Ooopppsss I am reposting this from the Street forum, I think it is better here 😅


Hi all you Y-block lovers! I'm new to this forum from Athens, Greece with my '54 Mercury Monterey driver. It has the original 239 with low mileage, manual with Overdrive, 6volt positive ground, the 2140 Teapot and, the ' temperamental' Load-O-Matic..

Before learning that need a SUN machine, way back I tried to adjust the spring weights and really messed it up. I found one in England but it came back and still is no good. I've always had problems and lately it misfires especially in the mid RPM range.


Here are my novice questions for your kind expert consideration:

1. Is there a way I can manually tune the springs without the SUN machine?

2. Are there reliable Load-O-Matic tuners in the states I can send it for proper tuning?my Load-O-Matic for tuning or I just forget about them?
3. Should I simply forget about it and go for a point unit with centrifugal weights like the ones used in the later Y-Block engines? And frankly I would like to keep it as buy now. I ( I can easily do Ted 's vacuum Teapot conversion I read about in this forum) know it quite well
4.
5. I am also open foran HEI distributor that looks like my original and can fit with the shaft length and tang coupling to the oil pump. However there is a question with the wiring of my overdrive's kick down switch wiring on the coil, because I tried the Pertronix unit it way back and it did not work.

That's it, thank you all in advance
Aris

KULTULZ with three (!) distributors on my bench now, of which one was the NOS, I home to get somewhere 😛

I've chosen the NOS one to rebuild but had to swap it's gear as it came with 13 teeth. I positioned the 14 gear on the bench (4.991" to 4.996") but thought of checking the end play on the engine and I was lucky as I had to add 1/64 to reach the end play spec.

I thought I was doing well until on the NOS plate I checked the eccentric posts with a tool I made myself and one of them was frozen stuck and broke off 😝.... BTW that plate did not look NOS to me...

I'll go for the best one of the other two plates I have, but I still have to remove and reassemble the gear before I start the engine and go from there.

I was also very lucky to find two new Spark Check Valves from Mac's carburetors, as before I get on to adjusting the springs I want to make sure I have the correct spark plug vacuum values before attacking the springs.

I checked the eccentric posts with a tool I made myself and one of them was frozen stuck and broke off 😝.... BTW that plate did not look NOS to me...

No reason to try and turn the post(s)s (most likely frozen) as it is a fine tune that requires the correct DIST MACHINE setup.

I thought you were going to install the NOS DIST you acquired to see if that was the problem?

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Here is an interesting read concerning FBO IGN ability to convert a small bowl LOM DIST to mechanical and vacuum advance. The only thing that would give it away would be the DUAL ADVANCE VACUUM CANISTER - 

- http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic148849-15.aspx

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KULTULZ thank for your your follow ups!

On the NOS distributor I had to swap the 13 tooth to a 14 one and the vacuum chamber was 1/2 the diameter of the ones for my Y-block so even though it is a NOS, apparently it came from another V8 engine, I have no idea from what. Now when testing the pivots the primary broke so besides everything else, I now have to swap the plate too.

Your link for a Pertronix in a centrifugal distributor is very interesting but after trying them many years ago, I went back to points.

The main reason reason was that they were very sensitive to the correct voltage, so on my 6-volt cars they often did not work on start up when those vintage starters were pulling all the battery's juice. Perhaps in 12volts they are ok but for 6volt cars I had a negative experience.

On my 24v miltary Willys M38 they were fine, but I burned two of them because the ignition was left on. The Mercury had an additional problem as the Pertronix module would not engage the kickdown of my overdrive circuit.

I'm bidding my time to get the LOM working and if not I understand my last resort will be a centrifugal distributor along with a geared oil pump and shaft. Ted's straightforward Teapot modification will give one more DIY project that I can undertake in-between our summer heatwaves 😂

On the NOS distributor I had to swap the 13 tooth to a 14 one and the vacuum chamber was 1/2 the diameter of the ones for my Y-block so even though it is a NOS, apparently it came from another V8 engine

Post the DIST ID STAMPING NO from the bowl and I will give you the intended application -

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Ok here are the three distributors.

