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Oil Question - now what?

Posted By rgrove 19 Years Ago
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speedpro56
Posted 19 Years Ago
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I am currently using shell rotella 5/40 syn.  My oil pressure is down slightly from the mobil one which was rated at 15/50.  I would rather run a slightly lower oil pressure than lose my cam and lifters.At 1500 of so RPMs my oil pressure stays on 50+lbs with the rotella.With the mobil you can add about 8 or so lbs.

-Gary Burnette-


KULTULZ
Posted 19 Years Ago
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speedpro56 (12/24/2006)

Gary, Go too> http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/camshaft-breakin-guestion-97574.html

scroll down to the picture of the Hughes Engines Racing Lube extreme pressure lubricant and click on (Tech Article ) and read What's Best for My Engine.

Gary

OK...

Excerpts-

We are looking at oils and/or additives that can replace the zinc phosphate package. There are many named additives with cute names with z’s and x’s and numbers in their names that are worthless. One additive that is used by some additive manufacturers is lead. Yeah, it works, but it is very illegal if you haven’t heard. They fly under the radar until they have made enough money to move to LACE w:st="on">CancunLACE>. Another popular additive is moly. Moly comes in 2 different forms, but they are both called moly. The more common and popular is molybdenum disulfide; it is a dark gray color and is hard to get off of your hands or out of your clothes. This moly is a very good extreme pressure lubricant, but it falls out of suspension (won’t stay mixed in the oil) and the oil filter will take it out (or plug up). Some sources even complain that the moly disulfide is causing wear on some of the engine parts.

>

There is an S.A.E. paper (2000-01-3553) done in conjunction with the guys at R.C.R. (Richard Childress Racing as if you don’t know) examining various anti-wear additives. The molybdenum additive used in one test would not mix properly with the original antiwear compounds resulting in higher than normal cam and lifter wear. The more we dig into this subject the more contradictory and confusing it gets.

>

As far as I can determine at this point, the best stuff for your crankcase is a heavy duty oil (not an energy conserving oil) either a straight weight or 10W-40 or 20W-50 racing oil or 15W-40 diesel oil if it has a CI-4 or CI-4+ rating. At this time we do not recommend any synthetic oils for use with flat tappet cams.
 
The Japanese have better (slicker) oils that still protect flat tappet cams, they are good enough that they can even improve fuel mileage and protect that ‘cadillac’ thing. With all the pressures from the environmentalists on our so-called elected representatives in Congress, along with $3.00 a gallon gasoline, the oil companies are doing lots of research on improving oils to catch up with the Japanese. One of the additives that may prove to be the answer is called molybdenum carbamate. This moly is soluble so it mixes with the oil and stays in suspension. It is very slippery like its cousin the gray stuff and it actually sticks to, or plates up, on metal parts as opposed to zinc phosphate, that does not stick to the metal. In the start and stop situations that our cars go through it is actually better than zinc phosphate. Some race only oils may have super high amounts of the zinc phosphate that is fine for a 500-mile race where the engine is never shut off
 

To sum up our take on oil and additives for flat tappet cams, the zinc phosphate additive of 1200ppm or greater is an excellent and relatively inexpensive extreme pressure lubricant for flat tappet cams. Its drawback is that it does not stick to metal parts. The larger problem will be finding out just how much of this additive may be in particular oil. We like the good diesel oils; Shell Rotella is good, with a CI-4 or CI-4+ rating and has zinc phosphate. Finally, the molybdenum carbamate (soluble moly) additive is so good that it should even bring the crap oil up to the point where it can be used with flat tappet cams. Now Love Bug can use his paw – paw’s crappy oil! Not only that but this additive won’t affect the precious ‘cadillac’ converter like the zinc phosphate will.

>

Molybdenum carbamate has been used for 50 years or more in the industrial and H.D. trucking industry. We will be offering this product as an oil additive. Hughes Engines Extreme Pressure Oil additive (#3690)  is recommended specifically for flat tappet camshafts where they will be used in stop and go applications. It can be added to any oil, good or crap. It will not affect catalytic converters. Yes, you can use it with roller cams, too! It is super slippery (slick) so if your rocker and pushrod tips live longer don’t be surprised. The manufacturer claims, better mileage, improved fuel mileage and reduced oil consumption. All of that is possible, but we are offering it for cam and lifter protection.

 

I did not fully read this Tech Article when I posted it. I assumed it contained the zinc package. What they are describing sounds like the answer to the whole problem. Thanks for pointing it out to me.




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KULTULZ
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speedpro56 (12/24/2006)

I am currently using shell rotella 5/40 syn.  My oil pressure is down slightly from the mobil one which was rated at 15/50.  I would rather run a slightly lower oil pressure than lose my cam and lifters.At 1500 of so RPMs my oil pressure stays on 50+lbs with the rotella.With the mobil you can add about 8 or so lbs.

Does this synthetic oil (SHELL ROTELLA SYN 5W-40) have a CI-4 rating? Is this a street engine or combination? A 15W-50 sounds awlful heavy for street (to me anyways).

