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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Anyone here know what the dimensions are of the hairpin clip that holds the vacuum advance rod to the swivel plate for a '56 load-o-matic distributor?
Im looking at assortments but not sure if they have a size that even will work.
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By KULTULZ - 6 Years Ago
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Is the DIST in or out of the engine?
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Its in the engine. I dont want to attwmpt to remove it.
Spent 2 hours and found a napa that had a hairpin assorment set happened to have two of the right size hair pins how ever they were a hair longer.
But now i have a new delima.
I can move the swivel plate by had quite stiff i think to advance. But the plate doesnt return on its own. Need to know if this is normal for theses engines or if its gummed up.
If its gummed up need a tip on what to use to clean it without removing the dist.
Aside from that things are going well except for firing out theses metal vacuum lines.
I tweaked the main advance line and got it to work but the second line with the loop it is in the way of the theottle bell crank.
The throttle is another issue my theottle rod from the bell crank to carb is too short. Found a tbird one listed on larrys going to hit up my parts manual see if car and thunderbird used the same rod.
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By Tedster - 6 Years Ago
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Removing (and re-installing) a distributor isn't that bad. If I can do it, anybody can. Do a little homework, lots of tips & tricks at our fingertips online these days. Engine will start up first time everytime, even the ignition timing will be "close enough", if the routine is followed carefully. The reason I say this, is because it is a pain in the you know what, to work on distributors when installed on a Y block due to their location. You could try solvents & oil, but petroleum products and points don't get along.
The breaker plate in a LOM should (I think) just like post '56 distributors, should move freely and smoothly and not stick, the canister arm should hold when vacuum is applied etc., and the breaker plate should snap back when vacuum is released. A shop manual would he helpful. Because I don't honestly know for sure. But it stands to reason a sticking plate is no bueno.
Another thing to look at is distributor wobble (155,000 miles?!) particularly with contact points. Remove the cap & rotor. With the point rubbing block on a cam lobe peak (points open) try to move the distributor shaft firmly side to side in different directions while observing point gap. If the gap moves noticeably, the distributor bushing is excessively worn. The ignition dwell will never be consistent and engine may even knock or "ping" with the timing retarded. Not trying to be a debbie downer here, just my observation when a distributor has problems in one area, it is likely there are problems elsewhere. It is a critical electro-mechanical analog device and it's 60 some years young!
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Tedster (12/16/2018)
Removing (and re-installing) a distributor isn't that bad. If I can do it, anybody can. Do a little homework, lots of tips & tricks at our fingertips online these days. Engine will start up first time everytime, even the ignition timing will be "close enough", if the routine is followed carefully. The reason I say this, is because it is a pain in the you know what, to work on distributors when installed on a Y block due to their location. You could try solvents & oil, but petroleum products and points don't get along. The breaker plate in a LOM should (I think) just like post '56 distributors, should move freely and smoothly and not stick, the canister arm should hold when vacuum is applied etc., and the breaker plate should snap back when vacuum is released. A shop manual would he helpful. Because I don't honestly know for sure. But it stands to reason a sticking plate is no bueno. Another thing to look at is distributor wobble (155,000 miles?!) particularly with contact points. Remove the cap & rotor. With the point rubbing block on a cam lobe peak (points open) try to move the distributor shaft firmly side to side in different directions while observing point gap. If the gap moves noticeably, the distributor bushing is excessively worn. The ignition dwell will never be consistent and engine may even knock or "ping" with the timing retarded. Not trying to be a debbie downer here, just my observation when a distributor has problems in one area, it is likely there are problems elsewhere. It is a critical electro-mechanical analog device and it's 60 some years young!
I don't mind pulling the dist I pull them all day long. my thing is Ive seen a few people now state old Y blocks you can lose the rod down into the oil pan. Not something I want to do on a vehicle that has to be mobile.
We pushed our move back to April of 2019 and I cant have the shaft falling down into the oil pan and have to push it out of the way so I can try to pull the engine for something like that.
I could spend the money and send this dist off to larrys, they offer a dist rebuilding service but that would take a month or so for turn around.
I was thinking maybe use something like electronics part cleaner maybe its enough of a solvent to free things up without actually harming the points or other electronics.
I have just about all manuals I could find and I would have to check but lots of these finer points have no mention in there, such as how to replace the choke heat tube and how it should fit together. I will check but I don't know if it said anything about sticking. I think it said it should move and not be frozen which mine does move but it doesn't snap back like with more modern dist that's why I am concerned and want to rectify this before I go wondering why my engine is still pinging.
