Guys.  Had a great time at the Engine Masters Challenge and would definitely do it again.  I entered a 375 inch Y which ended up being too big an engine for the iron heads to have a really good score.  At 6700 rpms, the engine was just out of air.  Good peak numbers though and that’s what I was counting on.  The 316 incher I readied for last years competition would have had a much better score at the expense of reduced peak numbers.  The big numbers did not rule at this competition as there were several 800 plus horsepower engines but their average scores were down compared to the smaller engines.  Triple thanks goes to the other Y team members who assisted me at the EMC site which included Jody Orsag, Harry Hutten, Jerry Christenson, and Royce Brechler.

 

The 375 got that way by way of a 3.859” bore with a 4.00” stroke.  Pistons with a 9cc dish gave me a 10.1:1 static compression ratio and 9.0:1 dynamic compression ratio.  And the engine idled like a champ with a healthy rumble at 900 rpms through the mufflers.  The original plan was to enter the 4.00” bore X 4.00” stroke combination (403 CID) but the block just ended up not being strong enough once the cylinders were bored out and replaced with sleeves.  That engine ultimately twisted the block on a moderate dyno pull to the point the camshaft was difficult to remove.  A new set of pistons arrived in the middle of September for the 375” combination at which point the assembly of a new and smaller sized Y started going back together.

 

On my dyno, the 375 incher was peaking 462-464HP and 446-449 lbs/ft torque.  At the EMC competition, I lost numbers like the other competitors.  The best EMC numbers after tuning changes in preparation for the qualifying session netted the Y team 433HP and 416 lbs/ft torque peak values.  Still not too shabby for an engine We could have put back in a car (or truck) and driven back home on pump gas.  Although I tested the engine at 7000 rpms on my end, it was pushed to 7400-7500 rpms during the competition.  It held up just fine to the surprise of everyone at the competition.  After 49 pulls on my own dyno, I was reasonably confident that the engine was not going to be easy to hurt.  I had already increased the over the nose valve spring pressure from 330 lbs to 388 lbs during the course of testing just to insure that the rpm capability was going to be there.  The Isky cam and lifters are showing no signs of wear after all of this abuse.

 

The electric water pump is an Ebay big block scrub electric pump that I gutted and then made an aluminum plate to adapt it to the Y engine.  Although I had reservations about using it in the competition due to some air lock issues that were cropping up, it worked just fine in the competition.  In fact, the engine temperatures with each qualifying pull were consecutively dropping and the last pull was at 136°F which was in itself a performance deterrent.  When I build a new version of the electric pump, I do have a plan on how to make the pump self priming and eliminate the air block issue.

 

And that’s the short story of what happened at the Engine Masters Challenge.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Here are some pics showing more detail on the electric waterpump.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

GOOD SHOW TED!! Those numbers have too have surprised alot of bystanders and maybe we will get some good press from your efforts. With Mummerts heads and more compression looks like the roadster could get in the eights.

Glen Henderson



Freedom is not Free

Letohatchee, AL

Like I said before, Fantastic effort when measured against mostly newer engines  (50 years newer!) with the real restriction of 50 year old cast iron heads. A stiff blocked, smaller inch motor with John's heads could easily crack the top ten. That'd give them something to think about!!

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

Ted, thanks about those water pump pics and congrats about that good show at EMC! Waiting to see an unblown 500 hp Y-block in near future from you .

 Seppo from Järvenpää, Finland
www.hollowheads.net (just click the hole in the head to proceed)

Way to go Ted!!!  The publicity from this effort has to help our cause.  You have proved the limit of ported Y heads, so now we wait for John's aluminum pieces.

Paul, now you know how the 375 inch motor came to be.

John - "The Hoosier Hurricane"

Congrats Ted!!

Great job and vindication for all of us Y-blockers.  Y's are definitely running with the Big Dogs now.

If the competition rules stay the same for next year and the Aluminum heads do not materialize or (what I would like to see) the rules change to require OEM iron heads would you go for a smaller engine?  If I remember past EMC results there were engines as small as 288 CID.  I can't estimate how much extra would be gained in specific output but if going from 375 to 300 cid would result in a 10% increase,  you could be looking at about 400hp on your dyno.

Besides the iron heads, the Y seemed to have the least exotic induction system of any others I saw pictured on the EMC web site.  Are you thinking of any improvements on that side?

Let the hot stove discussions continue.

Doug T

The Highlands, Louisville, Ky.

The rules this year allowed engines as small as 280 cubic inches.  That got a 4.6 Ford Mod motor into the show.

 

Regardless if the heads are iron or aluminum, the smaller cubic inch Y engine would have been more favorable under this years rules format.  I know that now but in hindsite would not have known before actually testing this combination.  Better flowing aluminum heads will obviously support a larger engine though.  There’s no doubt in my mind that last years 316 engine with this years iron heads would have produced a much better score this year while potentially still coming close to the 400HP barrier with a pump gas combination.  At the EMC competition, it’s all about the score and not the peak values.

