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Camshaft timing

Posted By 1946international 3 Years Ago
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slumlord444
Posted 3 Years Ago
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When I put a custom ground Isky cam in my 312 several years ago it was off by quite a bit. Don't remember exactly how much but i got help form Ted setting it up and am sure I got it right. The engine is as strong as I thought it would be when I finally got everything else sorted out. Measure carefully and triple check it to make sure. 
1946international
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Slumlord, Thanks for that. I'll do some rechecking today
1946international
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First, thanks for all the help. This is what I came up with.
rechecking the center line on #1 Intake   it is 108.75*
I checked #1 Exhaust     that is   107*
I checked #6 Intake       that is   108.5*
I checked #6  Exhaust  that is     108* 

Other stuff I checked:
Cam card says Intake should open .050" at 4* BTDC   Actual is 2* BTDC  for #1   1.5* for #6
card says Exhaust should open  .050' at 44* BBDC     Actual is 42.5* BBDC for #1   42* for #6  
Lobe lift for intake & Exhaust  should be .314"  Actual for #1 intake is .312" and intake on #6 .315"   is Exhaust on #1 is .317"  and Exhaust on #6 is .311" 
I just checked the lobe lift as I was in there with an dial indicator. 
So, if I'm thinking right I should advance the cam 2* to get the opening times better and maybe another 2* to allow for some timing set wear. As it is at 6* retarded now, I should go back to 2* retarted.
Thoughts?


Ted
Posted 3 Years Ago
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Unless you also check the closing event side of the camshaft, it’s not a good prtactice to move a camshaft around based only on the opening event side of the camshaft.  At this point you don’t know if the lobes are cut exactly right without knowing what the closing event numbers are.  In your case use the lobe centerline measurements which you have determined by going to each side of the lobe.  Because the camshaft is essentially installed straight up based on the lobe centerline measurements, then you need to advance it about 4°.


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1946international
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OK, so I'll move it 4* advance from where it is now. Thanks so much for the help. The other day when I was talking to the Comp Cam guy he said something like "that is a very late opening cam" what are your thoughts on that? is it a late opening cam? Will this make good power for a street car? It's going in a '30 Model A with a 3 speed manual trans with 3.73 gears and 31" tall rear tires.
Joe-JDC
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You have to get your opening events, and your closing events, add them together and divide by two to get the actual centerline.  Have you done that?  Don't move the gears until you follow up like Ted said.  Joe-JDC

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1946international
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No, I did not do the closing events yet. I thought Ted was saying don't advance it any just because of my "opening stats" but did say " In your case use the lobe centerline measurements which you have determined by going to each side of the lobe.  Because the camshaft is essentially installed straight up based on the lobe centerline measurements, then you need to advance it about 4°."

Meaning, don't make changes on the reported opening times but I should make changes based on the centerline numbers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Joe-JDC
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That is not how I read it, but I will back out and let Ted answer if he feels he needs to clarify anything.  Joe-JDC

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1946international
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Joe, you are probably right                 I just checked the closing times on #1 & #6. This is what I found:
Spec on the cam card for Intake closing is @.050" 40* ABDC    actual for #1 @ .050" is 40.5* and actual for #6 is 40.5*
spec on card for Exhaust closing is   @.050" 7* ATDC                actual for #1 @ .050" is 8*   and actual for #6 is  7.5*  
and I just brought the opening numbers down to make the comparison easier   

Cam card says Intake should open .050" at 4* BTDC   Actual is 2* BTDC  for #1   1.5* for #6
card says Exhaust should open  .050' at 44* BBDC     Actual is 42.5* BBDC for #1   42* for #6  
Ted
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1946international (3/8/2021)
......Meaning, don't make changes on the reported opening times but I should make changes based on the centerline numbers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You’re not wrong and neither is Joe.  If you are coming up with different values when doing the cam degree in process by both the lobe centerline method and checking it at 0.050” lifter rise, then attribute that to the cam grinder not matching the actual camshaft grinding to what’s listed on the card.  The key here is that all the lobes for the various cylinders measure the same.
 
There are two different methodologies for checking a camshaft as to where it’s installed in relation to TDC.  One of those is the centerline method of which you provided all the lobe centerline values for both the intakes and exhausts for both the #1 and #6 cylinders.  This is typically the most accurate method.
 
If you are actually trying to compare the opening and closing values on the cam card for either verifying the advertised or the 0.050” numbers, then this takes a different approach.  This will require zeroing out the dial indicator on the base circle of the camshaft and measuring the crankshaft degrees at specific levels of lobe lift.  As a general rule, the hydraulic camshafts use 0.006” lobe lift for measuring advertised duration while solid lifter camshafts use 0.020” lobe lift for the advertised duration.  Most cam cards will also provide opening and closing numbers at 0.050” lifts and those values are pretty much universal with all cam grinders while the advertised values may vary somewhat.  If attempting to reverse engineer from a camshaft the specs for which there is no information available, then measuring both the advertised and 0.050” lifter rise numbers can get you this information.
 
So this brings us to the other method of degreeing in the camshaft which is using the advertised or 0.050” opening/closing numbers to check the cam timing.  This method will confirm if the cam is indeed matching the specs on the cam card but do not be surprised at some variability with this method.  It must also be noted that the measurements when doing this are not complete without doing both the opening and closing sides of a given lobe.  Doing only one side and not the other fails to give a complete picture.
 
If you do enough of these, you’ll find a very consistent discrepancy between what the cam card says and what is actually measured.  Part is this is due to the high viscous break-in lube that’s applied to the lobes which will distort the measurements.  Another part is due to the cam grinding operation where the  pattern being used on the cam grinding machine does not exactly match the cam card either due to that piece becoming worn, slop or wear in the machine itself, or in making a duplicate pattern from a duplicate where errors tend to stack up on each other.



Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)




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