I know the vacuum advance was working cause I checked it and it was full advance at idle and then I pulled the vacuum advance hose off and while running I saw timing dropped to 0* initial timing. That's how I found out the shop that last worked on the engine some 30+ years ago retarded the initial timing to combat their 2150 2V carb hooked to a single can attached to this dist that was pulling full advance at idle.
So I know it works and returns back to idle but I just am wary of this and if this is a issue I do want to correct it as best as I can.
~Update~
I went through my digital shop manual in the dist section it talks about function as well as disassembly but no mention of the swivel plate and how it should work. Going to grab my Holley pressure type distributor manual and thumb through that see if it has anything.
~Update~
Yep went through page by page of my distributor manual and it didn't make no mention of effort on the swivel plate or if it should snap back when assembled. Did state in one part during assembly of the breaker plate that it should move freely but that was before the springs were installed.
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By KULTULZ - 6 Years Ago
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On the LOM DIST, the breaker plate swivels on the upper DIST shaft bushing. It may be corroded or just worn. Maybe remove the point set and use WD with wand to the pivot bushing, let sit and see if it frees up. If no luck, it will need a rebuild. Check shaft movement also as mentioned. If it is loose, it has to come out.
Just make sure the re-builder you choose is competent. Maybe call BUBBA'S IGN and see who they recommend.
ALL COMPONENTS of the LOM must operate as OEM set. You add a cam and you may have problems. All (CARB-DIST) has to be set as one component. You can adjust the spring cams to modify the actual curve. That is about it as the system is calibrated as a whole.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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KULTULZ (12/17/2018)
On the LOM DIST, the breaker plate swivels on the upper DIST shaft bushing. It may be corroded or just worn. Maybe remove the point set and use WD with wand to the pivot bushing, let sit and see if it frees up. If no luck, it will need a rebuild. Check shaft movement also as mentioned. If it is loose, it has to come out. Just make sure the re-builder you choose is competent. Maybe call BUBBA'S IGN and see who they recommend. ALL COMPONENTS of the LOM must operate as OEM set. You add a cam and you may have problems. All (CARB-DIST) has to be set as one component. You can adjust the spring cams to modify the actual curve. That is about it as the system is calibrated as a whole.
Ill try that. I didnt feel any slop when turning the swivel plate it felt quite solid as far as play goes.
The oil fill plug to oil the dist does this lube the bushing?
Cause ive neber put oil in it and the engine and car did sit for 30 plus years.
If it does i will need to find some kind of oiler witha tiny flexible straw to get oil in though. If it does lube the bushing that chould be my whole problem. Maybe use a straw and squirt some wd40 in this lube point to let soak a bit then top off with 30w oil like my shop manual states to use.
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By Tedster - 6 Years Ago
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The oil cap feeds a drilled passage to the distributor bushing, which is a sintered oilite type. What that means, is it's made of a porous material, oil-impregnated during manufacture. There's no "hole" in these bushings, it soaks the additional oil up. With that bit of maybe interesting though useless trivia out of the way, it's doubtful that this would be a factor with an issue concerning the breaker plate.
The pump rod has a keeper or retaining clip on it, supposed to anyway, to keep it from being pulled out when removing distributor. Sometimes, this seemingly unimportant part is left out by less than "detail oriented" folks.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Tedster (12/17/2018)
The oil cap feeds a drilled passage to the distributor bushing, which is a sintered oilite type. What that means, is it's made of a porous material, oil-impregnated during manufacture. There's no "hole" in these bushings, it soaks the additional oil up. With that bit of maybe interesting though useless trivia out of the way, it's doubtful that this would be a factor with an issue concerning the breaker plate. The pump rod has a keeper or retaining clip on it, supposed to anyway, to keep it from being pulled out when removing distributor. Sometimes, this seemingly unimportant part is left out by less than "detail oriented" folks.
Ah ok was just wondering cause my manuals state to add a few drops of oil ever so many thousand miles. Wonfering if that could be my issue if it hasnt been oiled in years. I havent oiled it cause its hard to get to and dont k ow how to oil it. I kewp looking at those light machine oil bottles with the telwscoping straw but then id have to drain the light oil out as shop manual indicated 20w or 30w cant remeber. I doibt a 20w or 30w oil could flow out that needle straw.
The clip was on mine, just shattered when i was putting it back in.
Thankfully i got a replacement in a small assortment box from the local napa.
On a side note i can get some of that 3 in 1 penetrating multi puprose oil with the extendible straw. Wonder if i could use that as a way to direct some oil to the breaker plate bushing without pulling too much off the dist.
