A friend of mine bought one of the first Boss 302s and that thing was a real monster.It was not really a street car.The only thing it was good at was going around curves.That wasn't much use in Central Illinois.No curves.

 

Paul,

Boonville,MO

 

"Speed costs how fast do you want to go". Rubbish.

 

Method 1. Ok I decide to rebuild my 312.  I decide that it will just be rebored and not interfered with in terms of capacity. I could (should) have my rods resized but instead I buy a set of BT rods and sell my old 312 rods on ebay. I can have a set of performance rods at little or no cost. Especially compared to what I needed to outlay to recon.

 

Method 2. I decide to save some cash on a rebuild and go with someone that says that can do it at less than the bloke down the road. Or I get talked out of performance component because “Speed cost” “just how fast do you want to go?” I have an engine failure. Or because of the restriction the part I saved on restricts me from what I wanted in the first place. This costs me a second rebuild or sell and move on.

 

Informing myself by asking questions and finding and realizing limitations builds a better engine and saves as it eliminates the need for a second rebuild because the limitation were not realized in the first place. Do as good as you can first up and never have to look back

 

Method 3.  I read a great internet article on performance parts and horsepower robbing components. The guy in question rebuilt a 302 using H beam rods, light pistons, moly push rods etc, to realize a 10% gain in performance without changing the parameters of the engine. 10%. There would be a saving in fuel costs and this engine would last longer. Performance parts that are often considered strengthening or reliability improvements can be also considered performance parts. If you used Ted’s test mule with alloy heads and added these parts to gain another 10% how sweet would that be? There is bang for buck in these components. Cost savings in engine life and fuel can be considered.

 

Method 4. The other end of the spectrum. I have a unlimited budget I want a Y block that delivers a certified dyno tested 1000hp and have it so streetable that my wife can drive it to church on Sunday.  “Speed cost, just how fast do you want to go?” indicates that with money you can go faster and faster and have just what you want. Impossible as there are limitations.

 

I have had experience with most of the above examples including both of the examples in method 2.  Both Mechanic’s (I use the term loosely) favorite statement was “Speed cost, just how fast do you want to go?”

 

Lastly my first passion is motorcycling I have three Moto Guzzi. If you think costs are high for a reasonably common 8V try buying stuff for an obscure Italian V twin. I bought Carillo rods. A set (pair) $1400 the last standard OEM cast piston I bough was almost $500.  When things go bust on a motorcycle you don’t necessarily quietly pull over to the side of the road.

 

I thought you guy's lived in the USA where free thought, free expression and justice for all prevailed. 

Grizzly (Aussie Mainline)

I appreciate what John and Ted are doing with the aluminium head. We are getting lots of information and some testing. Getting the full picture sometimes needs a prod or pushing for further information. But given how much of their own time these guys are putting in it’s not surprising that there is not the time to get absolutely everything out of them.

I had asked about using the race heads on the test mule for a number of reasons. The first tests showed “proof of concept” the heads showed improvements across the rev range on a typical engine with minor modifications. Scientifically the test showed that the old heads formed a restriction across the range when compared to the new.

With the information that only the race engine was to be tested with the ported heads. I asked if they could be tested on the “mule”. Thinking that even if the lower end showed a drop in performance we’d have a parameter or an indication of what won’t work. Often the best indicators are when something doesn’t work. If ported heads did work at low RPM the bar would have been raised.

The Y block should be able to support a head that have good flow because of piston velocity. A longer stroke compared to other engines of similar capacity should support better flow. High piston velocity provides better VE and higher torque at low RPM because of the ram effect.

Given that a 341cu/i is a possible street engine. About 10% larger than standard. Is it too much to expect that you would want a 10% increase in flow?

I understand the level of porting but we are in a development stage and looking for parameters by finding extremes.

Grizzly (Aussie Mainline)

I get what you're saying. And the heads were ported with the engine masters in mind where the test range will be 2500-6500. That's not out of line for a stout street engine in my opinion.


Lawrenceville, GA

Charlie, while the RPM range of the EMC engine is well within the range for a representative street engine, at 375 cu in the displacement is not. To run a 375 inch engine to even 6500 at power levels that will make a respectable showing at the contest takes CFM levels higher than 275, but to date that is the limit. Unfortunately, increasing air flow to that level required significantly enlarging the ports. Larger ports on a lower compression, smaller displacement engine will hurt power for street use. Bigger ports = lower velocity in the port. Port velocity is critical. It can be too high or too low.

