|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
New Member - First Post
Due to cold starting issues and the relative inaccessibility to the inside of the distributor, I decided to get an electronic ignition kit from Pertronix.
I struggled, but got the thing installed (couldn't get the rubber grommet all the way through the hole in the back of the dist, but whatever...) I even had to curl the wire lead ends to get them through the hole, so it must be smaller than most.
The car is very original 43,000 miles, so I suspect it has the original distributor.
It had been changed to negative ground prior to my purchasing it so I ordered the version for the negative ground 6 volt system.
At first the car wouldn't start. Then I noticed it would cough and gasp at the moment I let off the starter. Well eventually it started but ran rough, especially at low RPM.
I called Pertronix and they suggested it might be low voltage, so I did the test running the extra wire from the Pos side of the Distr to the battery and it seemed to be the answer.
Now, to my actual question (FINALLY!).
Pertronix says to run an additional wire lead to a switched (on only when key is on) power source. I'm wondering what is the EASIEST source for that. I even thought of running it back through the firewall to the ignition in parallel with the existing wire.
Final informational point. I don't understand electricity. It's like some kind of voodoo witchcraft to me. Thus I got my engineering degree in Civil/Dirt engineering to avoid it if at all possible.
To be frank, I'm kind of disappointed the situation exists at all? The kits are sold as drop in (plug and play) so now I've got a piggy-back problem to solve.
TIA for any and all advice!
Meandean
|
|
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
|
|
The easiest is usually the original wire that went to the points. However, if that is what you are doing and you're not getting full voltage, you will need to find out why. The problem is most likely not related to the Pertronix, but the 58 year old car, corrosion, a bad wire, a poor connection, a faulty ignition switch, etc. Pertronix cannot account for those kinds of problems.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
Okay, the tech from Pertronix said the original points are less demanding as far as the required voltage versus their electronic system. I wonder what percent work fine out of the box and what percent have this issue.
Regardless, thanks for the reply.
|
|
By Pete 55Tbird - 11 Years Ago
|
|
I have a Pertronix that has worked well for at least 10 years. My impression is that if a car runs poorly or not at all some owners buy a Pertronix and expect it will act like a miracle cure. Sorry, you still need to do the basic type of maintance and upkeep. Old age, wear and tear can and do cause problems and they will have to be addressed if you want a good running car. Pete
|
|
By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
|
Running a parallel back to the ignition switch may help - but be aware the voltage may be low, even to the starter switch. The connection points for the wiring may have corrosion etc. all the way through. A cheapo volt meter is what you need to troubleshoot this stuff - visit Sears or Walmart. Even my dad (a CE for 60+ years) eventually learned to make lights work.
Every connection - back to the battery - is a place to lose voltage and with a six volt system, you don't have to lose much to have a problem. The Pertronix brain is probably happy down to 5 volts - and then its losing interest. The points on the other hand have no brain and will happily cause an inductive spark at a lot lower value.
You can also lose voltage on the ground side of this system - so the base of the Pertronix module must ground back to the engine block (which in turn must have a good ground to your battery). If those grounds have internal resistance - it will also drop the voltage.
Have fun! 
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
Thanks Steve. That's what I'm going to try first.
The Pertronix instructions say to run the red wire to another 6 volt switched source, so I'll try that.
I think I may have a voltmeter (free from Harbor Freight) or my youngest brother is an electrician (with a 57 custom, now with a 390, that's been in the family since new) so I can call on him if I end up baffled.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
Okay, I ran a parallel wire from the + side of the coil to the ignition. I found where the radio is connected and used that same pole off the ignition since the radio only comes on with the ignition. Went to start it and again, it only wants to kick/start at the instant when I'm disengaging the starter. Obviously the starter is sucking all the oomph while it turns and only when released does the ignition get up to voltage and allow the engine to start.
The first near start was kind of spooky. I have the air cleaner off while working and gasoline sprayed up out of the carburetor. I wiped it down and waited a while and tried it again and it started - initially I thought it was idling smoothly. I turned it off and tried it again and when it started the second time it seemed back to running rough at idle.
I broke out the multimeter and tested the voltage. With the key on and engine off I got reading all over the place, but mostly in the high 5's (5.8 etc), with some down in the 2's. The meter readings changed at least once a second. That was from the hot side of the coil with the red probe and grounding the black probe on the intake manifold. I would think that would be adequate for the Pertronix.