1. FAE 12127-C H342 On the car recently

2. FAE 12127-A2 The one I had spare. No aluminum label, number is raised on the bowl

3. FAE 12127-A H461 The 'NOS' I bought now that came with 13 teeth, frozen pivot and wrong vacuum diaphragm*

*Note I tested it but it held no vacuum, took it apart and found a small 0.10 hole on the diaphragm, I can only guess it was not from a car with a ported, but another one with manifold vacuum

I'll mount the #3 NOS and proceed as follows:

Set initial timing without vacuum attached

Try to test on the car the 5 Teapot Spark Valves I have, and use the one closest to the hg performance from graph hg specs.

Add vacuum and TRY TO adjust timing based on the graph, using the springs I have. Primary spring spring up to 1000 RPM and then up to 2000 with the secondary spring.

One point that I realized too late is that the RPM values shown in my book are for the distributor RPM whereas for the harmonic balance the should be X2😛

Self made, DIY mechanic, too far away...but I love working as much as I like driving🙂‍↕️

Something to consider: When rebuilding a LOM, if originality is not important, NOS aftermarket Y-Block ‘dual points’ kits may still be available, and a way to maximize performance/reliability.  The included advance plate may even have roller bearings (?).  If economy also is not a concern, advance-limiting devices were offered (Offenhouser?), which allowed a more aggressive ignition curve (lower spring tension).
Of course, a dual advance distributor and a modern carb. would be simpler (and likely easier to set up properly).

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

The Mercury had an additional problem as the Pertronix module would not engage the kickdown of my overdrive circuit.

I have heard that ...

Were you using the IGNITOR  I or II?

Of course, a dual advance distributor and a modern carb. would be simpler (and likely easier to set up properly). 

A DUAL ADVANCE requires a 12V NEG system where the 54 and 55 were 6V POS. This MERC is a cherry and would be a shame to modify. 

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Similar thread from another forum - 

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349646

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6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Not so.  

Ignition points work just fine with 6V/+grd.,

If the points/cond are for a 6V system

... and the mechanical & vacuum advance mechanisms have nothing to do with electronics.

I do not remember saying that,

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Ok here are the three distributors.

1. FAE 12127-C H342 On the car recently

2. FAE 12127-A2 The one I had spare. No aluminum label, number is raised on the bowl

3. FAE 12127-A H461 The 'NOS' I bought now that came with 13 teeth, frozen pivot and wrong vacuum diaphragm*

OK, it seems the ID PLATE (on some early FYB's and STAMPING NOS on some later LOM are actually SERVICE PN's.

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The only use of dueling points (back in the day) was a longer dwell and a higher degree of coil saturation (especially with a period ignition amplifier).

With today's' TECH, there is little reason (IMO) for them.

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3. FAE 12127-A H461 The 'NOS' I bought now that came with 13 teeth, frozen pivot and wrong vacuum diaphragm*

*Note I tested it but it held no vacuum, took it apart and found a small 0.10 hole on the diaphragm, I can only guess it was not from a car with a ported, but another one with manifold vacuum

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OK KULTULZ, here is the one with no tag.


BTW I'm wondering if my mechanical DIY ignorance got me to this point: could the whole misfiring issue have started not from the LOM 'peculiar' tuning but from an EXPANDED shaft lobe, that was heating up because of the constant rubbing on the brass bearing? Just a thought, because I have put on 30,000 miles and I don't remember when the misfiring problems started. And of course back then I did not read (or understand?) my manual's clear instructions on having a 0.020'' gap under the lobe ...

Here is the pic of the one I had on that was misfiring. Again I have no recollection of how long it had been operational on the car to relate it to when the misfiring started. Memory was always one of my weak points but now at late 70s it is much worse....

... could the whole misfiring issue have started not from the LOM 'peculiar' tuning but from an EXPANDED shaft lobe, that was heating up because of the constant rubbing on the brass bearing?

Yes. If the bushing is worn, it will allow the DIST SHAFT to wallow and the points opening and dwell will be affected.

[B[ EDIT[/B] - If the shaft is not in correct alignment (defective bushing) it may also cause excessive wear of the actual cam (and points set rubbing block) also, especially if not lubed correctly during service.

There is an oil cup in older DIST that allows the bushing to be lubed at service intervals.

Can you wiggle the shaft and notice unusual excessive side to side movement within the bushing?

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Discussing CRS ... 

OK KULTULZ, here is the one with no tag.

Actually, it is an IDENTIFYING TAG but just in another format.

HOLLEY was the vendor for FORD IGN and FUEL for that period. It may be the tagged ones were issued at the CLEVELAND PLANT and the bowl ID was issued at the DEARBORN PLANT.

