Over many miles, your engine wears, and starts hesitating.  It no longer gives that instant response that it did when it was new; something every car owner makes gas pedal adjustments for at every green light.  Many of today's 292's are still running on original parts, but a 'major' overhaul is inevitable.

  Today, link-type chain sets are still readily available everywhere.  In the racing world, roller chains reign supreme.  Roller sets are preferred over gear sets, too.  Link chains are still available at a third the price of a roller set, but are seldom used because roller sets last so much longer.

Here is discussion from the "Accelerator Pump Problem" link:

Ted, I agree that link chains stretch at a slower rate, but they also stretch MUCH farther than a roller set.  I have a well-worn set from my 292.  Here's a picture of the original cam sprocket:

The chain was VERY sloppy, but what does the sprocket 'witness marks' tell?
*  First, the finger-grooves are on the leading AND lagging sides of each tooth.  If cam drag (valve train, oil pup and distributor gear train), were in one direction only, the wear pattern would be heavy on one side and light on the other.  These are about equal.
*  Crud at the bottom shows, the chain fingers stopped about half way down.

Here's a crank sprocket:

Again, same story.  This is the DRIVING GEAR, but it has wear on both sides, but only half way down each tooth.  I can tell the direction of rotation.  I can also see the wear from when the cam was actually driving the crank (when the driver got off the gas from high revs).

Double roller chain sets don't wear like this.  They don't have fingers that fold up.  Instead, they use hardened steel pins with bearing-sleeves that reduce friction by turning freely.  A roller chain incorporates much more precision but costs three times more than a link chain.  In this case, you get what you pay for.

Our 292's aren't a hot item any more, so fewer manufacturers make aftermarket parts for the Y.  The double roller chain is out there, but much harder to find than link chains.

This one is going in my Y-Block next week.

Dave

You can see leading-edge sprocket wear  on both sprockets, from the pictures.  Coupled with chain stretch, your cam will lag its original timing at least six degrees before jumping a tooth or coming off. 

Timing slop shows when you use your timing light.  The damper pulley mark tends to jump around, which is exactly what happens when you're driving down the road.  When starting from a light, you always get that gas pedal lag because the cam is so far retarded.

That 'tight engine' feel always comes back as soon as you change your timing chain.

Some restorers are nearly militant about keeping everything 'bone stock.'  That's not me, I like electric WS wipers, disk brakes, and I'd never dream of loading up my family in the '59 and running the freeway with bias-ply tires and no seatbelts.

I am grateful for this forum, where restorers freely help other restorers in their passion.  You guys have a treasure-trove of experience, resources, and talent, and I am very pleased to be welcomed here.

HoLun, I simply called Tee-Bird Products in Pennsylvania (800) 423-3723, and spoke with Salesman, Ellis.  He hooked me up with this American-made timing chain set, out of Elgin Illinois:

I probably paid too much, I don't know, but I think Tee-Bird is in the ballpark.
My engine machine shop owner had a Millings catalog listing for this timing chain number, but NOT the sprockets (very strange).  Millings calls it "heavy duty."  We'll see.

Hoosier, this is America!  We're all free to exercise our personal preferences.  If you like link chains, everyone carries them at a very reasonable price.  Enjoy.

Ted, you have a wealth of background and knowledge regarding timing chains.  Thank You for sharing your experiences, testing and using both chain types.  I believe the more info we all get, the better we can make educated choices.  I too, remember the days when cam sprockets were 'nylon.'  After years of heat and stress, the polymers would bake out, they broke apart, and pistons tried closing valves.  GM was the first, Ford followed.  It wasn't pretty.  If that wasn't ugly enough, Ford used rubber timing belts, starting with Pinto in '71, and Escort in '81.  I owned both.

Rick, I agree.  This was an 'unknown' engine I bought from a man parting out his '59 Galaxie in the Boston area.  He drove the car into his shop, put it up on a hoist, and after noticing extensive frame rot, decided to part the car out.  I bought the engine, Cruise-o-Matic, steering column, brake pedal support, and driveshaft.  He threw in a T&C radio and all the linkage.  After engine teardown, the lower end looked beautiful, but I bored the cylinders .060"

My stock 1959 292 was oil-starved in two areas, rocker arm shafts (and all the rocker arms), and timing chain.  Those little tubes did a good job of diverting oil away from the rocker arms and down the holes.  Consequently, dirt and varnish plugged all the rocker arm holes because oil pressure was at atomspheric (zero).  This was a stock 292 Cleveland Engine.  McTim's video convinced me to plug those tube holes with NO relief holes, which forces oil through all the rocker arms.  The old timing chain sprocket pictures shown above, speak for themselves.

