need to go down two sizes, but want to retain as much lumpity at idle to make it clear this is not a stock cam.
Any thoughts on the carb side?
Sweeptee

By sweeptee - 4 Years Ago

Again, thanks for input. Really appreciate the descriptions of your vehicle, performance and cam specs. This is exactly what I need.
55blacktie, I'll be on the lookout for the email. And yes, Mummert's Y-284S is almost exactly what is in the car now and it is just too much for what I am wanting to do with the car. Might work okay with a single 4bbl and an interest in constant tinkering and frequent track time, but it's too aggressive for how I'm using it. I really like your idea of the Y-280-1-07 and the tip regarding LSA. Seems to be in the sweet spot of what I'm trying to accomplish. I'll be adding headers to the equation... ;-)
Charliemccraney, thanks for the numbers on drive line ratios. That really helped to confirm my calculations and also provided some level of confirmation about what my father told me when he ran the car in the mid to late 60's... "I got close to 20 mpg if I kept it just over 70 at 2200 on a long highway cruise"
Sweeptee

By sweeptee - 4 Years Ago

Miker,
A worthy consideration. What gas were/are you running? I've had dieseling as an issue, but haven't had to slay the detonation dragon thus far. I also do not consider myself an expert in any of this. I do know that timing (or lack thereof) has been an issue on several of my rides. Thanks for the heads up.
Sweeptee

By sweeptee - 4 Years Ago

miker,
I am in Easter Pennsylvania (Amish country! - Lancaster County). Have access to pure gas (no ethanol) and it tests consistently in the 87-91 Octane range. I used to put aviation 100LL in the car and everything was perfect!!! Well, maybe not perfect, but a whole lot better. Either way, the AvGas is no longer an option.
55blacktie,
I have not seen the email. Here is the direct address for a resend: sweeptee@ptd.net
I will take a look at gofastmath.com
The 10.8 was a guess based on the reduction of cc's due to zero decking and milling. The Jahns pistons are flat top, not domed, so likely not as high as 10.8 Not looking to operate on pump gas (corn syrup) and will avoid it unless on a long trip with no other options.
sweeptee

By robin - 7 Years Ago

The fellow that used to ride around in this car in high school (mid sixties) doesn't think the engine was ever messed with. In other words, he thinks it is all original. It is doubtful that the original owner had anything modified at the dealers, but maybe the original invoice will shed some light on it. There are the siblings that I bought the car from, so I will ask their opinion too if they can remember anything. I am located in Arlington Wa. I will be happy to send the cam out for inspection. It needs to be rebuilt as that was the reason the car was parked in 1966 never to run again.

Here is what Tom Stocks from CTCI had to say about the car.The vin indicate your car was the 539th unit (E-Bird) built in late Feb 1957 and is confirmed with the data plate. It was also shipped direct to Seattle and if the owner who passed was the original owner and the car was put in storage upon his passing it could well be one of he 285 hp cars. I would be very interested in seeing a copy of the invoice when you get it and see if is or if the invoice can shed some light on if the company did code it as receiving the285 hp equipment. I am forwarding this to Gil our authenticity chairman,I believe he would be interested in this car.
The air cleaner is the normal E-Code air cleaner except very rusty. I attached a photo of it. Financially, doing the resurrecting of this car makes little sense, but if it really is a 285hp car, that gives me more of a reason to do it right.

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By robin - 7 Years Ago

I never thought that this car would be able to solve a mystery of such proportions. I am really excited to help all the T-Bird fans finally put some of these 285HP questions to bed.
Bob Quarterman, one of our mechanical engineers builds and races cars as his passion. He only works to support his racing habit. Bob will be doing the rebuild on this engine as he has a lifetime of experience on it. He is not all that familiar with Y blocks though. We will make sure we document everything and will send any pertinent parts out to the real experts for evaluation and rebuilding. We know the cam is worn out. That is why the car was parked in 1966. It has not run since. I think the original owner got tired of repainting the hood due to stack fires. I have noted all the comments so far and will comply with all the advice and concerns as far as documenting everything. I will be glad to share it all here as it happens. I do not expect to be removing the engine until this winter, but we may be able to get some info on the heads, intake manifold, distributor and such before.
I am not able to tell if the air cleaner housing was originally painted or chromed? Too many fires? The engine does have a chrome oil filler cap. Doesn't that indicate a dress up kit was part of the engine? It find it hard to believe this air cleaner was ever chrome plated though. That will be a lot of fun restoring. Like a lot of the car, it is in pretty bad shape. I will attach a few pictures here of the distributor and valve springs. I do not yet understand the single part valve spring retainer? Maybe these pictures will help you determine if that is what we have?
I do not always remember to go to this forum as my schedule is too busy. I do always answer regular e-mails though so if anyone wants to get info regarding this car quicker, feel free to e-mail me directly. robin@midnitesolar.com

