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By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
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I received a heads up from another guy who reads but can't log onto this site. The March '08 issue of Street Rodder Magazine has an article about engine oil and flat tappet cams. I haven't seen it yet. Thanks KidKourier. John
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By 1964fordf100292 - 17 Years Ago
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ok. I have been following the zddp topic and i keep hearing everyone using the 15/40 and 20/50 oils from like rotella and valvoline vr-1 line, and redline but i am curious, how many of you drive your trucks in winter. see, i am in mideastern north dakota in the red river valley and well, from what i have been taught, 15/40 motor oil at 0F isnt exactly good for the motor or the starter. hard on the oil pump driveshaft. I guess what i am asking is. Is there any other oils that i can use in place of the 15/40 or 20/50 deisel or racing oils that still have the higher zddp content. is ther any 10/30 or 5/30 oils that still hae the higher zddp?????? also, ifther isnt any oils that work better for my climate, will slick 50 or additives like that, be an option????? just cant afford to wipe out a cam lobe because of the wrong oil. ya know..
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 17 Years Ago
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As for all this talk about oils I think I am more confused than ever!  But then again, it don't take much. I recently asked an owner of a local Penzoil Lube Center what he has heard from his suppliers on the subject. He told me that Penzoil recomends the use of "Molley Slip" with their oils for flat tappet cam engines. I inquired as to what I should use in my engine as I am going to assume it is high mileage (true mileage is unknown), he recomended that due to the clearances in older motors and the fact that I do not drive the car in winter, that I should be running 20w/50 plus 2 cans of "Molley Slip" with each oil change. I am going to assume he knows what he is talking about, but I could be wrong! Now that's my 2 cents!  Rob
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By Tom Compton - 17 Years Ago
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Pardon my skepticism, Rob, but I find it hard to listen to a person pitching their own product any more. AMS guy was here and talked about 20-25 minutes when asked about flat tappets but did not say anything about zinc or how the AMS racing product would off set the lack of zinc. When pressed, he admitted he only learned the talking points and really did not know the answer. Purple Slurple response was equally as vague and evasive but he was sure the purple stuff was what was needed. Seems chriopracters will prescribe an adjustment for the same thing a surgeon prescribes cutting. Ted is trying an addative and if it works may be worth the expense but as I recall about $10 an oil change and another $10 for shipping. I, too, have a small inventory of diesel oil but now understand the diesel oils have way more detergent than should be used in gas burning flat tappet engines. Till I have a better handle on it, will alternate between diesel w/ zddp and one of the racing oils. TC
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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It's odd and a little irritating that the magazines are finally writing about ZDDP and flat tappet cams. Irritating because we have been flogging the subject on the 'net for so many years, and only now are they beginning to write about it. And I promise you they will get it wrong.
On another subject; there are two kinds of ZDDP. One is used in diesel engines and the other is for gas engines. The diesel engine stuff is, of course, not the ideal solution for gas engines. Big duh, huh? Why else would they make two kinds if one kind worked in both engines. Rotella, Delvac, etc. is the wrong kind of ZDDP. But why do I feel like so many people don't seem to know this?
Off-road motorcycle oil often has the right kind. STP oil treatment for 4 cycle engines. GM EOS used to have this, but there's conflicting information about its availability these days.
All this information is on the 'net. I hope everybody does their own research, research from primary sources, not from forums.
Good luck.
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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The latest API SM classification now means some variability in the amount of zinc and here are the rules as I interpret them. If the oil is 30W or less (ie. 5W-20, 10W-30), the zinc/phosphorus is reduced to 800ppm max. But if the oil is greater than 30W (10W-40, 20W-50), the zinc levels remain at 1200-1400ppm. If the oil is classified as SM but has “Racing” or “High Mileage” on the label, then it will have the 1200-1400ppm zinc regardless of the oil weight or viscosity.