I suppose it would be a good idea to take a similar reading while the starter is cranking. I would need to get my neighbor over to crank the engine while I do that.
Not sure what to try next.
|
|
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
|
If it started and ran fine when you installed a jumper wire from the battery to the positive side of the distributor, as described in your original post, I don't think the starter is using all of the juice. That points to a wiring problem, corrosion, connections, bad wire, bad switch, bad grounds, etc.
The probes of the multimeter need to touch clean metal/wiring. If they don't then the readings can be erratic.
Have you checked the timing since installing the Pertronix? You can reinstall the jumper wire to do this. I wouldn't expect that swapping the module would cause the timing to be so far off that it is difficult to start, but it should be checked.
Other than the cold starting issue, did it run well before the Pertronix install?
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
Yes, it ran well before I started. Just sometimes it would take 10-15 or even 20 seconds to start from cold. Usually it would pop right off without giving it any gas when warm. So, no, I'm not trying to fix a car with a lot of issues with the Petronix system, just mostly wanted the reliability and not having to get at those points in the GM-ish distributor location. I will admit to sorta HOPING it would help the cold starting performance.
Since the wire to the battery test was successful, wouldn't that eliminate the ground side from the equation?
I'm am also wondering about the timing with the gas popping out of the carb. Does that sound retarded or too advanced? I'm guessing retarded..
|
|
By Noob - 11 Years Ago
|
I may not be tracking the discussion clearly, but it sounds vaguely familiar to a mystery I once had... not a problem of low voltage, but instead one of No voltage.
I powered the coil from the small "starter" (S) pole of the solenoid, and it fired up as expected. But when I let the key return to the run position, the starter of course stopped (as intended), but so did any ignition voltage to the coil. The coil needed to be powered by the "ignition" (I) pole on the solenoid for the motor to run after the starter feed cycled out.
This was on a 12 volt `62 Bird with a 390 ci and a Pertronix II conversion... it may have nothing to do with your situation, but I thought I share. I just don't think your issue is low voltage, but rather no voltage during run ignition.
Cheers... Brian
|
|
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
|
The successful "wire to the battery test" probably does rule out bad grounds which puts us back at a wiring problem somewhere between the battery and coil/distributor.
I'm not sure which way will cause popping out of the carb. You can mark the distributor's current position and adjust it a little in either direction to see if the situation improves. Too much advance and the engine will not turn over. But again, if it was fine with that jumper wire, this should be close enough for now.
|
|
By oldcarmark - 11 Years Ago
|
|
Meandean (9/19/2013)
Yes, it ran well before I started. Just sometimes it would take 10-15 or even 20 seconds to start from cold. Usually it would pop right off without giving it any gas when warm. So, no, I'm not trying to fix a car with a lot of issues with the Petronix system, just mostly wanted the reliability and not having to get at those points in the GM-ish distributor location. I will admit to sorta HOPING it would help the cold starting performance.
Since the wire to the battery test was successful, wouldn't that eliminate the ground side from the equation?
I'm am also wondering about the timing with the gas popping out of the carb. Does that sound retarded or too advanced? I'm guessing retarded..
If you are having trouble starting cold after it has sat overnite or longer I think you should be aware that the original "Teapot" carbs tend to lose the fuel in the floatbowl when sitting for any period of time like overnite.Cranking the engine for 15-30 seconds or sometimes longer is not unusual as it takes that amount of time to pump fuel up to the carb.Some people install an electric fuel pump to use as a primer pump for initial starts.Your concerns may not be ignition related at all.It is in my opinion a good idea to do the Pertronix swap as it cuts down on maintenance and you get consistent timing.You should however keep the points+condensor and related taken-out parts in a little bag in the car in case of Pertronix failure away from home.It does happen.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
Okay, Laying (lying?) in bed last night I thought about it. One thing I decided was that I should check the voltage of the auxiliary wire I ran to the ignition to ensure there is actually current coming through that wire.
I did that this morning and the voltage with the key in the "on" position was in the high 5's (5.9, 5.85, 5.75) etc. So there is definitely voltage going to the + side of the coil.
