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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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Hello,
I have a 1964 f100 with a 292/3 speed. I've had it for a few years and it's usually been pretty reliable, I drove it a lot. Last summer it started dying on me and wouldn't restart. After a few tows home and some tinkering it hasn't started since last October. Spark is orange. Cold compression numbers are between 90 and 140, most are around 120. It cranks strong, but it doesn't even try to start.
I have:
Rebuilt the autolite 2100
New fuel pump/lines/filter: the carb shoots fuel into the venturi
New spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor and I have tried two different Accel coils and it has a new points eliminator.
I have checked ignition timing.
I'm at my wits end here and have lost motivation to work on it in defeat. Thanks in advance for any ideas
Dan
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Spark and Fuel should get some kind of Reaction. Have U tried pouring a little Gas from another Source down the Carb? Maybe its water in the Gas from a bad Batch of Fuel?
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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Rebuilt the autolite 2100
New fuel pump/lines/filter: the carb shoots fuel into the venturi
New spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor and I have tried two different Accel coils and it has a new points eliminator.
I have checked ignition timing.
I assume you have installed an ACCEL kit? When was this done?
1) Confirm TDC
2) Recheck IGN wires order
3) Confirm VOLT from IGN SW and/or STARTER RELAY
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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If the gas is from last October, it needs to be drained and fresh gas used.
Compression is good. If the gas is good, then the carb is at least working well enough for the engine to fire. An orange spark indicates a problem. It should be blue. Most people either don't read instructions or don't understand the instructions for points eliminator kits. Make sure it is wired correctly.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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Most people either don't read instructions or don't understand the instructions for points eliminator kits. Make sure it is wired correctly.
How True ...
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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mac (10/13/2019)
Hello, I have a 1964 f100 with a 292/3 speed. I've had it for a few years and it's usually been pretty reliable, I drove it a lot. Last summer it started dying on me and wouldn't restart. After a few tows home and some tinkering it hasn't started since last October. Spark is orange. Cold compression numbers are between 90 and 140, most are around 120. It cranks strong, but it doesn't even try to start. I have: Rebuilt the autolite 2100 New fuel pump/lines/filter: the carb shoots fuel into the venturi New spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor and I have tried two different Accel coils and it has a new points eliminator. I have checked ignition timing. I'm at my wits end here and have lost motivation to work on it in defeat. Thanks in advance for any ideas Dan
Yellow or Orange Spark is a Weak Spark. Should be a sharp Blue Color to indicate a good Spark.. Are You sure the Accel is wired correctly?
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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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It's wired correctly. I have had the Accel points eliminator for about 5 years. I have confirmed TDC with the valve cover off and checked the firing order. I just rebuilt the carb so it has fresh gas that I squirt in from a bottle. I have 12v at the coil (no ballast resistor) and I made sure I have continuity from the negative on the battery to the block and the coil so I think I have a good ground. Is there a test I could run to figure out if the the problem is in the primary or secondary? I wonder if the coil would put out a blue spark if I held it to ground?
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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I have a 1964 f100 with a 292/3 speed. I've had it for a few years and it's usually been pretty reliable, I drove it a lot. Last summer it started dying on me and wouldn't restart. After a few tows home and some tinkering it hasn't started since last October. Spark is orange.
So the system has been in the truck for five years? Are you using an ACCEL COIL or another style? Is the coil rated for no external resistor? What happened prior to it's beginning to fail? If at any time you used a coil calling for an external resistor (or resistor wire in harness) you may have damaged the module.
As mentioned the spark should be blue and hot. Check + VOLT @ BAT + post and compare what you have between that and the + terminal of the coil with IGN SW on (no start). Again, check volt @ coil while attempting to start (crank).
Test for spark at the spark plug(s) also. You are using ACCEL cap and rotor?
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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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I converted to the Accel 2020 points eliminator 5 years ago and used an Accel 8140 coil, with no ballast resistor. 2 months ago I decided to try a new 8140 coil and Accel 2020 to eliminate them as the cause, so they are new. I know I have battery voltage at the coil. I will have to have someone crank the truck to check for cranking voltage at the coil.