 

This years rules format specified a cast intake manifold without external modifications and the Mummert intake was definitely the best available.  A big Thank You goes out to John Mummert in getting me some of the new intakes to work with for this competition.  The next best intake design on the list was the Blue Thunder.  Most of the 3X2 and 2X4 intakes as originally cast are not the big power producers for this kind of competition and especially if limited to the carb bolt patterns that came on them.  If a good single plane design had been available, then that may have helped the overall score.  Testing is really the only way to know for sure on any of this.  This particular engine saw seven different intake manifolds on it during testing along with a variety of carb spacers and carburetors.  But an injection intake with Webers would be worth looking at based on the performance of the early Hemi that was running that combination this year.

 

The 375 incher did surprise me in testing when I tried a 1050 Holley Dominator on the Mummert intake and it made even better numbers.  Made three pulls with the Dominator and as I leaned the mixtures, the power levels just kept climbing.  Started out with 88 jets square and was down to 81 jets square by the third pull with the indicators still pointing to the engine being on the rich side with 81 jets.  And the Dominator idled just fine and cleanly with all the jet combinations.  Unfortunately I was already in a time crunch situation at that point and didn’t have the aluminum stock available to whittle out a spacer/adapter that would fit the rules.  For the test, I used a 2” adapter I had on hand just to try the Dominator carb and that particular adapter was just too tall as required by the rules.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Ted, thanks for sharing your great adventure, twas a motley crew indeed! we all are still excited, could you explain the crank/rod combo and how the cam/rod clearance was achieved, as thats a massive stroke for this engine, and was it a single 4bbl carb/intake? many thanks. regards bill.

  AussieBill            YYYY    Forever Y Block     YYYY

 Down Under, Australia

Crankshaft is a billet piece with Honda rod journals (1.889”).  The rods are 6.750” long and incorporate 3/8” rod bolts instead of 7/16” so they can be pulled in tighter to the bearing itself.  If I hadn’t gone with the .595/.602” lift on the cam, the rods would have cleared the cam with the smaller base circle.  But the rods did require a bit of tweaking at the tops of the rod bolt areas to clear the camshaft with the extra lobe lift.  Targetted for 0.050” clearance everywhere, not just the four rods that came close.

 

The new Mummert single four dual plane intake was used with a Holley 950HP carb (carb actualy flows 824cfm at 1.5Hg).

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Congratulations,

What a great team and a great accomplishment - JJ

And here are some more pics.

Uncrating the engine and the crowd is in awe.  "What is it?"

The Y rubbing elbows with the big guy.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Any chance someone made a video of dyno pulls that might get posted?

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Great job Ted!  You and all your teem should be proud.

   God Bless.   Tim                           http://yblockguy.com/

350ci Y-Block FED "Elwood", 301ci Y-Block Unibody LSR "Jake", 312ci Y-Block '58 F-100, 338ci Y-Block powered Model A Tudor

tim@yblockguy.com  Visalia, California    Just west of the Sequoias

Ted



Your my Hero!



Jim

  Jim Rowe Elkhorn, NE

Ted' ALL YOU GUYS did a GREAT JOB AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT!!!!!! We're really proud of all you guys period D.

-Gary Burnette-

Long live the Y block! Super Great job fellas! When will that "crate" motor go into production? 400hp off 87 pump gas with a good idle? are you kidding me? those Y blocks would sell like hot cakes!

Daniel Jessup

Lancaster, California

aka "The Hot Rod Reverend"
check out the 1955 Ford Fairlane build at www.hotrodreverend.com

There has been a lot of comments in the past with respect to the oem Heads being the serious power limitation. It seems that there is a generally held belief that Aluminum heads are much better. However, some aftermarket or high performance heads are being cast from Iron. My impression is that just making Heads from Aluminum doesn't make them significantly better, from a performance point of view. Lighter yes, (not of real benefit on a Dyno) and maybe a little better for heat dissipation, & controlling detonation, but not necessarily better overall.. Comments?

And a question for Ted; Was your Y-Block the only entry at the Engine Masters with Flat Lifters?

Paul

Ditto on what both Frank and Don says in regards to aluminum versus cast iron in cylinder head construction.  To reitterate, all else being equal, iron heads will typically make more power than aluminum.  But most newer aluminum castings incorporate advances in flow technology as well as improved combustion chamber designs that more than makes up for any inefficiencies of the aluminum being used.  Many of the newer heads are now increasing the horsepower outputs significantly without measurable flow increases on a flow bench so there’s obviously more to this than meets the eye.

