Steve, thanks for doing the research and posting it,  bit of an eye-opener.

Pete, one of the Aussie mob. Beechworth, Victoria60 F100 Panel Van, Y-block. 65 Galaxie Country Sedan 390

Way to go,Steve.Those test strips are what I've always gotten from the Freightliner dealer.I never tried to find them at NAPA.Probably cheaper at NAPA.

 

Paul,

Boonville,MO

I re-read the printed copy I made of the Fina info and found this item I overlooked before:

"Chlorine/Chloride content: Antifreeze rapidly degrades if chlorine or chlorides are present in the antifreeze. Chlorides in the presence of acid components are especially corrosive towards aluminum radiators. Chloride is also corrosive towards copper and other metals. Chlorine content (determined by ASTM D-5384) in the coolant is the first thing a warranty claim will look at."

"The chlorine/chloride test is to determine the quality of unused coolant (?) as well as whether the user is taking proper care of his coolant and keeping it under 250 ppm of chlorine (an OEM requirement). Adding distilled water to coolant minimizes chloride content. Note tap water often contains about 500 ppm of chlorine."

I got a bottle of the test strips and dipped one in the radiator of the "green" (ahem) forklift.... It was previously flushed numerous times (with straight tap water), and then completely filled with distilled water and a single Prestone additive package (should have kept the bottle). No antifreeze (this is Arizona).

The NAPA test strip showed: Nitrite 500/800 ppm / Freeze point 32°F / pH 7.0 - which is of interest simply because it looks like you can get the Nitrites package by simply shopping for a yellow plastic bottle at Walmart or the auto parts store. Takes two for my size of cooling system though because the NAPA bottle says 1200 ppm is ideal and I'm only half way there. The strip shows the distilled water plain enough - neutral pH and no freeze resistance.

This is just making me ask more questions. Now I'm wondering if the recommended 50% antifreeze solution is necessary to make the mixture "base" enough to get the pH up to the 8.5 recommended minimum and beyond. I was hoping to not use antifreeze at all as it makes life pretty simple when doing a regular flush of the system. I think I'd like to just use distilled water, an additive package, and adjust the pH with something else.

 
 Steve Metzger       Tucson, Arizona

you could use rain water as well i know a few people that swear by it & wont use anything else ive used it in the cooling system on my rotary engine.

moz. geelong victoria australia.

graduate 1980, bus, truck, car, hot rod, boat, submarine, hovercraft, hydrafoil, firetruck, mobile home, jet, helicopter, cruise ship, motorcycle, bicycle, santa's sleigh, clock, alloy bullbar, alloy fuel tank, lens, dr who's tardis, matter - anti matter warp drive buffer & y-block lover

Hey Moz - We yanks have to look out for "acid rain" over here - eastern US has been getting some pretty low pH numbers according to the USGS.

Found other web references to the pH of radiator coolant late last eve - one stated that the "coolant should be a mixture of distilled water (pH 7.0/7.2) and a glycol based antifreeze (pH 10.5). With a 50/50 mix this nets an unadjusted pH value of approximately 8.75. This is low as the optimum value should be in the neighborhood of 9.2/10.2 ......." and after this grand revelation, they never suggested any method (or chemical components) of "adjusting " the mixture. I think we need to know what this adjusting chemical is - ideas or personal knowledge anyone???

Later I found some comments about a simple concoction used specifically for an aluminum headed small chebbie: 5% distilled water and 95% antifreeze - with interesting reasoning applied. First - the aluminum heads are much more efficient at transfer of heat and can successfully be used with the nearly straight antifreeze - whose molecules don't absorb heat as well as water. Second - the concoction has just about exactly the right optimum pH to avoid corrosion difficulties. This set-up will protect the heads and aluminum parts OK I'm sure - but freezing might be a different issue as straight antifreeze isn't as good at low temp protection as a water mix.