But this is a new day.  Romeo and Windsor modular engines have always used roller chains; 4-valve engines use four, two long and two short.  For sixteen years I beat the crap out of my 351W, fitted with a roller chain (on Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, driving daily to Ford Rouge, Dearborn).  Wear: negligible.  Certainly not nearly as bad as every link chain I ever owned, regardless of brand.

Certainly, today's time proven technology with better materials are far superior to the resources they had back in the '50's.  Ford's accomplishments were amazing, considering what they had to work with.

Dave Dare
Ford Motor Co., Dearborn

If your main bearing caps and saddles have not been altered by align-boring, a stock chain set should work just fine.  I don't know why your new chain should be sloppy.  New chains I installed were 'a fight' to get the cam sprocket on the camshaft (then you have that confounded cam key or bushing to contend with).
Perhaps you got ahold of a non-stock, or wrong chain set.  Again, new timing sets are tight.

For an align-bored block, it wouldn't take much for the factory to oversize the sprockets to correct for a sloppy chain.

Why hasn't someone made a timing belt for Y-blocks .You can get them for SBF and that other brand ,so why not for Y-Blocks ??????????? I don't see a big difference .

Lon

Thanks for reminding me about the Nitrided gears .Had a slight fitment problem with the Vicky .From memory it was .003 .I tried to phone my mate Scott Sterling  today to see if they are still being made ,will try again tomorrow .

Lon

speedpro56 (4/6/2009)

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My rollmaster chains are oiled this way. Place the cam sprocket in place, there's an oil galley between the crank and cam. On the oil galley mark the spot with a magic marker put a dot where the  cam sprocket teeth are. That's where you drill an approx .030 hole for oil to spray onto the sprocket teeth to oil the chain. I did away with the overflow tubes too pressurized the rockers and have no more galled shafts. I also use a restricter in place to restrict the oil to the rockers.

You are not alone, this is what I've been doing to get oil to the timing set after pressurizing the rockershafts. I drill the hole behind the cam thrust plate and cut a small trench downward so the oil runs down to the spade and onto the crank gear though, instead of spraying it on.

mctim64 (4/6/2009)

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You are not alone,... I drill the hole behind the cam thrust plate and cut a small trench downward so the oil runs down to the spade and onto the crank gear though, instead of spraying it on.

Amazing ways, all of them.  Tim McMaster, do you have a picture?
Ted showed a sheet metal detail I don't have on my '59 292.  After studying the oiling system, it would be a miracle if that little trough worked without your pressurized oil supply hole.
I look at my block's drain holes for witness marks, clean paths where oil flowed.  I don't really see much hope with the stock system:

This engine is sitting on a pallet (that's how it came off the truck).  It is filthy, but shows how bad the oil system had been over its life.  If the block tips down in the back, NO oil will ever get to the chain, which is what happened.

I understand in the old days, extermal oiling kits were sold for Y-Blocks with plumbing running all over this engine from the oil pump.  They drilled holes in the rocker covers for oil tubes.  Hey, whatever it takes...

I don't know the history of this engine, in fact I only bought it because it was attached to a Cruise-o-Matic.  (My wife asked me to turn our '59 Galaxie into an automatic for her.) Bought the whole setup from a guy in Mass., and this is what I got.

Without question, it's the dirtiest engine I ever worked.  You are right, PF.  The crud wasn't tar-like, it was baked-on dirt.  Even the crankshaft balance holes were HEAVILLY packed with dirt.  Took me a long time to clean everything properly.

I am amazed with the transformation of this engine.  The block is bored and honed to 3.800" (which is +.060"), but the machine shop 'head' man was ill today.  The block is better than new, because it's machined and seasoned.

When it goes back together, I will install positive crankcase ventilation.  Right now, I have questions for Ted Eaton regarding my Fel Pro neoprene rear main seal.  Loved your balance articles, Ted.  I was looking for the part about shaving the rod-tops to compensate for new larger pistons.   I love McTim's method of oiling the timing chain by drilling a hole in an oil galley (I'd love to see a pic of that).  Tim's video convinced me, so I pressurized the rocker shafts.  I would also like to use the 'oversized' 180* thermostat.  This engine will be oiled using Rotella-T 15W-40.

I'll post a picture later today. 

I had the pistons (and rings) in my hand yesterday.  They are marked "+.060" on the Sealed Power pistons (and +.060" on the Hastings moly rings).  I may have misread, "3.800" on the pistons box.  You're right, that doesn't add up.  The machinist that bored the block said the only place he could find piston-to-bore spec's was in an old Edsel book he had from the '60's.  He maintained .002" clearance, and said the piston set sizes were all the same (thank God).  Thanks, John (for bringing that to my attention).  I will go back today and re-check, along with my heads which should be done today.  - Dave

Ted Eaton gave me the straight answer, saying Best makes a neoprene seal for my stock 292 (with a rope).  I ordered the Best seal.  I should have ordered the Best full gasket set.  Cost me an extra $18 to learn that Best offers a much cheaper price.  Fel Pro was a lot more.