I didn’t get to talk in detail but to a few of  the competitors about their choice of cams but roller camshafts were definitely in the majority.  The Y was clearly in a minority group if not by itself with its flat tappet camshaft.  Once the magazine articles come out with the details of each engine, that aspect should be more clear.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Paul,

   Aluminum heads are only better in one area, given the same ports and valves. They're lighter. Also, it's generally accepted that they are easier to repair. If they are dimensionally identicle to an iron head they'll actually produce a bit LESS horsepower! The aluminum. head transfers heat from the combustion chamber too quickly. Most aluminum heads are equipped with better ports and valves than the OE iron ones. The material around the combustion chamber is thicker to slow heat transfer rates and typically they'll have a smaller combustion chamber for more compression. It's common for an aluminum head to carry a point more CR and be able to use the same octane fuel  with out pre-ignition. Improving a stock 50 year old head shouldn't be a major problem, after all it wasn't designed to carry the amount of air we look for today. However, it turns out to be somewhat more difficult than you'd think. Ford did a pretty fair job on them, then completely blew the SBF 260/289 heads.

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

I believe one other benifit may be better combustion chamber design.

The Y design in all probability has a lot of swirl but the more modern heart shaped combusion chamber should add some performance.

Don,

        Absolutely, Mummert's aluminum head has a significantly different chamber from the Y-block heads. Of course they're not all the same either. Just looking at them with an uneducated eye, the 113's look to me to be the best. But i don't have a set of G's to compare. Be interesting to see a back to back between 471's 113's and G's on a dyno. The compression differences would definitely favor the G's But I wouldn't be surprised to find the 471 & 113 flowed as well. Shrouding of the valves by the chamber walls has a major effect of flow into the cylinder. That's one of the reasons big valves often show no real improvement.

.

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

Be interesting to see a back to back between 471's 113's and G's on a dyno. The compression differences would definitely favor the G's But I wouldn't be surprised to find the 471 & 113 flowed as well. Shrouding of the valves by the chamber walls has a major effect of flow into the cylinder. That's one of the reasons big valves often show no real improvement.



Ted,



Previously covered by John's YBM porting articles. If I had known in advance I would end up with domed pistons that had to be cut down, I likely wouldn't have started with "G" heads. Most all material I am now removing to CC match them is coming from around the intake valves.



P.S. One other disadvantage (though minor) of aluminum heads might be slower cranking due to the resultant static CR increase?

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Ted,

    824 cfm!!? I thought Y's didn't like big carbs!!

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

Actually this particular Y liked a 1050 cfm Holley Dominator carb.  Just didn’t have time to make a carb/spacer adapter that fit the rules before taking the engine to the competition.  Here’s a pic of the Y on the dyno with the Dominator carb.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

OOps, again I addressed Ted when I meant Frank! (brain short-circuiting)

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

Those headers are more than 1 1/2 too. Of course that's a big inch Y.

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart) 

The -471's definitely flow the best of the big valve castings but never done a back to back dyno test. As I recall G heads flow 169cfm, -113's 173cfm and -471's 180cfm.

Don't forget how important the exhaust port is. The most surprising engine I ever dyno'ed had the small letter ECZ-G heads, which in my opinion have the best exhaust port of any Y-Block head. The most disappointing engine had some heads that someone had hogged out the exhaust ports in all the wrong places.

Unfortunately that engine was the only one I've ever tested with the small letter Dearborn ECZ-G heads. No back-up to confirm the heads were the real difference.

With regards to heat disappation, an aluminum head has a lot less water in it to help reduce the amount of heat that is carried away. I studied alot of aftermarket alum heads to try to get an idea of how much to leave out. The stock Y heads have water all the way to the intake gasket surface. Aluminum heads have just enough to cool the exhaust ports, valve guides and combustion chamber.

Crash test aluminum head is in the CNC machine and spent last weekend and Monday on program. Might not have much chance to work on it again before Friday. Hope to have it pretty well complete by Sunday PM.

http://ford-y-block.com 

20 miles east of San Diego, 20 miles north of Mexico

EMC follow up. When will Popular Hot Rodding publish the results?..

Paul

Based on what I was told at the competition, The Popular Hot Rodding issue with the indepth article listing all the competitors and a description of the engines is expected to be the February issue.  I just received the January issue so its maybe only a month away.

The Engine Masters magazine itself will be out in early spring at the stores.  The EMC magazine is only published quarterly so there is no subscription available for it, newstand availability only for that one.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)

Its great to hear all you guys have to say. I'm graduating from Flatheads to Y Blocks. I have a lot to learn! I'm just starting to build my first one. I'm putting a 312 crank into a 292 with G heads. I have a 3/2 Edlebrock intake and an F100 Isky cam. It'll also have a Scheffer aluminum flywheel. It's going into a 52 Tudor with a T5 tranny. Thanks for not only keeping it alaive, but alive and fun!

Life isn't about arriving at the end in a pristine, well preserved body; It's about sliding in sideways, all clapped out, yelling "What a ride!"