The DIST tagged FAE-12127-C is the correct DIST for your engine (CLEVELAND ENGINE - CF).

FAE-12127-A is a DIST (13T) for the DEARBORN plant (DIF) and was issued for the light and medium truck 239CI.
Usually, when a PN SUFFIX ( -A in this instance) had a numerical character after it ( -A2 in this instance), it was an indication of an upgraded/improved replacement PN. FAE-12127-A2 is not cataloged so it may have been described in a SERVICE LETTER of that period.

Regardless, hold onto the original DIST as it will increase the value of the car.

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HOLLEY was the vendor for FORD IGN and FUEL for that period. It may be the tagged ones were issued at the CLEVELAND PLANT and the bowl ID was issued at the DEARBORN PLANT.

The DIST tagged FAE-12127-C is the correct DIST for your engine (CLEVELAND ENGINE - CF).

KULTULZ am I given in my ignorance another chance? I have already seen this listing https://ebay.us/m/8MK0dF but made nothing of it because it is not a Ford one. Now with your endless expertise you wrote that Holley made them for Mercury!
The description is "NOS 1954 Mercury car HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR Model# 1275-S part# R-844-1AS This is a bid for a new old stock distributor for a '54 Merc made by the Holley
Carburetor Co.It has a 14-tooth gear, and includes the points & condenser.
The original box is included but it is very poor. Part NumberA414 "
The seller has 100% feedback and on the sNOS box it's written For 54 Mercury!!! I've asked him just now if he can tell if it has ever been used

What do you say, shall I go for it? I have not yet tried tuning the one on the car.

I'm probably wrong but could I have a 100% original solution if I build the one you wrote that came with the car, with the ''innards" of this Holley? Ok maybe I'm again beng daft?

Kultulz, thanks for that information.  I never knew there were two different 239/256 series, I thought they were all the same.

You are more than welcome. Just one 256CI SERIES as it was a CLV (CF) engine (as far as I know). The 256-4V was also used in the 1954 FORD as a police engine. That engine is not cataloged in the 1949/1959 FORD MPC. Most likely cataloged in a SPECIAL POLICE CATALOG. 

It gets even more confusing with the gradual transition of the truck 256CI to the 272CI (1955-56).

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KULTULZ am I given in my ignorance another chance?

I have already seen this listing https://ebay.us/m/8MK0dF but made nothing of it because it is not a Ford one. Now with your endless expertise you wrote that Holley made them for Mercury!

The description is "NOS 1954 Mercury car HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR Model# 1275-S part# R-844-1AS

Well, No.1 is that you are not ignorant. 

The problem is that you have come across a CHERRY 54 MERC and of course where you are located makes it even more difficult for you to find advice, parts and service.

HOLLEY made for FORD-LINC-MERC as well as FORD TRUCK. They also made for others like INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER.

The DIST shown (HOLLEY) is not a FORD ISSUE, it is a type of service replacement (similar to aftermarket service parts of the period). A FOMOCO specific DIST will be ID'd by the two TAG/DIST BOWL examples already discussed.

HOLLEY also made in his period a series named ROTO-VANCE (both vacuum and centrifugal advance) which was a HP offering and frequently used to replace the LOM DIST.

You have the correct DIST on the car.

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Ok, there is a. 'In 1 cart" note on it, so I took my chances and bought it..... Hope this time it works out good, and yes, I won't touch the pivots😛 I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Ted yes, for timing I use a timing light and yes the mark moves when I rev it

If you see the timing mark advance with the timing light, the advance should be good.

If you put a vacuum signal on the vacuum advance canister (with a hand held vacuum pump or mouth suction), does the breaker plate advance and return (after releasing vacuum) easily and does the vacuum canister hold vacuum?

If that low of mileage, the DIST advance may be hanging but not totally dysfunctional.

Exactly what is (are) the drive-ability concern(s)?

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Hey KULTULZ your reply came to Greece! I wish I'll get it working with such smaller problems 😅

DANIEL TENDER WROTE -

Just that it is possible to improve performance while retaining the 6SEMV system. He’s not doing a concours restoration.BTW:

His problem with a 6V Pertronics is common (overdrive draws too much juice).

#1 -
I owe you an apology. Ted and others later corrected me as to being able to use a 12V DIST on a 6V system in another thread.

