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Camshaft timing

Posted By 1946international 4 Years Ago
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1946international
Posted 4 Years Ago
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First, thanks for all the help. This is what I came up with.
rechecking the center line on #1 Intake   it is 108.75*
I checked #1 Exhaust     that is   107*
I checked #6 Intake       that is   108.5*
I checked #6  Exhaust  that is     108* 

Other stuff I checked:
Cam card says Intake should open .050" at 4* BTDC   Actual is 2* BTDC  for #1   1.5* for #6
card says Exhaust should open  .050' at 44* BBDC     Actual is 42.5* BBDC for #1   42* for #6  
Lobe lift for intake & Exhaust  should be .314"  Actual for #1 intake is .312" and intake on #6 .315"   is Exhaust on #1 is .317"  and Exhaust on #6 is .311" 
I just checked the lobe lift as I was in there with an dial indicator. 
So, if I'm thinking right I should advance the cam 2* to get the opening times better and maybe another 2* to allow for some timing set wear. As it is at 6* retarded now, I should go back to 2* retarted.
Thoughts?


1946international
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Slumlord, Thanks for that. I'll do some rechecking today
slumlord444
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When I put a custom ground Isky cam in my 312 several years ago it was off by quite a bit. Don't remember exactly how much but i got help form Ted setting it up and am sure I got it right. The engine is as strong as I thought it would be when I finally got everything else sorted out. Measure carefully and triple check it to make sure. 
1946international
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Thanks all for the replies. Ted asked if the timing set was new and yes it is. I read those articles earlier today. 
So I will check the center line of the exhaust on both #1 & #6 to see where I stand. 
Joe-JDC
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The closer to the top you have the piston stop, the smaller the numbers you will work with and less room for error in finding the true TDC.  In reality if you do it correctly, the distance doesn't matter.  I prefer to work with being close to TDC since it makes reading the degree wheel easier.  Joe-JDC

JDC
BamaBob
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Thanks Ted, for the very informative articles. I do have a question, though. In using the piston stop, does it matter whether the piston is as close to the top as it can be, or can it be just close to the top, as in a half inch or so? I have never used a degree wheel, but am intending to in the near future and need to know all I can learn about its use.
Ted
Posted 4 Years Ago
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As a general rule, always check both an intake and exhaust lobe on a given cylinder.  The two values added together and divided by two is expected to equal the ‘as ground’ lobe centerline.  In your case, 108°.  Only when the camshaft is installed where both the intake and exhaust lobe centerlines are equal is the camshaft installed straight up.  When the intake lobe centerline angle is less than the ‘as ground’ lobe centerline the camshaft is advanced.  Likewise when the intake lobe centerline angle is more than the ‘as ground’ centerline angle the camshaft is retarded.
 
I’ll suggest also checking the cam timing on the #6 cylinder.  This will confirm both your checking methodology and if the camshaft is at least the same on those two cylinders.  If you find a 2° or more discrepancy, then you may need to check all the cylinders and determine if this is a problem where the left bank does not agree with the right bank.  If that’s the case, the camshaft was ground on the incorrect lifter bank angle.  By checking the camshaft timing on different cylinders and especially opposite banks you will get a good feel for how good the cam grinder is doing their work.
 
But back to basics.  Being six degrees off on the cam timing is not unheard of.  And when I say off, I mean from where the manufacturer or cam grinder recommends where the camshaft is to be initially installed.  Most cam grinders specify four degrees of advance and that is typically built into the camshaft so that when the gear marks are properly aligned, the camshaft is close to where it needs to be.  In your case and assuming it’s a new timing chain set, then consider installing that camshaft at 104°-106° intake lobe centerline so that as the timing chain loosens up, the camshaft will not be residing in a retarded position.  I have found camshafts off as much as 18° off either as retarded or advanced and that’s with the timing gear marks simply aligned as they should be.  In those cases, the timing chain is reinstalled with a one tooth offset on the gear marks versus being aligned as was originally designed.  In rare instances I have had to broach a new key way slot in the crankshaft gear in which to compensate.
 
Here are links to the camshaft degreeing articles that were published in The Y-Block Magazine several years ago.
 
https://www.eatonbalancing.com/2015/09/24/degreeing-in-the-camshaft-part-i-finding-tdc/
 
https://www.eatonbalancing.com/2015/09/24/degreeing-in-the-camshaft-part-ii-phasing-the-camshaft/
 
https://www.eatonbalancing.com/2015/09/24/degreeing-in-the-camshaft-part-iii-its-twelve-pins-between-the-marks-for-the-ford-y/


Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)


1946international
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Joe-JDC (3/5/2021)
We(Ted and I) found the Comp Camshafts for the Y block were ground on the wrong lifter angle and when you advanced or retarded the camshaft, it was off on every lobe from the cam card.  Straight up was the only way it matched the cam card.  Had 3 Jones camshafts the same problem.  Howards, Jones, Comp all use the wrong lifter angle when grinding their camshafts.  ISKY uses the correct angle, and you can advance or retard the ISKY with confidence.   Just my experience, but I called Mike Jones, and he now has the right angles, and he reground me three camshafts for free.  They checked out when degreeing after the modification to correct valve angle.  Joe-JDC

So, if I check the valve timing for opening timing and find they are not matching what the cam card says I should try setting it up "straight up" and recheck opening time to see if it then matches the cam card? 
1946international
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Cliff (3/5/2021)
You might want to install it at 2 deg advance from what the cam card tells you.


how does the cam card say that? am I not seeing something?
55blacktie
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Joe-JDC, I had some knowledge of lifter angle, but I did not know about Howard's using the wrong angle. If that's true, I'm glad I didn't buy a Howard's cam. I hope Schneider got it right.

Thanks for the info.


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