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By robin - 7 Years Ago

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/d05598b6-b810-4d5d-9b48-a068.jpg

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Picture of the valve springs.

By robin - 7 Years Ago

Frank Stubbs lives just an hour South of me. I am in Arlington, WA.
Does Miker live in Kent WA or Arizona? If he is a snowbird, then maybe he is still up here in the PAcific Northwest. Kent is only an hour and a half away.
I would like to get both of them up to Arlington at their convenience to get their first look at this Bird. I think this is going to be fun.We will all learn a lot.
I did hear from the daughter or niece of the original owner today. Here is what she had to say. It looks like she thinks I sold the car. I did set her straight on that.

Here is what my uncle Milt's brother said:When Milt bought the T-bird it had a I believe less than 1000 miles. I'm not sure if it was owned by someone other than dealer. The engine was never worked on. It had a motor mount problem that when revved allowed the engine torque to the right and the clutch pivot rod would pull out of socket that made clutch peddle to drop to floor board .I believe he replaced the motor mount . All other parts should be original. The hard top without the porthole is rare also. I always knew it was a (super Bird) sorry to hear it was sold, had hoped someone would have restored it.

By robin - 7 Years Ago

I sure hope you and Frank are up to coming up to Arlington to see what it is we have. I will attach the original invoice that just came in. It doesn't help much though.
Let me know what Frank has to say.

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By robin - 7 Years Ago

Frank brought up a potential problem with this engine being the 285hp version. The dual point distributor has Mallory points. Is it possible that Ford ever shipped this engine with Mallory dual points? Once again, I have gone back to the original family and asked if anyone knows about distributor work being done? So far the consensus is that the original owner did not install these points. We may not know the real results of this engine until it gets down to the cam. I am hoping that sometime after next week, Mike and Frank can come up to Arlington for a look see. Then we can haul the engine out and send it away to the Y block experts.

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By robin - 7 Years Ago

I was able to contact one of the original owners kids. All he knows is that the car is supposed to have a special cam. He too, like the original owners brother does not think the engine has ever been messed with. I will contact John Mummert in hopes he will do the engine rebuild. I will not take it apart at all based on trying to maintain validity of the entire engine configuration. I am trying to get Miker and Frank Stubbs up to see the car before we pull the engine.
If it turns out to be the elusive 285hp engine, all this effort will be worth it to finally solve some of the mystery surrounding it.

By robin - 7 Years Ago

Frank and Kathy Stubbs drove up to my place in Arlington last week to look at the rusty old 57 E-Code engine. Frank could not see anything that looked suspicious other than the Mallory dual point distributor and missing spark plug insulators. I think at this point it is time to send the entire engine out for a rebuild to someone reputable who can document everything in hopes of addressing the authenticity of this engine. It is reported to have a special cam. It does have dual valve springs. So time to check the heads, compression and especially the cam. Then we will know for sure if this is indeed the special 285HP engine. But why does it have Mallory dual points?

By Oldfart - 7 Years Ago

New to forum guy here who does recognize the pictured distributor. When I hopped up my 55 T Bird in the mid 60's I replaced the stock vacuum distributor with a '57 blower distributor from Ford. The distributor was hard to find at the time as it needed the tach drive in order for me to keep the stock tach useable. I can also attest to the clutch pivot keepers popping out due to the engine torquing over and serious wheel hop. I also installed a different distributor cam that gave me a quicker throttle response, but it made the engine hard to start.