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When in doubt about the amount of zinc in an oil, just pull up the manufacturers MSDS or technical sheet and you can pull the actual zinc/phosphorus content information out of that.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 17 Years Ago
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So Ted, If I understand your previous post, by just running a good quality 20W/50 as i have been, I will be fine, with no additives required? Rob
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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Canadian Hot Rodder (1/11/2008)
So Ted, If I understand your previous post, by just running a good quality 20W/50 as i have been, I will be fine, with no additives required? RobThat’s right. Upon getting some of the newer Valvoline Racing 20W-50 and seeing it with a SM classification, I quizzed the local oil rep about it and was informed that this particular oil had 1300 ppm of zinc regardless of the SM classification. I verified this by going to the Ashland website where I found the updated technical sheet on SM rated Valvoline racing oil. If you still run an oil with 30W or less viscosity, then a zinc additive would still provide a margin of safety especially if running higher than stock valve spring pressures. Feel free to post any information that rebukes this.
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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I'd have to agree with Ted based on personal experience. As I said in another post, I ran regular valvoline 20w50 without additives for 11k miles. I think I may have used mobile1 20w50 for about 3k of the 11k. Upon teardown, I found nothing was worn prematurely. In fact, I'm using the same cam and lifters in the new motor. There was a problem with the engine - a wristpin clip broke but I don't think the oil had anything to do with this. I'm really not sure how that happened at all.
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By 1964fordf100292 - 17 Years Ago
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hey guys, got something interesting to ask and share. I was at napa the other day and i was looking at the oils to see what the api spec in each one was(looking forthe energy conserving label) and I came across valvolines maxlife that had the SJ not the SM energy conserving. now my understanding is, if it doenst say energy conserving in the api spec circle, it means that it has the higher zinc content. am I right?????
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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Don’t recall the ‘energy conserving’ rule off hand without looking it up. But oil with API classification of SJ would still be the higher phosphorus/zinc content of ~1300 ppm regardless of the other labeling. When the classification changed to SL, the amount reduced to a max of 1000 ppm. And with the change to SM, a further reduction to a maximum of 800 ppm for just those oils rated at 30W or less. Just remember the viscosity and labeling nuances stated earlier and you can still get oil with the higher zinc content even though it’s classified as SM.
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By 1964fordf100292 - 17 Years Ago
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hey guys. checkthis out. this article bounces arounda bit and is a lil contradictory to what i have read but check it out anyways. here's the link: http://www.fmrcoa.org/newsletter/2006/Sept%2007%20Newsletter_Screen.pdf
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By PF Arcand - 17 Years Ago
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Ted & '64 Ford: Ted, this subject has been all over the map in recent months, but your explanation of the ratings & anti scuff material content is probably the best I've read. Thanks!.. And 64 Ford brings up a good point on the energy saving rated oils, the ones with the "starburst" on the label. In an article in YBM a year or so ago, John Mummert recommends "not" using those oils in solid lifter/ flat tappet engines, as they are intended for late model engines & are low in anti scuff content..
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By John Del Bene - 17 Years Ago
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Hi with all the hype about the zinc taken out of the motor oil seems to have us a wondering what to put in our y-blocks . I was reading an ad in Street Rodder for Amsoil synthetics. To find out about Amsoil call 1-800-777-8491 or go to www.amsoil.com
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By kevink1955 - 17 Years Ago
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I know your pain on the broken clip. I had 1 break and the parts passed thru the pin so not only was 1 side of the bore damaged, they both were. When I first pulled the head I could not figgure out what would score both sides of the bore. I now have a cylinder with a sleve in it. Has run the last 10,000 miles with no problems. As for oil, I have been using Valvoline 10-40 and GM EOS that I had stockpiled before it was discontinued. I was told it was back on the market but it is not the same product anymore.
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By Gerry - 17 Years Ago
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Spotted this at our local Kragen auto supply I found something never noted before. Valvoline racing "VR1" has a little tag on the bottle HIGH ZINK for flat tappet engines. got a link that I don't understand all the terms but here it is, sounds like what we need for Y blocks http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf If this has been discussed and decided on sorry... Gerry
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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Actually, that is what I've been using for 3 or 4 years now.
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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My understanding is that it's not the zinc that lubricates the cam, it's the Dialkyl DithioPhosphate that lubricates the cam. The Zinc is just the best way to get the rest of the molecule to the cam. When the molecule gets to the cam it attaches to the Iron Oxide and the Zinc goes into the bottom of the pan as sludge.
There was some research done by a tribologist at a Texas University. He had examined ZDDP using an electron microscope and found that it formed a fish scale like coating on the iron oxide surfaces of engine parts. As I recall, up to that point they did not know why ZDDP was a good anti-scuff agent.