Grizzly, I have built engines with a fairly standard short block and added performance parts like cam, intake, ignition, better exhaust ect. This can have good results within limits and not break the bank. A reasonable redline must be kept or the whole thing may be short lived. In that regard I agree with you. Some guys spend money needlessly. If you are building a 312 for a 57 T-Bird that will only be used for parades and Sunday cruises you probably don't need forged pistons, billet flywheel, head studs.

I am not familiar with BT rods. Don't know of any rods that will fit a Y-Block that can be purchased for the core value of 312 rods.

Why did you pay $1400 for 2 connecting rods? This seems to reinforce the "More speed costs more money" frame of mind.

If you are saying that taking the cheap way out can end up costing you more money in the end I agree whole heartedly.

http://ford-y-block.com 

20 miles east of San Diego, 20 miles north of Mexico

That makes sense, too. For some reason I thought it was going to be a smaller engine this year. I guess that plan was only if the new heads weren't available in time.



I didn't even notice that previous post.

Grizzly, I see several problems with the idea that speed doesn't cost money.

In the 1st method, you talk about only rods as the performance component. That is only a small part of the picture. There are many more parts that go into a true performance build. And if you really know of a good low cost alternative for rods, let us know.

I don't quite understand method 2 but I've never been talked out of a performance mod. If I decided not to do it, it's because I saw the price and decided that I really don't need it. If you set realistic goals, you'll never run into that problem, anyway.

In method 3, you talk only about a 10% gain. You certainly don't need the aluminum heads for that. Depending on what you start with, you may not even need porting... which costs more.

In method 4, I guess you're building off of my previous statement about having a 1500 horse Y one way or another. It absolutely is possible, just as much so as a 1500 horse small block or big block. It won't be OEM but neither is a small block or big block at that level. If I had the money laying around and didn't know what to do with it, I'd use it to have the parts cast, forged, or machined that will support that power level. But if you believe this doesn't cost money, then, with all due respect, you're crazy.



You're right. We are in the USA. Free thought and expression does prevail. As a result, free conversation and bench racing does, too.

As I've said previously, even the most educated get it wrong sometimes; nobody can know everything. The way you talk, it sounds like you know how to build a 500 horse Y for the same that it will cost to rebuild my stock 1961 292. There are those who talk and there are those who do. If you can do it, then by all means do it. Prove the naysayers wrong.


Lawrenceville, GA

i hope we'll see some aluminum heads at columbus so we can see what really works. after all we all have to live in the real world. of cource we'd all like to see what a set of max ported heads with a huffer will do, HA!HA!

 lincoln/merc. y-blocks &mel's                                                               bucyrus, ohio.

Charlie,

 

I’m all for some decent discussion but some of what you have said are straight insults.  There is a lot of BullS#*t in the performance industry. Unfortunately I have run into several examples who instead of discussing outcomes in a logical and informed way shove “speed cost, how fast do you want to go?” in at a very early stage.

 

It equates money to horsepower in an equation and in a linear way. It does not equate to the multitude of different directions that you can go with a rebuild. It ostracises those on small budgets or those who require less. It does nothing to encourage thorough tuning of engines and correcting setup.

 

If you’re wanting a rebuild and spending whatever level of your hard earned cash, you need to ask questions. People who know their product are usually only to happy to stand behind it with information and facts.  “speed cost, how fast do you want to go?” puts up a wall. Where can you go with this? Throw some idiot some cash and hope they know what you want intuitively? I doubt it! I’m sure they would never take advantage?

Grizzly (Aussie Mainline)

Although the 316” Y that was prepared for the 2008 Engine Masters Challenge is still sitting here, it’s a finance issue that keeps it from being tested with the aluminum heads and being a potential candidate for the 2010 EMC competition.  That engine needs another set of pistons, rings, camshaft, and lifters at the very least to make it competitive for this years EMC.  The 375 incher used in last years competition ends up being the preferred engine for this years competition by default as it’s the best fit with what’s on hand.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

John,

Yes I am yes. If you take the cheap way out It will end up costing you money.

The BT rods are your's $325 a set if I read right. If you consider the price of resizing they are cheap. The risk of using a 50year old possibly stressed part.

$1400 carillo's direct from carillo. 15 years ago original rods were $465 each. Carrillos are 100 grams a rod lighter.   

Cheers

Grizzly (Aussie Mainline)