I did clean the distributor to coil wire as it noticed a bit of discoloration on it where it plugs into the top of the coil.
I wanted to start it to warm it a bit before I check the timing. It still only tries to start the instant you release the starter. Sure enough, it kicked, but then spewed a HUGE amount of gasoline out the top of the carb. Even got some on the windshield and top of the cowl. It sure has me spooked. Sure don't want a fire in my garage!
Haven't checked the timing yet. I see a paint mark on the pully where someone has marked it for timing, but I can't read any of the factory markings on the pully itself. Will have to find a way to read it, I guess.
|
|
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
|
|
In my book, a fire extinguisher is a must-have for any garage. It is one of those things that is far better to have and not need. Get one if you do not already have one.
|
|
By The Master Cylinder - 11 Years Ago
|
|
Noob (9/20/2013)
I powered the coil from the small "starter" (S) pole of the solenoid, and it fired up as expected. But when I let the key return to the run position, the starter of course stopped (as intended), but so did any ignition voltage to the coil. The coil needed to be powered by the "ignition" (I) pole on the solenoid for the motor to run after the starter feed cycled out.
Cheers... Brian
Don't want to stray from the subject at hand but a 6v solenoid does not have the "I" pole as it is only used in a 12v system to bypass the ballast resistor to provide full 12v to the coil for starting. Once the key is released there is no voltage coming from "I" pole and the power goes thru the ballast resistor to provide ~9v to the coil.
I don't even have a wire connected to the "I" post because I don't have a ballast resistor in my system.
Back to OP. Like others have suggested, check every connection. Sounds like your not getting a high enough voltage during cranking. The fact that you are not getting a constant voltage is a concern.
*** Whatever you do, DO NOT leave the Per I connected while checking your wires with the key on. YOU WILL BURN IT UP***
charliemccraney (9/20/2013)
In my book, a fire extinguisher is a must-have for any garage. It is one of those things that is far better to have and not need. Get one if you do not already have one.
TWO is better.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
I have the fire extinguisher at the ready. So far I've not needed it.
I did a bit of cleaning and with some steel wool I could see faint marks on the harmonic balancer. The paint mark was 6 marks in (going CCW from the first mark), so it makes sense that is 6 degrees advance, the factory setting.
I checked the timing - got the car started w/o huge gas spew and it showed at TDC or maybe even a bit more retarded than that. So for future reference if your car is spewing gas out of the carb during starting attempts its probably timing retarded.
So I loosened the bolt holding the distributor hold-down tab (whoever tightened if before on sure didn't want it to move) but I can't physically rotate the distributor. Am I missing something? I've only worked on 223 6 cylinders and small block Fords - is there something else holding it in place? If not, how can I best free it? I tried lightly tapping it with a channel lock but no luck there. Why oh why is that distributor crammed down in there and right next to the firewall unlike the 223 and small blocks? Woe is me, LOL!
During all this I notice the vacuum tube from the distributor to the carb is not actually being held in place at the carb. You can pull the tube right out of the brass fitting. I see they're available from MAC's, but I may try a flaring tool and see if I can get it to seat and hold.
I also notice that there is very little room left to rotate the distributor clockwise before the aforementioned tube contacts the accelerator linkage. Maybe 1/4 inch.
I called back to Pertronix about the low voltage, looking for an alternative source to grab 6 volts. He suggested the Voltage regulator. Ended up a dead end. One of the three shovel tabs (Top One) has 6+ volts whether the key is off or on. The other two don't seem to have much voltage at all, whether the key is off or on.
|
|
By The Master Cylinder - 11 Years Ago
|
Sometimes the distributor becomes 'frozen' in the block if it has not be moved in a while  . You might have to soak it with a penetrating oil. I use a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone or lacquer thinner. Soak and lightly tap. Be patient.
Meandean (9/20/2013)
I did a bit of cleaning and with some steel wool I could see faint marks on the harmonic balancer. The paint mark was 6 marks in (going CCW from the first mark), so it makes sense that is 6 degrees advance, the factory setting.
I'm a little confused here. Since the crank turns CW by your description the paint mark would be your TDC since it's CCW of the "first mark". In other words the advance mark should pass the pointer first.
|
|
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
|
The timing should not cause the gas to spew out. That is some other thing going on.