Wow, searching for the online research finds some interesting stuff, including a possible explanation about why there is a break-in procedure for cams; the build-up of DDP on iron is an observable sequence.
Sciencedirect.com
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By John Del Bene - 17 Years Ago
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Hi I went to the Adirondacks Nationals at Lake George New York. I saw some guys selling a product called Cam Shield oil treatment with premium ZDDP. you add it to your regular motor oil. One 8 ounce bottle treats 16 to 32 quarts of oil 4ounce 8 to 16 quarts. I don't recall the price. You can check it out on line at www.cam-shield.com I hope this info will be helpful to all of us Y-Block people. John
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By ALANB - 17 Years Ago
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 Maybe this is old news but , I actually never heard of "Molly Slip " ... Stp Oil treatment is still on any Part's stores display !! I farmed for 20 years and never had a major breakdown , useing DELO #40 (Standard Oil) in everything , Cars trucks and Caterpillars !!! The very high detergancy is simply to keep a clean engine and the oil turning dark soon after a change is a result of that ... Many truckers use a gallon of STP @ every oil change !!! ALAN B .
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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This is an old topic, but I’ll reitterate some of the points that have been expounded on in the past. STP gets a lot of credit for having the necessary zinc compounds or zddp to deter cam and lifter wear on flat tappet camshafts but upon examining the MSDS for the product, you’ll find that these compounds are minimal and will not boost Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate (zinc for short) levels in API SL or API SM oils to the API SJ and earlier levels. In fact, it barely supplements the amounts present in the earlier API SJ and earlier oils. But in STP’s defense, it was not originally formulated to provide these additional wear additives and the formulation has not been adjusted (based on the latest MSDS) to supplement the Zinc wear compounds that have been removed from the API SL and API SM oils. But there are a multitude of oil additives on the market now that will provide the required additional amounts of zinc (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate) wear compounds to the API SM oils that are 30W and less. If the oil viscosity is over 30W, then the required amounts are still there at the earlier levels and were never removed. Some of this info was mentioned almost a year ago on page one of this particular thread. . STP MSDS Link . What must be remembered is that the mandate for zddp reduction was not to reduce the zinc but to reduce the phosphate compounds that are present in the oil. It’s the phosphate that is a perceived problem for the catalytic converters and it is the phosphate that was mandated to be reduced. The phosphate is the component which is attracted to the heat from a metal to metal contact and the zinc simply follows the phosphate around and attaches itself as an anti-wear agent to wherever the heat is being generated as a result of the any friction being generated. With the mandate to reduce the phosphate, the zinc amount itself had to be reduced as the two are partners or symbiotic in their relationship. This is the simple explanation. . For those who are unfamiliar with doing a search on the site, here are links to past threads in which to bring newbies up to speed. But by all means do a seach for zinc or zddp to bring up even more on the subject as it’s been covered extensively over the last couple of years on this site and others and much longer than that if you include the old YBF site.http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic8508-3.aspx http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic1528-3.aspx . The search function is found at the top and upper right of each page. Give it a whirl.
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By PF Arcand - 17 Years Ago
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Rob/ Canadian Hot Rodder: Since you are using 20-50 oil, can we assume that your not starting & driving your car during the worst of Ontario winters? Or that you are using a block heater or heat source of some sort? I would be reluctant to cold start your car during deep freeze ups with that oil...
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By speedpro56 - 17 Years Ago
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Looking at the mobil 1 site it shows 20-50 pouring at 40 below sorta like the words outta the song springtime in Alaska sung by one of my favorite singers Johnny Horton.
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By Ol Ford Guy - 17 Years Ago
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Speaking of Alaska, and Canada too I guess, the 1950's & 60's DEW Line (Distant Early Warning) defense radar operators had trouble starting vehicles in the cold climate. They always had to use heaters. I heard that a switch to synthetic lubricants eliminated the need for the heaters. The first synthetic I heard of was Anderol, I think Tom Ivo ran it in his Buick powered dragsters in the 60's. What I wonder about these days, is the amount of synthetic in the blended lubricants...I guess that should be a new thread.
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By speedpro56 - 17 Years Ago
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The last thread I just posted should have stated 15-50 not 20-50 mobil 1. Sorry about that.
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