I have read tech reports whereas the syn. will not allow proper tappet rotation (too slick)


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speedpro56
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Kultulz,I've put hundreds of thousands of miles on y-blocks using syn oils with no problems and the engines stay a lot cleaner than any non syn could ever do.I drove my 56 t-bird from Columbus Ohio 5 years or so ago with a quart of water in my crank case from a blown head gasket ofter racing.It was driven 500 miles to my house and I figured I would just have the whole thing rebuilt if I could just make it home.Low and behold I made it home with the oil pressure gauge going all over the place.My engine builder dropped the oil pan and was amazed to find nothing wrong anywhere.No wear just a quart or so of antifreeze with the mobil one 15/50 drained out.The oil kept the antifreeze off the medal parts,a real testament to mobil 1. 15/50 is not really a thick oil,it runs raelly easy.The Shell Rotella syn has a C1-4 rating.I have a dot of paint on each one of my push rods and you can watch them rotate as the engine idles,no problems there and was still using modle 1 synthetic 15/50.I would think you would want the oil to be slick enough to not wear out the lifters and cam.Just make sure there's enough rake on the cam to insure rotation of the lifters.Sometimes the cam grinders forget to put the .002 rake required and there goes another cam.    >Gary

-Gary Burnette-


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speedpro56 (12/24/2006)

I have a dot of paint on each one of my push rods and you can watch them rotate as the engine idles,no problems there and was still using modle 1 synthetic 15/50.

Now that is a neat trick I never thought of.

I will take your testament as to the use of syn. Smile

Gary


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KULTULZ
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Shell ROTELLA T- Approvals and Recommendations (Old Formula)

API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF (Diesel Specs)

API SL, SJ, SH (Gasoline Specs)


While called a DIESEL OIL, if marked as above with both DIESEL and GASOLINE SPECS, the oil is formulated to be used in either engine type.

(The above is only describing old formulation SHELL ROTELLA T)

The new formulation is CJ-4/SM and does not have the zinc package, so make sure you look at the specification when you pick up the container. It is confusing as SHELL is not changing the package appearance along with the new formulation.

SHELL has announced the CI-4 formualtion will still be available but most likely will not be found in retail outlets. You will most likely have to find a SHELL LUBRICANTS distributor in your area or order it online.

From http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/answercolumn_0506.html
 
SHELL ANSWER COLUMN

Q What is the new API CJ-4 all about?

A Shell has qualified the next generation of Shell ROTELLA® T to meet the new API CJ-4 service category for diesel motor oil. This new performance category is required for 2007 model year on-highway diesel engines. The oil is also suitable for use in pre-2007 on-highway diesel engines.

The new API CJ-4 category, previously referred to as PC-10, is designed to help protect against engine wear, piston deposits, soot, high temperatures, oil foaming and aeration, viscosity loss due to shear and minimize blocking of the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF).

A critical feature in the new API CJ-4 category is com-patibility with exhaust after-treatment devices such as a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) that will be used in vehicles meeting 2007 diesel emission requirements.

Changes to the formulation of diesel motor oil were required to meet the new standards. API CJ-4 diesel engine oil in combination with Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel, with a maximum sulfur content of 15 parts per million, will be necessary to maintain the durability and performance of a DPF.

Priority was also given to maintaining a high level of oil performance in new and existing engines that had been established by previous API categories. API CJ-4 engine oil can be used in pre-2007 diesel engines.

While compatibility with DPFs is the primary reason API CJ-4 was developed, overall oil performance was also enhanced in several key areas that will benefit new and current diesel engines. Improvements were also made to provide increased soot-related viscosity control, increased control of piston deposits and oil consumption and better wear protection.

As an industry leader, Shell is at the forefront in the development of lubricants world wide. Our new formulation, Shell ROTELLA® T with Triple Protection technology, was developed through millions of miles in 2007 on-highway diesel engines, as well as in current diesel engines.



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DANIEL TINDER
Posted 19 Years Ago
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I read something interesting recently re: assembly lube. I knew that it was routine to change the oil filter in a fresh engine after break-in, and I always assumed it was to remove any metal shavings. Turns out some of the cam lubes have a teflon/moly-type component that clogs the filter. So, it would seem that aside from the mixing problem, it indicates extra caution is required when selecting an additive to replace the zinc package in oil.

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA
KULTULZ
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DANIEL TINDER (12/25/2006)

I knew that it was routine to change the oil filter in a fresh engine after break-in, and I always assumed it was to remove any metal shavings. Turns out some of the cam lubes have a teflon/moly-type component that clogs the filter. So, it would seem that aside from the mixing problem, it indicates extra caution is required when selecting an additive to replace the zinc package in oil.

GOOD POINT!


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rgrove
Posted 19 Years Ago
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Holy tons of replies to my question, batman!  Boy oh boy - I go away for a bit and all kinds of activity... Thanks to everyone for the thoughts!

I have tried to get a hold of anybody at Mobil to try to get some answers, to no avail.  One of the main questions I still ahve to get answered is whether once you are running synthetics you can switch back?  If I dont, will I still have good cam protection with an oil additive and a synth oil?  Is this as simple as adding STP at every synth oil change?

Also, anybody know a good oil analysis place?  I want to get that done, and also dot my pushrods to see if they are all rotating....

Thanks!!

Ron Grove

Wauconda, IL

speedpro56
Posted 19 Years Ago
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I put a dot of white paint just under the pushrod cup for easy viewing and you can leave it there for future viewing. Yes you can switch back to conventional oil without adverse affects on the engine. I've done it a few times and always went back to synthetic because it's been a better oil for me.

Gary

-Gary Burnette-




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