RE the distributor, That is what happens when they have not been moved in a long time. I don't know that it is a good way, but when I first got my truck, the distributor was stuck just like that. I used a pipe wrench to work it back and forth until it finally came out. This method will cause at least cosmetic damage and you could break it. Whatever you do, do not get tempted to hammer on the vacuum canister. It will snap right off. Been there, done that.
RE the accelerator linkage to vacuum canister clearance, when the distributor is loose, you can lift it out, turn it one tooth counterclockwise drop it back in then set the timing. You may not need to do that. 1/4" at the distributor changes the timing quite a bit.
Since it was running ok, maybe spray some penetrating fluid around the base of the distributor, solve the voltage problem and then come back to this. The same goes for the carb. The vacuum line will need to be addressed, but for now yo need to get the ignition working and the car functioning at least like it was. You are discovering that there actually may be a few things going on and if you change too much at once, it can complicate matters. Fixing that line may bring up other issues, so do one thing at a time.
|
|
By oldcarmark - 11 Years Ago
|
|
Meandean (9/20/2013)
I have the fire extinguisher at the ready. So far I've not needed it.
I did a bit of cleaning and with some steel wool I could see faint marks on the harmonic balancer. The paint mark was 6 marks in (going CCW from the first mark), so it makes sense that is 6 degrees advance, the factory setting.
I checked the timing - got the car started w/o huge gas spew and it showed at TDC or maybe even a bit more retarded than that. So for future reference if your car is spewing gas out of the carb during starting attempts its probably timing retarded.
So I loosened the bolt holding the distributor hold-down tab (whoever tightened if before on sure didn't want it to move) but I can't physically rotate the distributor. Am I missing something? I've only worked on 223 6 cylinders and small block Fords - is there something else holding it in place? If not, how can I best free it? I tried lightly tapping it with a channel lock but no luck there. Why oh why is that distributor crammed down in there and right next to the firewall unlike the 223 and small blocks? Whoa is me, LOL!
During all this I notice the vacuum tube from the distributor to the carb is not actually being held in place at the carb. You can pull the tube right out of the brass fitting. I see they're available from MAC's, but I may try a flaring tool and see if I can get it to seat and hold.
I also notice that there is very little room left to rotate the distributor clockwise before the aforementioned tube contacts the accelerator linkage. Maybe 1/4 inch.
I called back to Pertronix about the low voltage, looking for an alternative source to grab 6 volts. He suggested the Voltage regulator. Ended up a dead end. One of the three shovel tabs (Top One) has 6+ volts whether the key is off or on. The other two don't seem to have much voltage at all, whether the key is off or on.
AS far as the distributor being frozen-that's a very common problem especially if the timing has not been adjusted in decades.Try applying some penetrating oil around the base of the distributor.Apply several times and let it work.If you have a preferred brand use it.It will break loose.Just give it time.There are only a few timing marks up to about 10 degrees I believe.Because the engine tries to start when you release the key I am wondering if you have the wires connected to the correct terminals.You might want to double check against the instructions.Just a thought.If you have 6 volts or close to it from the parallel wire you ran from the ignition switch in the "run"(the 1st position after you release the key) position you should not need another source of power.That should suffice as a power source.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
The Master Cylinder (9/20/2013)
Sometimes the distributor becomes 'frozen' in the block if it has not be moved in a while . You might have to soak it with a penetrating oil. I use a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone or lacquer thinner. Soak and lightly tap. Be patient.
Meandean (9/20/2013)
I did a bit of cleaning and with some steel wool I could see faint marks on the harmonic balancer. The paint mark was 6 marks in (going CCW from the first mark), so it makes sense that is 6 degrees advance, the factory setting.I'm a little confused here. Since the crank turns CW by your description the paint mark would be your TDC since it's CCW of the "first mark". In other words the advance mark should pass the pointer first.
I guess there's clockwise from the front of the engine and clockwise from the back of the engine. From the front of the engine, the paint mark is 6 marks counterclockwise from the first visible mark. I just assumed (bad thing to do) that a person would mark the line you wanted see lined up with the pointer when you timed it, not the TDC. If you're right then it's timing is probably right on.
|
|
By The Master Cylinder - 11 Years Ago
|
Haha, Well I don't know 'bout you but I usually look at the engine from the front... Looking from the front, the engine spins CW. Describing your way, "the first visible mark" would be advanced from the painted line.
Don't know what the painted mark is in reference to. Maybe there is another mark even more CCW, making the painted mark advanced to it. But hey, I'm not there, can't see it.
Last thought, If this person that made the mark had an advancing timing light, he would mark TDC (0°) , advance the timing light to what he wanted (say 6°) and move the distributor until the "painted mark" lined up with the pointer.
I think I just gave myself a headache... Best of luck to ya.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
The Master Cylinder (9/20/2013)
Haha, Well I don't know 'bout you but I usually look at the engine from the front... Looking from the front, the engine spins CW. Describing your way, "the first visible mark" would be advanced from the painted line.
Don't know what the painted mark is in reference to. Maybe there is another mark even more CCW, making the painted mark advanced to it. But hey, I'm not there, can't see it.
Last thought, If this person that made the mark had an advancing timing light, he would mark TDC (0°) , advance the timing light to what he wanted (say 6°) and move the distributor until the "painted mark" lined up with the pointer.
I think I just gave myself a headache... Best of luck to ya.
Right. Thanks.
Obviously I thought the engine turned the other way. I could have simply bumped the starter and observed which way the mark moved. Dumb.
The good news is this means my timing is pretty much right on, but I will look to see if there are more marks below the painted one just to be sure. I've been trying to find a photo of a Y block pully that shows the marks but so far the interwebs have not produced. I actually thought I remembered seeing one this site, but can't find it.
So I will stop worrying about the stuck distributor for now and tackle that after the other stuff gets sorted out. I did give it a good squirt with penetrating oil FWIW.
Any ideas on the gas coming out the carb? It seems to me like when the engine kicks but doesn't start somehow the compressed air fuel mixture or unburned exhaust gases come out the intake instead of the exhaust.
Thanks ALL who have responded.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
I thought about it again last night laying in bed. It won't get enough juice to the electronic kit to start while cranking, so why not just run a lead from the starter side of the solenoid to the coil? The other lead seems to give enough voltage once it starts. I lashed the distributor back down after my go-round with the timing, and ran another stranded copper wire from the solenoid pole to the coil. That makes 4 connections on the coil + terminal (original red wire-I assume from ignition, red wire from the Pertronix, extra lead wire from the ignition previously run, and now the last new one from the solenoid.
Tried to start it and no difference. Only pops at the moment the starter is disengaging.
I'm stumped. How can I ever get 5-6 volts to the Pertronix while the starter is cranking; enough voltage to send a spark to the plugs?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
|
You have to trace all of the stock wiring from the battery to the ignition coil and make sure it is all in good shape. That is the only way to fix the problem correctly.
I would not run a wire from the starter side of the solenoid to the coil. If you do this, the starter may try to turn when the ignition is on and it will try to draw a lot of current through that little wire which means lots of smoke, possibly fire, and more difficult electrical repairs.
If I'm understanding this correctly, you still have wires installed that you have added and allowed the car to start previously, but now it does not. This suggests one of two things, everything else being equal. The battery needs to be charged or the Pertronix may be damaged due to the things you've tried and your lack of understanding about electricity. Don't misunderstand, I'm not being mean but simply being frank. Perhaps the best thing now is to reinstall the points to get it running again since we know they worked, address the vacuum line problem you have discovered, get the distributor loose, and check the overall condition of the distributor, replace or repair as necessary and when all of that seems to be good, get back to the Pertronix install. When everything else is working correctly, I don't think you will notice any difference with the Pertronix, anyway.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
|
charliemccraney (9/21/2013)
You have to trace all of the stock wiring from the battery to the ignition coil and make sure it is all in good shape. That is the only way to fix the problem correctly.
I would not run a wire from the starter side of the solenoid to the coil. If you do this, the starter may try to turn when the ignition is on and it will try to draw a lot of current through that little wire which means lots of smoke, possibly fire, and more difficult electrical repairs.