 
 Steve Metzger       Tucson, Arizona

AZ,

     A ph of 7 or 7.2 is basically neutral. That's what I would shoot for. Are you confusing acidity or Alkalinity with electrolysis? I'm pretty certain if we simply follow the recomendations of the newer Aluminum headed vehicles we'll have no problems. I would suggest a rust inhibitor be used on your 50 year old cast iron block after it's flushed thoroughly. 

             

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

Frank -

Nearly all of the coolant tech specs you can find are based on the required protection of diesel engines in fleet vehicles. The items they are trying to protect are exactly the same as we wish to protect in our gas engines. Iron blocks - pump seals - aluminum housings - copper or aluminum radiators ...... They never mention electolysis - only control of solution pH.

Virtually every tech source I found recommended that the finished coolant package be alkaline - not neutral. In fact, the numbers were pH on the order of 9.5 to as much as 10.5. This would make the solution somewhat naturally resistant to low level electrolysis correct?

Every tech source also recommended the use of distilled water (pH 7.0/7.2) to minmize the entrance of any extraneous elements that produce scale and also "start" the solution at neutral pH.

The use of tap water (with chlorine) was discouraged because it interacts with glycol antifreeze and becomes acidic (creates chloride compounds). It also contains solution elements that leave scale.

50/50 was the preferred mixture of antifreeze to water - but glycol antifreeze apparently has a pH of 10.5. When used at this ratio with distilled water the pH of the solution only reaches 8.75 - not up to the recommended 9.5/10.5. I don't have a chart at hand but 50/50 might not completely do the trick in wintertime Canada (lower than -34°F). 

Nitrite/nitrate additive packages were recommended - the NAPA coolant test strips showed 1200 ppm as a preferred level. This additive apparently resists rusting of iron in particular when subjected to high doses of sonic vibration.  

My bird has its cooling system filled with distilled water and a Prestone additive (no antifreeze) ph is 7.0 - just as you were thinking - so was I. But the testing kit I bought from NAPA indicates that the nitrate level is low (by about 50%) and the pH is low as well. A second bottle of the additive will probably fix the nitrate level OK - but what can be used to raise the pH of the solution? (short of going to an antifreeze mixture). 

 
 Steve Metzger       Tucson, Arizona

steve

after i posted i remembered acid rain something we dont think a lot about here but we do get it every now & then.

moz. geelong victoria australia.

graduate 1980, bus, truck, car, hot rod, boat, submarine, hovercraft, hydrafoil, firetruck, mobile home, jet, helicopter, cruise ship, motorcycle, bicycle, santa's sleigh, clock, alloy bullbar, alloy fuel tank, lens, dr who's tardis, matter - anti matter warp drive buffer & y-block lover

Steve,



While straight water/additive may well be the most efficient coolant, the boiling point is pretty low. I have gone to 70% Amsoil propylene, as I am running zero pressure these days (leaky head gaskets). Unlike standard antifreeze, it won't ruin your bearings if it gets into the oil, it has self-sealing properties, and the overflow puddle won't poison my cat. Pricey though.



Anyway, the 70% runs as cool as any other mix I have ever used, so I don't miss the pressure. If it wasn't for my open-air conditions, it would be as close to "permanent" as possible. I read where some diesels run 100% and never have to change/flush in a closed system.

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Steve,

        I'm sure the pH levels were concocted based on the use of some form of anti-freeze. I don't run anti-freeze in the F code car, it never goes out when the temp is much below 40. Also race tracks have a dim view of Glycol on their racing surfaces. I had not thought about the relationship of pH to conductivity, somebody will have to explain that to me. This conversation started out based on electrolysis, and wound up discussing erosion from acidic or alkaline based coolant. You may be on to something, but I'm not sure what. Aluminum does not like alkaline contact, but it absolutely hates acidic conditions. Maybe much of what we THINK is electrolysis is actually deterioration from reactions to the coolant. To me it makes no sense to run a pH that alkaline with either cast or aluminum, I'm going to ask some people some questions and see if I can come up with an answer.  

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart)