272 starting issues (ignition?)


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By msauls - 11 Years Ago

Hello- First post here, but I’ve been reading and learning for the last 6mo or so. I’m hoping I can get some assistance and some help problem solving.

I am having some difficulty starting my 272 after beingdown for some upgrades. I know itsdifficult to diagnose through a keyboard and more-so without all the info, soI’ll try my best to explain and list everything.


1958 F-100 V8-272(basically all original and all stock)

3-spd column shift - all original (points) ignition - Should be thestock 2bbl carb, etc


I drove it around a bit after acquiring it and seeing itsuffered from the ‘drunken monkey’ syndrome, I put it up in the garage for somenecessary upgrades. (New tires, brakes, suspension,…)

While I was at it I changed the coil, points, condenser,plugs and wires, fluids, battery…all the standard tune-up stuff.


By the time came to start her back up, it has beensitting for approx 2-1/2 months. It would not start.

-It kept turning over strong and would pop/fire out ofthe carb occasionally, then end with an “eerrrrrrrrr” sound. Tried thisover and over again but would never catch to start.

-After double checking the wire sequence, etc I wonderedit I had mal-adjusted the points. So ina quick fit I threw in a pertronix we had laying around the shop (new andcorrect model#). It just did the samething…over and over.

-Thought then that it might be the timing, so I loosenedthe distributor and twisted it left, right in various increments …it either didthe same or worse. THEN, while still attempting it …I saw the battery arc fromthe terminal to the firewall and all went dead. Dead as a doornail.


This is where I stand now. Regarding the scary ending I’m guessing Ididn’t have a good ground somehow (perhaps from loosening the distributor??)

I am quite certain that would have fried the Pertronixmodule and probably why it is super dead right now. I have purchased a new Pertronix and new coiland will attempt this again this week.


Number one, I don’t want to fry another Pertronix….number two, theengine still wasn’t starting….and number three, what about my ground(why thearc)?

Can anyone give me advice to where to go from here?

Many thanks-
By msauls - 11 Years Ago
!! on thing - Before "the Arc" and everything being dead...I pulled a plug to see what the spark looked like. It was very weak.We also tried starting fluid at one point. *pop* *flame*
By PWH42 - 11 Years Ago
Check and make sure all the grounds are good.Engine to body/frame and battery cable to engine.
By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
Don't install the Pertronix until you solve the issue. It sounds like the old ignition components worked and you changed them as a preventative measure. Put them back in and go from there.
By Rig - 11 Years Ago
One of the first things that comes to mind is that the firing sequence might be off.

15846372, with cylinder #1 being the front on the passenger side. Crank rotation viewed from the front is clockwise.

If you have a spark, the coil is probably ok.

If you are getting some backfiring and popping, you have some spark.

I agree you should put the old stuff back in, get it started, and then change one thing at a time. It's a good idea to always change only one component at a time and then check that it still fires and runs well.
By msauls - 11 Years Ago
Thanks PWH42, Charlie and Rig-

Tonight I will run down all wiring associated with the ig sys...ensure all grounds are solid.

Rig, I initially thought the same thing about the firing order. I checked it twice, have it written underside of the hood but will do so again.

I guess I will end up placing the points (new) and old coil back in....like Charlie said, it worked before.

I think while my intentions were good with new points and everything, It ended up being my downfall right now because there are too many variables that have changed. I'll go back to eliminate some of that with the old parts and start from there.
Update tomorrow hopefully-

Thanks!
By Daniel Jessup - 11 Years Ago
It should at least get started... you have spark and you have compression right? all you need is that air/fuel mix and you have the 3 things to get it running.

my vote in all this --- that firing order on the distributor cap is counter clockwise - double check that first. Then bring number one cylinder to TDC and see where your rotor is at. Set your distributor to fire right on Number One cylinder, and then go from there.

The reason I say the CCW rotation is your "pop and flame" comment...

Dunno what to tell you about the arc

KIT
By msauls - 11 Years Ago
Ok, update.
Verified grounds, replaced one wire that may have or would cause an issue.

Put the old points, cond and rotor in... Gapped 'Em. Rotated dist to a good guess of where it was.

Checked the firing order. Correct on plugs and cap, rotated CW from standing in front.

Attempted starting again, got puffs and flame out of carb again. Looked like moby dick spitting up fuel. No start and don't think it was close.
Read the spark from another plug with alligator clip ground, and it was orange. Not strong but looked like it might be enough?

Kit, thanks for the input. Is there a way for me to verify TDC while everything is buttoned up?
By msauls - 11 Years Ago
Heck! Yes! Gotter running, you guys are great!

The one thing I didn't place back was the old dist cap.
While trying to find TDC like Kit said and re reading Rig saying something similar... My old cap I had written the numbers on. I'm thinking I had it the wrong direction with the new cap. It now goes clockwise (I think!? All confused now)
Either way thank all of you so much. I'll post some pics in the morning and keep updating with the upgrades. Can sleep sound tonight!
Night!
By aussiebill - 11 Years Ago
msauls (4/25/2013)
Ok, update.
Verified grounds, replaced one wire that may have or would cause an issue.

Put the old points, cond and rotor in... Gapped 'Em. Rotated dist to a good guess of where it was.

Checked the firing order. Correct on plugs and cap, rotated CW from standing in front.

Attempted starting again, got puffs and flame out of carb again. Looked like moby dick spitting up fuel. No start and don't think it was close.
Read the spark from another plug with alligator clip ground, and it was orange. Not strong but looked like it might be enough?

Kit, thanks for the input. Is there a way for me to verify TDC while everything is buttoned up?


Unless you,ve got a typo? you say rotation is CW? Distributor rotation as mentioned is CCW or anti clockwise. Does sound like fireing order is out? Recheck and have someone spin engine over while you slowly rotate distributor to where the engine is happy. good luck.
By Daniel Jessup - 11 Years Ago
Glad to hear it... sound like you had the wires on the distributor cap in a CLOCKWISE rotation for the firing order. Looks like you solved it yourself and put the wires back on the cap the opposite rotation which would be correct - COUNTER CLOCKWISE.

Get her warmed up and set the timing now - show us those photos when you get a chance.

By the way, I am not KIT, but I was trying to tell you to "Keep In Touch" Tongue

You will find quite a few friendly Y blockers on this site, and a whole heap of guys more knowledgeable than me.
By msauls - 11 Years Ago
Yep, all along I was concentrating so much on firing ORDER and plug ORDER that the cap being the wrong rotation slipped by me everytime I "checked" it.15486372 going Counter-Clockwise was the ticket. ...just like you guys suggested.



Before breaking thru, frustration setting in....




This old Cap "MADE IN USA" that I had wrote the numbers on months ago woke me up to what y'all were saying.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bnD5lPn4CFk/UXiX0PnrVJI/AAAAAAAAKbU/GKtSb5blXV4/w340-h453/20130424_203630.jpg



Running well! Elation!
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wNR6dkPKVXA/UXiYI83guOI/AAAAAAAAKcQ/dOyjXOb03_4/w340-h453/20130424_204557.jpg



Just for info- Rotating the engine to find TDC, like Daniel/KIT suggested....I found this mark. To the right of it there are the tick marks/timing marks. Is this mark TDC ?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DZIwhtMgLBw/UXiXqC1nzMI/AAAAAAAAKaw/moj087G0uHs/w340-h453/20130424_202602.jpg



Again, I cant thank y'all enough for your help. I'm away for the weekend so hopefully I can get back in the garage next week. I'm going to keep the points and current ignition on for a little while. Next up, I'll be asking loads of "timing" questions, so run for the hills.
-M
By msauls - 11 Years Ago
Daniel Jessup (4/25/2013)

By the way, I am not KIT, but I was trying to tell you to "Keep In Touch" Tongue

You will find quite a few friendly Y blockers on this site, and a whole heap of guys more knowledgeable than me.


Ha, so sorry Daniel! KIT...got it, now. I guess I'm getting old!
Thanks so very much!
By MoonShadow - 11 Years Ago
Did you have the damper off? If that mark is where it runs best then the damper has probably slipped. That would mean that the rubber is giving up. You need to find another or send yours to be rebuilt. There is a company called Damper Doctor that does them. Chuck
By Daniel Jessup - 11 Years Ago
Nice truck! Talk about being "knee deep" into it... that picture is worth a thousand words.

You are right on the timing mark for the crankshaft dampener. What Chuck is trying to say is if that photo you took is where you have the timing set with your light and the engine is running its strongest, then he is right, that dampener has slipped, but I see that socket and breaker bar in the photo so I am sure that you were bringing it up to TDC for #1 cylinder. Y Blocks generally like a lot of advance. The last few I have set the timing on I put them on somewhere between 10 and 12 degrees advance. Say, you may want to rough up the area on the dampener where those marks are at and use some paint to bring out those marks so that you can see them a little better. Ford never cut the marks deep into the outer ring... over the years they are hard to see.

By the way, if you brought it up to TDC and both those valves were closed and #1 was on the compression stroke then your dampener has not slipped!

check this out...

http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/danaxjessup/paxton/?action=view&current=100_4309-1.mp4
By pegleg - 11 Years Ago
You may have more than one problem if the spark is weak as you say. BUT, re-read what Aussie Bill said and re-wire the cap counter clockwise. Rotate the motor to TDC pull the right hand valve cover and insure both valves on #1 are loose. If not, rotate the engine one turn and check again. Now trace the plug wire from the #1 cylinder to the cap, pull the cap off and make certain the end of the rotor aligns with that post on the Dist cap. Put it back together and re-wire the cap in a counter clockwise direction. I'd also make sure you have fuel. This ought to be enough to get it running.

Sorry to late on this, only got to the end of page one before I responded. At least you got it running, now you can do the Pertronix.