Really dont want to use wd40 by itself as its not a lubricant.
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By Tedster - 6 Years Ago
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It oils the distributor bushing/shaft, nothing else. Oil vapors are not good for points. Since the retaining clip is installed it would be adviseable to pull the distributor for cleaning & inspection. If it has 155k miles and it sounds like it does a replacement would save time.
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By KULTULZ - 6 Years Ago
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WD-40® Multi-Use Product protects metal from rust and corrosion, penetrates stuck parts, displaces moisture and lubricates almost anything. It even removes grease, grime and more from most surfaces.
What you are trying to do here is free the breaker plate so that it returns to rest, if not dmaged.
If the points are so critical to keep away from lubricant(s), cam lube couldn't be used. There is enough splash oil vapors in the distributor just from crankcase pressure. You wouldn't try to drown it, just reach it and let it penetrate. Clean it as well as you can with parts cleaner and drag a piece of paper through the points (removed before attempting) before putting back in service.
Yes lube the oil cup. If the car has been sitting, start with 3M machine oil. Go to engine oil later.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Tedster (12/17/2018)
It oils the distributor bushing/shaft, nothing else. Oil vapors are not good for points. Since the retaining clip is installed it would be adviseable to pull the distributor for cleaning & inspection. If it has 155k miles and it sounds like it does a replacement would save time.
I planned on pulling the dist later on and shipping to Larry`s Tbird and Mustang for rebuilding. I am just trying to get the car driveable where I can drive it to maintain battery try and get the rings unstuck which I think they might be due to the blow by. Plus I need it to be able to pull itself up on a trailer once I do my move. I understand it needs to be rebuilt or replaced, I have that on my to do list, just don't want to do it just now as I kind of want to keep the vehicle able to be mobile.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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KULTULZ (12/17/2018)
WD-40® Multi-Use Product protects metal from rust and corrosion, penetrates stuck parts, displaces moisture and lubricates almost anything. It even removes grease, grime and more from most surfaces.
What you are trying to do here is free the breaker plate so that it returns to rest, if not dmaged.
If the points are so critical to keep away from lubricant(s), cam lube couldn't be used. There is enough splash oil vapors in the distributor just from crankcase pressure. You wouldn't try to drown it, just reach it and let it penetrate. Clean it as well as you can with parts cleaner and drag a piece of paper through the points (removed before attempting) before putting back in service.
Yes lube the oil cup. If the car has been sitting, start with 3M machine oil. Go to engine oil later.
I can pull the points out that's no big deal. I also have a points file.
I just want to hold off any major disassembly for the time being.
I know the plate returns back to rest with the engine running as I do remember checking initial timing as the engine lacked power and was a little low on vacuum. I pulled the vacuum hose and the timing went from like 30 degrees advance at idle to 0 degrees so I know it returns with the engine running.
It just doesn't return to rest when I move it by hand without the engine running. That's what had me concerned about if that was normal or not.
I can do WD40, I thought about trying something like electrical parts cleaner even as that wont harm the electronics but it would wash away any grime that might be making the stiff feeling if the stiff feeling isn't the advance springs.
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By KULTULZ - 6 Years Ago
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"I pulled the vacuum hose and the timing went from like 30 degrees advance at idle to 0 degrees so I know it returns with the engine running."
... hmmpf ...
Maybe best to leave it alone then until it fires with the advance working and see what the light tells you. Do oil the cup though.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Also I forgot to mention I got some of that WD40 specialist rust release penetrative spray, would that be something ok to use on this or should I just use my plain old WD40 that I have?
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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KULTULZ (12/17/2018)
"I pulled the vacuum hose and the timing went from like 30 degrees advance at idle to 0 degrees so I know it returns with the engine running." ... hmmpf ... Maybe best to leave it alone then until it fires with the advance working and see what the light tells you. Do oil the cup though.
That's what I was thinking of doing but I was kinda concerned cause this is now using venturi vacuum where as the old setup with the old carb was running manifold vacuum. not sure if it would be strong enough of a signal. This is all new to me so I am trying to eliminate as much of a headache as I can for myself where possible. I got some 3 in 1 machine oil as well as some sae 20 3 in 1 motor oil for electric motors figured I could try those out. Might just say screw it and pull the points out anyway and use some of my wd40 specialist rust release penetrant spray and see if that helps. I mean its not like I got nothing to lose giving it a go.
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By Tedster - 6 Years Ago
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[b]KULTULZ (12/17/2018)If the points are so critical to keep away from lubricant(s), cam lube couldn't be used.