If I'm understanding this correctly, you still have wires installed that you have added and allowed the car to start previously, but now it does not. This suggests one of two things, everything else being equal. The battery needs to be charged or the Pertronix may be damaged due to the things you've tried and your lack of understanding about electricity. Don't misunderstand, I'm not being mean but simply being frank. Perhaps the best thing now is to reinstall the points to get it running again since we know they worked, address the vacuum line problem you have discovered, get the distributor loose, and check the overall condition of the distributor, replace or repair as necessary and when all of that seems to be good, get back to the Pertronix install. When everything else is working correctly, I don't think you will notice any difference with the Pertronix, anyway.
I removed the wire from the solenoid to the coil. It made no difference anyway.
There is no difference in the performance of the Pertronix from initial install to now.
At this point the only modification is the extra wire from the ignition to the coil.
It WILL start, I just have to stop the starter and at that instant there is enough juice to the Pertronix - and thus the spark plugs - to ignite. If I get lucky (about 1 in 8 tries) it will start and run. About 50% of the time it does nothing and the other 38% it pops/kicks and tries to start but does not; these are the ones that can sometimes result in the gas coming out the top of the carb.
It seems to run fine once it starts.
So, I'm just about to the point where I think I'll just put points and a condenser back it and forget about it.
I cleaned the terminals on the solenoid as a starting point. The battery cables look newish and very thick with lots of stranded copper like 6 Volt cars had/have.
I can start to trace some wiring but will need some guidance. There are two wires coming off the solenoid, a moderately thick yellow one from the battery side terminal and a red one coming off the single smaller post. Where do those terminate? I can check/bypass those as a first start.
I think I might also try the original coil first instead of the 0.6 Ohm High performance coil that was to be a performance enhancer, also purchased to go with the electronic ignition. Can't hurt.
|
|
By The Master Cylinder - 11 Years Ago
|
|
Meandean (9/21/2013)
[quote][b]
I can start to trace some wiring but will need some guidance. There are two wires coming off the solenoid, a moderately thick yellow one from the battery side terminal and a red one coming off the single smaller post. Where do those terminate? I can check/bypass those as a first start.
The smaller red one come from the ignition switch "S" post to 'activate' the solenoid. The larger yellow one goes to the headlight switch and ignition switch "B" post. This is the main power to the car.
|
|
By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
|
|
I just caught the comment about the .6 OHM performance coil........is it recommended for use with the Pertronix module you have? Normally I only expect to see them used with the later model controllers that can vary dwell. Earlier modules needed a 1.5 OHM coil to avoid injuring the grounding transistor with "over-current".
|
|
By slick56 - 11 Years Ago
|
|
Have you thought of using a (6v) relay to trigger the coil? Run a lead from the battery to one side of the relay, then a lead from the other side to the coil, and use the original coil wire as the trigger to energize the relay.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
GREENBIRD56 (9/23/2013)
I just caught the comment about the .6 OHM performance coil........is it recommended for use with the Pertronix module you have? Normally I only expect to see them used with the later model controllers that can vary dwell. Earlier modules needed a 1.5 OHM coil to avoid injuring the grounding transistor with "over-current".
Yes, when I talked to Pertronix that is the coil they recommend for my application. Thanks!
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
|
slick56 (9/23/2013)
Have you thought of using a (6v) relay to trigger the coil? Run a lead from the battery to one side of the relay, then a lead from the other side to the coil, and use the original coil wire as the trigger to energize the relay.
That sounds promising. Forgive my ignorance, but can you recommend a specific relay?
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
I didn't try the old coil yet. I got it installed but then wasn't 100% sure which way to wire it to the Pertronix and didn't want to risk blowing it out. If I do it, I'll call their tech and make sure it can handle a backwards hookup. I found how to test polarity of the coil using a voltmeter across a spark plug connector and the intake manifold to determine correct polarity. I would like to run that test if I do hook up the old coil. It has the batt and dist markings on the coil and since the car was converted to negative ground it PROBABLY needs to be hooked up backwards from factory. But I still want to check - and that requires cranking the engine with the coil installed, which means current to the Pertronix, and like I said, I need to check with them before I do that...
I did notice while disconnecting the coil that the red wire coming off the bundle along the firewall was pretty flimsy at the point it goes into the connector for the coil. I hate, hate, hate messing with factory anything since it's been there for 57 years. But I did. I cut the end off - there really wasn't much holding it. Stripped back the wire carefully to retain all the copper strands and crimped a new connector on.