Thanks again John, for noticing the difference in piston sizes.

Also, here are the pics of the oil hole I drill in the front to lube the chain. I would have had it sooner but all the engines I have out in the garage are closed up and I hadn't taken any picture of this mod before.

We have got to find a way to get all of this good stuff in an accessible file. I was just looking for the tip about drilling and tapping the back of the block for the "direct insert" PCV and couldn't for the life of me remember enough to find the right thread. But it is the best way to do that particular operation I've seen .......really need a good way to clue in the new guys without a constant re-hash. 

Steve,

that one was Dutchys idea, and a good one, I've now done that to my own block.  

mctim64 (4/10/2009)

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Steve, that one was Dutchys idea, and a good one, I've now done that to my own block.  

Steve, Thank You sooo much for the distributor upgrade doc's.  I'm chasing parts and definately going with the Duraspark system.

Hey guys, does the PM thing work?  I PM'ed Dutchy, asking for his PVC mod a couple days ago, but I don't see where it went through!? 

Tim I love the positive oiling for your chain with the sheetmetal deflector.  I will definately do that with mine.  Do you think it might work as well, grinding the 'trench' in the cam keeper plate instead of the block?

So, what is the rear block PVC mod?  Can you show or describe it?  Thanks again, guys.  Happy Easter.

Dave

Steve,

What threaded pcv valve do you use?

Yes, I do think that would work just as well. 

Thanks for starting the new thread.  We were way off topic on the carb thread.

You told pegleg that you answered my question.  Where is the answer to my kinetic energy question?

Re: your pictures of the sprockets with wear on leading and trailing faces of the teeth.  Wouldn't stretched chain links cause the pitch of the chain to be different from the pitch of the gears and make them wear both faces of the teeth?

I feel no need to continue this discussion, we both have our opinions.  I will use the link chains in my engines, you use the rollers in yours, and we can both be happy.

Incidentally, 3.800 is .050 over, not .060.  There is a Dave Dare that posts on the model T site.  Is that you?

If he matched the pistons to the bores, we don't really care what the numbers are.  3.800 is standard 312 bore size, and the pistons are completely compatatable with the 292 block, crank, and rods.  It's not an uncommon practice.  Even today quite a few people bore their 292 blocks to 3.830 (.030 oversize 312), me included.  Works fine.

The Rollmaster true roller timing sets for a Y were available in shorter sets to compensate for block differences either from the factory or when align honing or boring the mains.  On the Y engines, it’s not uncommon to use a timing set that’s 0.008” shorter than standard to tighten up the ‘slop’ in the chain.  And I'm not aware of any fresh stocks of Rollmaster timing sets out there right now.  You could potentially have the same problem with the truck timing set in regards to slop depending upon exactly where the cam and crankshaft reside in relation to each other.

At 500 rpms, the distributor is only running 250 rpms which may not have your weights in a stable or uniform area of operation.  You might check that the distributor springs are both snug to insure that no low rpm ‘slop’ within the distributor is coming into play.  Also check that the weights work smoothly on their roll pins as they are prone to wear and can end up binding or have a ‘kink’ in their movement in the off idle position.

Dave.  Thanks for making a new topic out of this.  This will definitely makes searches on the topic much easier down the road.

I’m not out to prove one type of chain is better than the other but simply give another point of view regarding the link versus roller timing chain comparison.  Everyone bear with me on this one as I feel the early morning mental juices starting to flow but could very well end up being random thoughts.

But first a little background on timing chain oiling for the Y as there are a couple of key points here to consider.  Early in ’56, Ford simply did away with the oil trough on the front of the block above the lower timing gear which then promoted an increase in timing gear wear as a result of the reduction in lubrication supplied at this point.  Not enough wear that it will be a warranty problem but enough that it will be evident over the long haul when comparing the two oiling approaches side by side in controlled conditions.  The rocker shaft overflow tube on the right hand or passenger side of the engine is where a majority of the timing area oiling was originally designed to be derived from and the lifter valley within block is also cast with a channel or trough in which to promote this.  Pressurizing the rocker shafts also takes away oil from the timing chain area and insteads diverts a majority of the oil that would have normally gone to the front of the engine to the rear instead.  The 3° slant of the engine simply compounds the issue of oil getting to the timing chain area when the rocker arm overflow tubes are either blocked or eliminated.