Distributor Cam grease is quite thick, I'm not even certain it's petroleum based. In any case the shop manual is clear on this, it warns against using motor oil or chassis grease etc, anywhere near the points, for this reason . Jus' sayin'.
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By KULTULZ - 6 Years Ago
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...cause this is now using venturi vacuum where as the old setup with the old carb was running manifold vacuum. not sure if it would be strong enough of a signal.
Hold on a minute. We are talking 1956 LOAD-O-MATIC correct? H4000 W Spark Control Valve and Single (breaker plate) ADV DIST?
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By KULTULZ - 6 Years Ago
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Distributor Cam grease is quite thick, I'm not even certain it's petroleum based. In any case the shop manual is clear on this, it warns against using motor oil or chassis grease etc, anywhere near the points, for this reason .
Correct. Modern cam lubricant is a dielectric gel. Previous was (special) thickened chassis grease. The idea is not to smear it on.
After using a product like WD40, you would wipe the points with alcohol if left installed.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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KULTULZ (12/17/2018)
...cause this is now using venturi vacuum where as the old setup with the old carb was running manifold vacuum. not sure if it would be strong enough of a signal.
Hold on a minute. We are talking 1956 LOAD-O-MATIC correct? H4000 W Spark Control Valve and Single (breaker plate) ADV DIST?
Correct, 1956 dist with dual reservoir vacuum advance with two vacuum lines to a holley 4000 carb.
Might upgrade to a newer dist, I see the local napa sells a dist for a 1960 F100 with a 292 for $80 plus $15 core. But I already got all the parts before I stumbled across this otherwise I would have went with this dist and modified my holley 4000 to function with the late model dist.
Aside from that I am working with oem parts correct for 1956 model year.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Tedster (12/17/2018)
[b]KULTULZ (12/17/2018)If the points are so critical to keep away from lubricant(s), cam lube couldn't be used. Distributor Cam grease is quite thick, I'm not even certain it's petroleum based. In any case the shop manual is clear on this, it warns against using motor oil or chassis grease etc, anywhere near the points, for this reason . Jus' sayin'.
That's what the shop manual says it says apply a thin layer of distributor grease on the cam lobe then rotate engine and use a toothpick to pull the built up excess off the point follower to prevent it from being slung around the inside of the dist at high rpm.
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By Rusty_S85 - 6 Years Ago
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Update to give everyone. Got the engine running today finally. Looks like everything is functioning properly just need to play around with the idle mixture some as in gear there is a roughness in the engine but when you bring the rpm up the engine is pretty smooth.
I am uploading a video right now to youtube to link it on here when its done but below is what I have done so far.
Initial timing set at 12* BTDC with vacuum lines disconnected from dist.
With the vacuum lines attached at 750 rpm idle in neutral venturi vacuum was showing timing to be 14* btdc. Accelerating the engine showed a increase to 30* btdc I think it was around 1200 - 1500 rpm when it hit 30* btdc. Hitting the throttle fairly hard from a stand still to cause manifold vacuum to drop I saw for a split second the white mark for TDC go full retard behind the timing point before moving back up around 20ish degrees. Seems like the advance is functioning. Cant vouch for the timing curve how ever will be digging my book out to make notes on that aspect to do some checking and see.
I set the dashpot as shop manual said. Had engine idling at full hot idle and adjusted the dash pot bolt till idle speed came up and then backed it off 2 full turns to obtain the recommended clearance. hitting the throttle now results in a slow decrease in rpm from 1200 rpm down to idle as the dashpot slows the throttle down.
I double checked the transmission rod and was glad I did as I never turned it 2 to 3 turns counter clockwise for proper setting.
Only thing left now is waiting on my heater gasket set so I can pull the leaking heater out of the car and replace the heater control valve and all the brittle broken vacuum lines. I also need to check the vacuum output of my pump as well should be 15" at 500 rpm idle which means I will have to idle the engine down in gear as I have it currently set at 550 rpm in gear which is the max spec I found listed in my shop manual of 450 to 550 rpm in gear. But all in all I am very happy with the results though. Engine never ran this smooth or had this snappy of a throttle response. That 0* initial timing that the engine had to force it to work with a late model carburetor really killed power on this engine. Cant wait to get it to the point to take it around the block and see what the old engine can still do.
This is the video here, only 33 seconds didn't have time to make a longer one as I had other plans I had to take care of for tomorrow so didn't get to get my usual idle at exhaust I do. The video is also taken before I made my dashpot adjustment so the engine comes back to idle quite fast compared to how it does now with the dashpot doing its job.
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