Some added thoughts and comments two days later. ~ I still have my T-Bird. My modifications were: '57 312 heads out of an old police interceptor automatic trans. High ratio rocker arms, higher compression ratio and larger valves. Runners were polished and opened up around the valve guides. Valves were tulip ground and Oldsmobile valve springs installed. Melling super full camshaft and Jahns 5/8 " dome pistons installed with a full race balance. 0.030 over bore for the new pistons, 57 T-Bird blower distributor, Edlebrock dual 4 intake with a pair of Cadillac large venturi WCFB carbs. Straight linkage adjusted so the secondary did not open until 70 mph in straight high gear. ~ The problems I encountered were: clutch linkage coming apart when hammering the throttle, Crankshaft pulley damper shifting on the pulley, serious wheel hop and axel wrap, adequate breathing for the crankcase and generators coming apart. The latter was due to the higher than I thought engine RPM. The stock tach uses a wind driven (squirrel cage inside a squirrel cage) connection to the needle from the input cable and in my case was no where correct at higher RPM's. I routinely turned the engine to 5K on the tach which was probably closer to 7K. I finally changed the generator pulley size so I could keep the generator from slinging apart (and keep the fan belt from slinging off). I don't really know what the top speed is on the car. It has seen 128 and would cruise at 118 doing about 20 miles to the gallon on the highest test gas I could get. My wife and I managed to whip all but the fuel injected corvettes we could find willing to do some green light go. ~~~ About dual valve springs. The second or inner spring is actually a damper to try to stop valve chatter. The stock valve spring is 70 pounds open. They tend to float at higher RPM's and are the cause of most Y block failures. Oldsmobile valve springs are 108 pounds closed. The heads are frankly thin over the combustion chamber and back in the 60's were not milled unless that area was reinforced. Usually accomplished by drilling a hole through the head deck and installing a bolt through the water jacket and then welding the bolt to the deck before milling. Dome pistons were a much safer way to raise the compression ratio.

By tnswt - 6 Years Ago

Robin,

Any more news about the 285 HP, E-Code engine?

By flatheadbill - 6 Years Ago

Just disassembled 312 that I know has sat for 37 years. Block is ECZ-C intake ECZ-B heads small ECZ-G but cam has SS 300 and m9535 on end and YB-1 CWC cast into it. Lift measures .288. So .288 x 1.54 = .4435 - .018 lash = .425 ish. Is this the RPM 300 Isky cam? Could it be the 285 hp cam? Bore is 3.860 with stock appearing pistons crank is 3.440 stroke but is ground .010/.010. Its supposed to be from 57 bird block still has traces of orig red paint but heads have orig yellow paint like 272?

By flatheadbill - 6 Years Ago

Thank you! When I get block back from machine shop will degree cam and put info on this forum.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

Mummert's Y-284-S cam has very similar specs. The rpm range is 2500-6200. Based on my calculations, your final-drive ratio (3.70 rear and .70 OD)/w 26.9"-diameter tires (215/70R15) would be 2.59. Your speed at 2500 rpm would be 77.28 mph. I have to conclude that you would need a smaller cam, or not use OD often. We do have some pretty crazy drivers in California, where posted-speed-limit signs are pretty much meaningless. If that's the case where you live, go for it.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

Sweeptee, I'm sending an email.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

You will want a narrower LSA for "the sound." Mummert's Y-280-1-07 cam has a 2200-6000 rpm range. Its 107 LSA should give you the sound you are looking for. The narrower LSA should also provide a little more torque at lower rpm. However, there won't be a lot of vacuum at idle. 19 mpg? Maybe on level ground, light traffic, and constant speed. A wider LSA should improve mpg and will provide more vacuum, but will diminish the sound. Everybody wants the perfect cam, but I don't think anyone has found it. There are just too many variables to consider for a street-driven car. More than likely you will have to give up something. Consider your driving habits. How you intend to use the car, and how often, should be primary considerations when selecting a cam.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

Sweeptee, I sent the email this morning.

Check out gofastmath.com. You can calculate your dynamic compression and horsepower. I0.8 static is pretty high. Milling the heads and zero-decking the block, alone, won't put you there. You must have pop-up (domed) pistons as well. A smaller cam will increase your dynamic compression ratio, as Miker said. E-85 might work, if it's available in your area. It's cheaper, but your mpg will be lower. I've not converted to E-85, but maybe somebody out there has, who will give you his 2 cents on the matter.