Getting back to the main topic, on a racing or hot street engine a roller timing chain is much more desirable for a number of reasons.  Reduced drag is at the top of the list and especially when a ‘true’ roller timing chain is used.  But the real advantage to a roller chain is the increase in elasticity that’s available with the roller chain design.  Elasticity is where the chain stretches a given amount at the higher rpms but that elongation comes back when the rpms are also brought back.  Picture the chain acting like a rubber band.  This elasticity can be seen with a timing light where after total timing is achieved, the ignition timing actually starts to back up (retard) as the rpms continue to climb.  Where the ignition timing is driven off of a crank trigger, this essentially becomes apparent from idle to whatever rpm the engine is taken up to.  On a distributor with a full curve, this is seen only after full igntion advance is achieved.  The higher the valve spring pressure, the more predominant chain elasticity becomes.

And of course there are two major types of roller chains with one being a true roller and the other being a pseudo roller or ‘wanna be’ for lack of a better description.  The truck roller set for a Y is in the pseudo roller chain category and these are known to wear the sprockets at an alarming rate when not being oiled correctly.  I’ve seen the lower gears when used with these chains with extremely pointed teeth due to the wear after an extended number of miles so these are not impervious to wear either.  It’s just more difficult to see this wear without looking for it as when looking for teeth marks in a gear that’s used a link belt type of chain.  The other problem with the pseudo chains is that the sheaves on the pins can get peeled off if hitting a crank or cam gear tooth just right after a nominal amount of wear has already taken place.  If you’ll look at the sheaves on each pin on a pseudo roller chain, there is a groove where the sheaves clamp around the pins themselves.  It’s these grooves that will get caught on the teeth and allow the sheave to be peeled off of the chain.  But this is something I commonly see with high valve spring pressures and not on the run of the mill daily drivers.  A true roller timing set has machined rollers around each pin which are much larger in diameter than the rollers on a pseudo roller chain and besides being more robust in design, also exhibit less turning friction than that of a pseudo chain.

Now let’s switch gears and go back to a link chain.  This is where testing and having some real data comparisons come into play.  In this instance, I’ll use a 428 Ford Super Stocker with a roller camshaft that was used as the basis for testing.  The link chain while used in conjunction with the older nylon toothed style of cam gear actually made more horsepower than with a true roller timing chain setup used in this test.  Extreme care was taken to insure that the camshaft was installed or degreed in exactly the same in both instances.  In this particular test, the improved ignition timing stability obtained with the link chain used along with the nylon toothed gear was determined to be a major factor for the improvement in that spark scatter in the ignition was reduced.  This more than compensated for any perceived benefit of the camshaft retarding at the higher rpms due to the increased elasticity of the roller chain versus that of the link belt chain.  Simplified, there was less ignition timing retard at the upper rpm levels with the link chain than with the roller chain which was the measure at the time for the chain elasticity.  The number of degrees could be translated mathmatically back into a valid stretch value.

As I said before, this is just another point of view but much of it is based on prior testing and numerous engine teardowns in controlled or known environments.  But if it’s any consolation, I’ll use ‘true’ roller chains when given the option over a link type simply due to the reduction in friction or overall drag of the timing set.  There is a proven benefit to the elasticity aspect of the roller chains in an engine that runs in a wide range of rpms such as an engine being used in a performance street or road race application.  On an engine operating in a vary narrow rpm operating range, then a gear drive proves to be more beneficial over a chain.

The passenger side rocker overflow tube does direct the oil to an engineered path in the block to the timing chain area.  When examining the front area of the lifter valley in a Y block, you’ll see a designed and cast in path or channel where the oil from this particular overflow tube gets redirected to the timing chain area.

The aforementioned oil trough bolted on the front of the block does a good job of directing the oil to the lower timing gear sprocket and chain which then gets carried back up to the cam gear.  This trough was eliminated in 1956 but I’ve built a jig that allows these to be put back on the later model engines in the correct factory specified position.  Here’s a couple of pics of the oil trough for those that have never seen one.

Not as simple as it looks and involves some initial investment to make it happen.  If it’s not being driven from a passion standpoint, then in many instances the payback is not justifiable.  These belts are designed to run dry and not exposed to oil.  This simply takes some special considerations to design a system for the Y that allows it to sit on the outside of the engine.  And a water pump still needs to be bolted up to it.  Doable but it’s one of those items that’s not justified in a majority of applications.  It would likely need to look like this one for a small block Ford when it’s all said and done.

Tim.  Thanks for sharing the pics of the oil hole behind the thrust plate.  Another great alternative and adds to the list of options for oil mods.  I agree with Tim in that the directing oil channel can go either in the block or in the rear of the thrust plate and be equally effective.