 #2While PERTRONIX does offer an IGNITOR for the 6V NEG GRD LOM DIST, I have read casual references to the OD electric control interfering with it's operation (I believe the momentary electric supply cut-out) confusing the IGN MODULE?

Do you have any other info/experience?

BTW - The FDT-12127-B1 DIST ASSY the OP showed earlier was a 1956 FORD 292-312. I would think that one would have better advance curves if he kept LOM..

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6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

"I once installed the Pertronix for 6V +grd in my OEM LOM dist.   Combination of worn gen., corroded relay assembly contacts, etc., made the idiot light glow when the solenoid hold-in coil activated with headlight on, and the motor would thus start missing at high RPMs. Reinstalling the points cured the issue."

... hmmpf  ...

Was the IGNITOR wired thru the IGN SW or a free-standing relay circuit?

Think I will contact their TECH and see if they have a go-around.

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6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Dan, I don't know if you are cussing me or what ... 

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Re-read your post: (“A DUAL ADVANCE requires a 12V neg. system”….)
A 6V condenser..sure. But, I don’t believe the 12V neg. points would have trouble conducting 6V + grd. current (unless there is some issue I’m missing?).
Re: ‘dual points’:  Since 6V electronic distributor options are quite limited, dual points may well offer longevity/reliability advantages in addition to better performance.

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Re-read your post: (“A DUAL ADVANCE requires a 12V neg. system”….)

An OEM DUAL ADVANCE DIST (1957/ ) requires a 12V SYSTEM, unless modified in a fashion to operate off a 6V SYSTEM.

This gentleman has a CHERRY 54 MERC SURVIVOR that he wants to remain as OEM ASSEMBLY.

He has a drive-ability concern that he wants to address while retaining the FACTORY ASSEMBLY LOAD-O-MATIC. I agree with his approach. He feels the problem is within his LOM DIST. I am just giving him the info and choices he is seeking

I realize my CRS is rapidly advancing and I cannot seem to understand where you are going.

Exactly what is it you are trying to get across?

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The LOM IGN SYSTEM required the DIST to be removed and set up on a DIST MACHINE (whether a tune-up or drive-ability concern). 

Points dwell, breaker arm tension, and advance curves were verified and corrected at that point. The DIST was re-installed and if drive-ability was still a concern, the MECHANIC/TECH would go into the fuel and advance signal system.

You can use timing tapes, an extremely sensitive vacuum gauge along with prayers and hopes until the cows come home.

There are PERTRONIX SYSTEMS that will replace the points/condenser on a 6V (POS or NEG GRD) LOM DIST. That takes care of any DUAL POINTS setup.

The points style DIST was phased out in 1974/1975 production and for good reason (IMO).

Would I personally use a LOM DIST? Not unless the car was a survivor or correct restoration.

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6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Back on page 6 Aris said he took the 13 tooth gear off his NOS distributor and put the 14 tooth gear on.  I thought 239s and 256s had 13 tooth gears, '55 and later engines had 14 tooth.  If the distributor he took out of the engine  had 14 teeth, then he doesn't have a '54 engine.  Or a '55 or later camshaft has been installed, which is not a direct fit in '54 engines.  Maybe someone has put a '55 or later short block in his car.

John - "The Hoosier Hurricane"

Back on page 6 Aris said he took the 13 tooth gear off his NOS distributor and put the 14 tooth gear on.  I thought 239s and 256s had 13 tooth gears, '55 and later engines had 14 tooth.  If the distributor he took out of the engine  had 14 teeth, then he doesn't have a '54 engine.  Or a '55 or later camshaft has been installed, which is not a direct fit in '54 engines. 

There were two 1954 FYB engine series -

- the DEARBORN built 239CI which was the EBU BIG CAM ENGINE and had the 13T cam drive.

- the CLEVELAND built 239-256CI which were the SMALL CAM ENGINE(s) (EBV and EBY respectfully) and required     the 14T cam drive.

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It most certainly is possible to improve performance with a LOM install, but the subject was SERVICE REPAIR, not SERVICE UPGRADE or MODIFICATION. The OP wants the car to run correctly in it's original assembly 



No need for a restoration. Did you see the under hood shot(s)? Which method is going to result in a more valuable car, the OEM system(s) or a resto-mod?

THANX! for finally coming to your point.

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Kultulz, thanks for that information.  I never knew there were two different 239/256 series, I thought they were all the same.

John - "The Hoosier Hurricane"