The original problem that took it off of the road was it would shut off randomly after getting good and hot (a half hour drive) and not restart. I noticed the coil was getting VERY hot so I figured my 8140 coil was failing and replaced it.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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I converted to the Accel 2020 points eliminator 5 years ago and used an Accel 8140 coil, with no ballast resistor. 2 months ago I decided to try a new 8140 coil and Accel 2020 to eliminate them as the cause, so they are new. I know I have battery voltage at the coil. I will have to have someone crank the truck to check for cranking voltage at the coil.
The original problem that took it off of the road was it would shut off randomly after getting good and hot (a half hour drive) and not restart. I noticed the coil was getting VERY hot so I figured my 8140 coil was failing and replaced it.
OK, your setup appears correct according to ACCEL INSTRUCTIONS.
One thing I do not understand is that the module uses a remote GRD rather that the OEM GRD @ the breaker plates. There is no reference I have seen in the instructions as to whether to keep or defeat.
At this point I would contact their TECH LINE as there is something going on that I cannot pull out.
When you checked the spark intensity through the grounded coil wire, was the engine cranking or running? You have no TACH hookup on the circuit, correct?
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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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I suppose I could try lifting the remote ground and putting it directly to the breaker plate. There is a tach in the circuit. It won't start so I was checking spark intensity while cranking.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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Make sure the remote ground is good. I did not see in the INSTR what ACCEL wanted done with the OEM GRD. Did you remove it? Maybe reinstall as there can't be too many GRD's.
Is your system GEN or ALT?
Also, read the INSTR as to TACH circuit. PERTRONIX had a problem with this also.
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By Sandbird - 5 Years Ago
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The Accel instructions shows fig. # 3 wiring diagram using resistance wire along with Accel performance coil 8140. All three wiring configs show resistance used in all of the examples. The instructions seem to have contradictions and there is mention of damage to the 2020 from over voltage. I would install a new 2020 using a ballast resistor and be sure to use the thermo conductive grease as it will help dissipate heat. I would continue to use the ground to the engine block. I think overheating has been your problem.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Yep, resistance of some kind should be used and none is. There is a whole paragraph at the beginning of the instructions explaining that a resistor must be used.
Link to instructions: https://documents.holley.com/accel_instructions_points_eliminator_kit_ford_2020.pdf
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By Gene Purser - 5 Years Ago
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Directly under the paragraph about resistance there is a paragraph titled "Exceptions" that says you can use battery voltage with one of Accel's approved coils, and the 8140 used by the OP is one of the approved coils. I can't read the words pointing to the incoming wire on figure #3, but it doesn't show a resistance or ballast resistor. If the problem were mine, I would put a set of points/condenser in the distributor to try.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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If you zoom in on figure 3. it says "oem primary resistance wire."
That would be one of the contradictions that Sandbird mentions.
It does say in various other places that it is not needed with the 8140 so it probably is ok but clarification from Accel is needed.
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By Gene Purser - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks Charlie. The words just got blurred when I zoomed in.
By the way, I looked for info on the 8140 coil, and it says it it has 1.4 ohm resistance in the primary circuit. Not too different from many other coils.
As a side note, Pertronix says that adding resistance ahead of the coil won't affect normal performance on their units and can help the unit run cooler. They said that it "might" affect high RPM performance.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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The ACCEL INSTR SHEET IS CONFUSING -
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By Gene Purser - 5 Years Ago
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It is a LITTLE confusing. It is obvious that the words referencing the resistance wire weren't removed when the resistance symbol was removed from figure #1to make figure #3. The "exceptions" paragraph is clear enough to explain the mistake.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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It is a whole bunch confusing. You have to pull each item out.
The system is overly complicated compared to PERTRONIX II (IMO).
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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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So I looked in to this and I left the resistor wire in the circuit when I did this conversion originally. It is reading 1.6 ohms of resistance. Is the consensus to leave it in? Try without? The system is still on the stock generator.
Thanks to everyone for the help so far.
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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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Just had the wife crank it while I checked voltage at the coil and it's only 5vdc when ON and 3vdc cranking.
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By Gene Purser - 5 Years Ago
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Well, there you have it. You have a bad/undercharged battery or too much resistance in the circuit. If your battery tests good, you might have bad connections or components in the wiring. Start checking backwards from the coil to see where the voltage increases: At the input side of the resistor? At the ignition switch?