Tried it again and no difference. Where does that wire terminate? I'm guessing the ignition switch.
I will also remove and clean the engine to firewall ground. Can't hurt, I suppose.
|
|
By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
|
I can't tell you the equivalent 6v item but I usually rig my systems to use a "Bosch" 12v lighting relay. Power to its coil then switches an input power source to two outputs capable of heavy amperage (like off-road lights). The relay is "normally open" on both output legs. I send one to the controller - and one to the coil - powered off the battery post of the starter solenoid and triggering off the ignition switch. These relays are available with a fixed base (to be hard wired) and a removable relay that can be pulled to disable the circuitry.
GM vehicles that use a variable dwell controller and a low OHM coil usually have a heavy number 10 gauge wire to the coil built into the factory wiring. The use of something smaller - or the original 50's Ford car wiring, just can't be recommended for that sort of a heat load. The low OHM coils offer a performance boost - but they need the proper feed wiring to function well - and safely.
|
|
By slick56 - 11 Years Ago
|
That sounds promising. Forgive my ignorance, but can you recommend a specific relay?[/quote]
Not a specific one, but perhaps a generic horn or starter relay from an auto parts store?
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
|
slick56 (9/23/2013)
That sounds promising. Forgive my ignorance, but can you recommend a specific relay?
Not a specific one, but perhaps a generic horn or starter relay from an auto parts store?[/quote]
I can get another 6V unit (horn) - one that fits the 55. That should work
|
|
By Lord Gaga - 11 Years Ago
|
|
I have two friends who have tried those 6V Neg. ground Pertronics units on their cars......neither one would start the engine reliably. They took them out and put the points back in, no problems. There's nothing wrong with points system. Just set the gap correctly and change 'em once in a while! (You know that if the spark is too weak to start an engine, the spark is just plain too weak all the time.) I hate to tell you that those 6V Pertronics units are just plain JUNK.
|
|
By slick56 - 11 Years Ago
|
I have received this from the Sales Manager at PerTronix...
We have very specific information regarding 6-volt applications. Typically we find that most people don't use the proper coil and or do not remove the ballast resistor (sometime both). A coil with too much internal resistance or a ballast resistor will limit the amount of energy to the point where the Ignitor will not work. For instance, a 12-volt 8-cylinder system typically uses a 1.5-ohm coil. A 6-volt system uses a 0.6-ohm coil. Half the energy requires half (or less) the resistance. This allows more energy to reach the Ignitor module therefore it works. Here is the chart concerning this:
Hope this helps...
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
slick56 (10/1/2013)
I have received this from the Sales Manager at PerTronix... We have very specific information regarding 6-volt applications. Typically we find that most people don't use the proper coil and or do not remove the ballast resistor (sometime both). A coil with too much internal resistance or a ballast resistor will limit the amount of energy to the point where the Ignitor will not work. For instance, a 12-volt 8-cylinder system typically uses a 1.5-ohm coil. A 6-volt system uses a 0.6-ohm coil. Half the energy requires half (or less) the resistance. This allows more energy to reach the Ignitor module therefore it works. Here is the chart concerning this:
Hope this helps...
I have a 6 volt system so it has NO ballast resister. I bought the 0.6 Ohm ignitor coil recommended by Pertronix. No dice.
|
|
By slick56 - 11 Years Ago
|
Did you end up trying the relay?
A number of members of the Triumph Trophy forum have done the mod to their 'bikes to get more voltage to the coils.
|
|
By Meandean - 11 Years Ago
|
|
slick56 (10/1/2013)
Did you end up trying the relay?
A number of members of the Triumph Trophy forum have done the mod to their 'bikes to get more voltage to the coils.
No, I wasn't sure how to wire it up or what relay to use. Like I said, I'm not too confident on electrical items. Decided to go back to points.
Thanks for the advise, none-the-less!
|
|
By The Master Cylinder - 11 Years Ago
|
|
slick56 (10/1/2013)
Did you end up trying the relay?
A number of members of the Triumph Trophy forum have done the mod to their 'bikes to get more voltage to the coils.
Slick, I like the idea of using a relay to provide more power (and to reduce the "flow" thru the switch). I have a relay on my electric fan, fuel pump, lights and power windows.
I think that would have been an excellent solution to Meandean's problem.
|