Knowing Jerry and his intended use for this engine, I'm sure it had a very aggressive lobe and plenty of spring pressure.  The lifters may have had a lot of edge loading, this may have been the first to fail, the others may have been doomed also.  I wonder if he replaced the one lifter and continued his testing.  Schumann is proud of the hardness of his lifters, maybe they are hardened all the way through.  May be too brittle.  Has Jerry had the failed lifter, and possibly an unfailed one, analyzed by a metallurgist?

John - "The Hoosier Hurricane"

I’ll add that pushrod clearance issues at the heads and/or inadequate rocker arm to shaft clearance will destruct a lifter.

 

Although preferences for an undercut at the base of the lifter stem where it connects to the lifter foot seems to be divided, that undercut does allow the lifter to go up fully without jamming in the block at the bottom of the lifter bore.  The lifters I use all have this undercut.

 

With all that being said, I’m having no issues with either the Isky or Hylift Johnson tappets for the Y.  These lifters were used in the 2009 EMC engine with the over the nose pressures being right at 400 pounds and the camshaft suffered absolutely no wear.  Likewise, that same camshaft still looks good after being pulled from the 2010 EMC engine but the valve springs were changed up on the aluminum heads to provide only 330 pounds of over the nose pressure for that particular combination.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

So what do you guy's think of Elgin valve train part's? I plan on getting a "265 grind" cam from John Mummert, but I already have the other part's. I am putting together a pretty much stock 292 with three "97's" and Sanderson headers, going into a stock 56 F-100. any help from you guys will be appreciated. Thank's

I’ve used Elgin valves without any issues but have no experience with Elgin lifters though. Although hardness testing would be a good indicator of the soundness of the lifter quality, it’s out of the realm of the home mechanic. Visually inspecting each lifter for defects such as voids or porosity and putting a straight edge across each lifter face insuring that each lifter is ground with a ‘crown’ is something that can be done by the home assembler.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Yes, both hardness and case depth.  There are ways of checking with files, but again you need to know what you are doing.  The proper way would be to do a metallographic mount and perform a number of meaurements (traverse) for hardness and case depth using a certified hardness tester.

What are the concerns with the Ford 5120 Steel tappets?  It appears Ford went from cast iron, to steel, then back to cast iron.  It appears the later (>1962) Ford induction hardened cams specified cast iron tappets.

I would guess that more YB engines were originally equipped with cast iron than steel tappets.

Regards,

Dennis

  

 

What sort of experimentation has been done with using different materials for the camshaft / lifter interface? All of the materials technology I've seen discussed is traditional for flat tappets - but it might be archaic as well.

I've been using this stuff called "ToughMet" for sleeve bearings in unbelievably bad conditions. It commonly comes in a hardness of about 30 Rc - and absolutely resists being "welded to" or scored by iron based materials. Brush Wellman invented it to replace the Berylium Copper used since WWII for aeronautical engineering purposes (ball screws, etc.). This link will show you the engineering properties:

http://www.matthey.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/downloads/Fichiers_PDF/Toughmet_Engin_Guide.pdf

My contact for using it in the mining machines is Dave Krus - he may be able to tell us if it has been tested or used in a similar service to the cam lifter. Even if the iron or steel lifter body simply was fitted with a shrunk on bronze mushroom "foot" and upper pushrod socket, it might be able to do the job - maybe aluminum bar housing to change the weight?

 
 Steve Metzger       Tucson, Arizona

I was there when Jerry C's lifter failed... His engine was running on a warmup and cam break in cycle with light load at 3000 rpm.. Jerry's cam was not all that aggressive since it was for Engine Masters, 240ish with about .550 lift. Springs 110 and 280 lb. Rocker shafts were rebuilt units from Rocker Arm Specialists and no issues were found there.. It appears to me that the foot of the lifter shattered.. It could be that it was brittle since I do not believe it was loaded excessively.. Certainly not as much as Ted's engine with his higher lift and greater spring pressures. This is the first time I have seen this failure, but it sure was a buzz kill for our EMC hopes.. I would expect that as more folks start pushing valve trains now that the heads can keep up, we may see more of these failures.. I talked to a custom lifter mfg, and someone else had already spoke to them about a tool steel lifter for a Y so we may have something eventually. No doubt it will be pricey. It is my understanding that the hardness between cam and lifter needs to be roughly the same or one will eat the other. Steel rubbing on cast iron is a problem in some other areas (Billet Roller cam on cast iron block face, ....ask me how I know...) , but I think if the hardness is correct, material differences are not a factor Any metalurgists out there?

Royce, thanks for the flywheels, I took a pass on the block. As to the lifter, I couldn't see any other cause than just real bad luck. The exposed broken pieces sure looked coarse grained. It would be great to get these issues solved once and for all.I'm slowly assembling my engine and am really hesitant about the lifter compatiblity......too much money in machining and parts to count only on crossed fingers!!!     Thanks again, Barry L in Manitoba

Barry I sure would not risk it if I was unsure of my lifters origin. So far on the recent engines I have built I have been fortunate enough to find old stock USA mfg lifters.

It appears Ted has had good results with the Isky lifters when using them in the EMC engine. Kind of nice to find there still is an USA manufacturer instead of the off shore stuff. They are more pricey then the ebay stuf out there..... however a blown camshaft is not cheap and you still have to purchase another set of lifters.

John M. wrote awhile back about spring pressures and breaking of lifters. Here is the link.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic44380-11-2.aspx#bm44447

marv

Has anybody spoken to Vern about the failure.

I gotta admit that I"m a little concerned.

Got a fresh engine here waiting for Mummerts heads that have Vern"s "white box" lifters inside.

Now I am considering changing those out for some old N.I.B. Wohlert Johnson tappets that I was saving.

Wadduya think folks.Safe with Verns products?Or change them out to be safe?

Oldmics