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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I agree, make sure the battery is fully charged and then check battery voltage without a load and then while cranking. If it drops under 9v, it's time to replace the battery.
Re the resistor, it does look like the instructions say it can be left out with the components you are using. The wire being described as a resistance wire in the diagram is probably left in by mistake, as Gene pointed out. If you want no confusion, contact Accel for clarification.
I did have a bad battery cause this same situation with my ignition. The battery was good enough to turn the engine but voltage dropped low enough that the ignition did not work.
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By Sandbird - 5 Years Ago
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Mac,
The factory wiring by-passes the ballast resistor when cranking the engine to give the ignition a boost to help compensate for the voltage drop from the starter motor. It does this with a terminal on the starter solenoid that connects battery voltage directly to the pos. on the coil. Did you alter this wiring ?
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By cokefirst - 5 Years Ago
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I had a similar problem on a 55 Thunderbird. It left me stranded a couple of times and was hard to impossible to start. After some testing, I found that the hot ignition wire was loose on the back of the switch. A simple tightening of the nut and problem solved.
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By mac - 5 Years Ago
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On the start side of the solenoid I have around 9v while cranking. On the "run" side of the solenoid I have 6-7 volts. Battery positive to negative is 12.4. Did not improve while jumping the battery from my daily. I have a good ground at the breaker plate to engine block, good from engine block to battery. I don't have continuity from the negative on the coil to the distributor housing, not sure if that's right or not. Otherwise the wiring passes all of the tests in my 64 shop manual for proving out the primary ignition circuit.
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By Tedster - 5 Years Ago
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I'm a little unclear on your cranking voltage, though measured directly across the battery posts 9.6 volts is considered a defective battery. There is a temperature correction factor to be applied, but a strong healthy battery should maintain well north of 11 volts while cranking.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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The "I" Terminal should have very close to 12 Volts. This Wire goes to the + Side of Coil for starting. You only have 6-7 Volts apparently. Not enough to start the Motor. Are You using a good load tested Battery? Under cranking load it should still provide 12 Volts to "I" Terminal. If the Battery is good then maybe the Solenoid is the Problem.. Battery Voltage of 12.4 is very low for a fully charged Battery. 13-13.5 is more realistic.
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By Sandbird - 5 Years Ago
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Every one that's trouble shot automotive electrical problems develop their own methods that work for them but are confusing to others. To level the playing field and start from ground zero I have to agree with Gene's previous suggestion that the points ignition should be re-installed to see if the car is capable to run.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Sandbird (11/10/2019)
Every one that's trouble shot automotive electrical problems develop their own methods that work for them but are confusing to others. To level the playing field and start from ground zero I have to agree with Gene's previous suggestion that the points ignition should be re-installed to see if the car is capable to run.
Still requires 12 Volts from Solenoid Terminal to initiate starting the Motor. 6-7 Volts won't do it. Solenoid no good I think.
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By Tedster - 5 Years Ago
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oldcarmark (11/10/2019)
Battery Voltage of 12.4 is very low for a fully charged Battery. 13-13.5 is more realistic.
Voltages north of 13 are typical for a battery holding a "surface charge", after recent use in a running engine. Standard lead-acid, the old fashioned kind with filler caps for watering, have an open circuit voltage of 12.65 volts at 77° F.
"Maintenance Free" 12.80 volts. If his battery is the latter type it is getting low.
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By Sandbird - 5 Years Ago
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We both touched on this topic to sniff around the solenoid. The OP jumped the car with a known good battery and did all the tests per factory service manual for the primary ignition which were completed . Just thought it would be simple to try the points ignition and see the results.
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By Sandbird - 5 Years Ago
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If you hot wire the ignition by connecting a jumper wire from the battery positive directly to the coil positive you will eliminate the primary wiring, solenoid, ballast resistor, and ignition switch. If you haven't already disconnect the tach. That leaves the Accel 2020 and coil which is enough to run the ignition. if it starts you will have to remove hot wire from the battery to shut engine off'. Make sure it's out of gear hand brake on and wheels chocked.
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