|
By Ford Junky - 6 Years Ago
|
Hey there from Prince George B.C. Canada, I'm a new guy round here and am doing some planning before tearin into my '57 Ranchero once the snow melts. I'm lookin for thoughts on front suspension ideas for it. I would like rack and pinon steering, good handling, and modern (read effective) brakes. I was going to do some measuring and see how a Crown Vic setup lines up but I remember reading somewhere its not a good fit. The plan is for the car to be a regular driver and some spirited cornering is likely to be a significant part of that. The plan is for a built Y Block and a 6 speed.
|
|
By miker - 6 Years Ago
|
Welcome to the site. I’m just south of Seattle, which by your distances isn’t that far.
First, the 57 fords had a pretty decent front end, especially if rebuilt and aligned to more modern specs for radial tires. Front disc kits are pretty readily available. If scarebird is back up and shipping (they moved from Everett, WA to Albuquerque NM) they’ve got bracket kits and you can buy the rest of the parts list locally. Given shipping and duties that might be a pretty good deal for you
Front clips tend to be a major undertaking, and often don’t really work out that well. The ones I’ve seen always feel like a modern front bolted to an old back, not like the modern car they came out of. Likewise with a r&p conversion. The one in my 55 bird works perfect, but you don’t want to know what it cost to get rid of the bump steer, especially after I went to 225/60 15”’s on 7” rims. The slightly faster ratio would only matter if you’re going to autocross the car.
Try over on the Ford Barn, I think there’s a social group for the 57 cars, or at http://57fordsforever.com.
For the Y block, Mummert’s site is a good start. Tim McMasters and Eaton Balancing also have great info. And here of course.
|
|
By 2721955meteor - 6 Years Ago
|
macs have all the parts to refresh the front suspension,they have all the stuff to rebuild the stock power steering. to get good brakes go for power disk kits, best to use 15in wheels. idid all this on my 57 ranchero except discs. there is a bracket avail to help to inst workable power booster. but more
effort than its worth. i am in surrey bc just sold my ranchero, but it handled well and with a 292 with a holley 4v and a 3speed manual,rather quick with good heads and shadbolt cam.. i have a pair of heads for ys they have 1.9 intakes nd new springs etc,also rebuilt rocker assembly. if interested give me a call . cliff 778 5741940 to ct1940@ shaw.ca.. fun ride this rancheros.
2
|
|
By Ford Junky - 6 Years Ago
|
Mike, thanks for the reply, and you're right Seattle isn't that far at all. Been there many times. I'm fully aware that clipping a car is a major undertaking but if that's what I need to do to get the results I'm after I would be willing to do it. autocross is not at all out of the realm of possibilities. Id like the car to really cook in the corners, or at least as good as I can possibly get it. I've been to Scarebirds site and am hoping for something a bit more aggressive in the braking dept than what they offer, maybe my handling/braking goals are too ambitious, but I'm aiming for a real solid, fun driving experience and I tend to push my vehicles pretty hard.
Ive been doing tons of reading and planning on both Mummert's and Eaton's sites and a set of John's heads and an intake will definitely be part of the build. I appreciate the input, thank you very much.
|
|
By Ford Junky - 6 Years Ago
|
|
Cliff, thank you for the info on Macs, Ill have a look at their offerings for sure .My Ranchero is a Lower Mainland car as well, from Chilliwack. been parked for a buncha years though. I appreciate the offer on the heads, but I have my heart set on a pair of Mummert's alloy units on this build.
|
|
By PF Arcand - 6 Years Ago
|
Another place to check out might be Drop & Stop. He offers lowered spindles with Disc Brakes. Unfortunately, to get a good brake setup on a 57 (I'm told) requires either Granada Monarch 14" wheels or other 15" wheels. Rack & pinion steering is likely a significant project. On 55-56s some used Cavalier parts, but apparently that setup reduces ground clearance quite some. Another route that might help is to use a 1958 Ford steering box, because it's a recirculating ball setup. However, buy the entire steering columm or you will run into a headache with the revised from 1957 Horn setup.. Don't ask me to explain not doing it that way..
|
|
By 57RancheroJim - 6 Years Ago
|
The front suspension is really pretty good, weak point is the sway bar and there is good after market bar to fix that. Tons of info on suspension, steering and brakes on 57's, come join us.
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php
|
|
By miker - 6 Years Ago
|
If that’s where you want to end up, start here. Art’s in Fife on the north side of Tacoma. I’ve seen this 57 several times at shows, including when it was under construction.
https://www.artmorrison.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=24062
Here’s the catalog. They’re really nice people, and the shop’s very impressive. I can give you more into if you pm me.
https://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/2018_ame_catalog_LR.pdf
|
|
By PF Arcand - 6 Years Ago
|
Observation. If you plan on staying with the Y-block & I'm sure everyone on this site would agree with that, I can't see what you would gain going to the expense & work of clippin the car? And not to mention that I've seen a couple of clip jobs that didn't turn out well!.. The 57 Frame was a complete re de of the 54-56 Frame & featured a re calibrated ball joint front end..
|
|
By GREENBIRD56 - 6 Years Ago
|
There are (at least) three components to what you might want to do:
(1) Upgrade the brakes to discs - and perhaps add a power unit. Drop n Stop is a good source of uprights, a Lincoln Versailles of the right year - or you can hunt down a set of '71-'73 Mustang / Cougar spindles (same as a Boss Mustang) and use any one of a dozen good kits to soup them up. Many of the later disc (and drum) brake uprights have their spindles set to a lower ride height - and depending on how you fit the early ball joint tapers, you can really put her down in the weeds. Many have done this and it is a proven change that works well.
(2) Move the lower ball joint / A-arm ahead to correct the caster to something a bit more stable. Mid fifties Fords steer like a tricycle and don't follow "center" like more modern geometry. Easy to do on an early T-bird, not so easy on your outfit - but worth looking into. Only 10 years later, the TransAm Mustang had a much better set-up and it is worth copying.
(3) Look for a proven steering upgrade - there have been several rack and pinion set-ups built and used by fellows on this site. The little Pinto/Mustang rack is a "front steer" and won't work. Most I've seen used GM parts.
|
|
By Shaggy - 6 Years Ago
|
I will admit the standard brakes are a little sub-par on my '59 but i'm sure a power booster is really all you need for something decent but you may still have some brake fade, i'm considering long term mabey adapting aluminum drums. (i daily mine stock and run it pretty hard) For handling, the right set of shocks will go a long way, i'm really suprised how well my '59 handles as stock, i've had 60's cars with radials that i felt worse than this. It depends on what you want, a race spring rate could be easily ordered out of the MOOG catolog too. One thing on my to do, list is to junk the stock idler arm assy and go a bearing setup(i'll just make one, but they are sold) I just cant get the little bit of slop out of mine even with a brand new arm.
Also i daily bias, nothing wrong with it except when you hit grooves in the road it kinda wants to follow them.
|
|
By Pete 55Tbird - 6 Years Ago
|
|
Steve, you said "2) Move the lower ball joint / A-arm ahead to correct the caster to something a bit more stable. Mid fifties Fords steer like a tricycle and don't follow "center" like more modern geometry" can you explain this in more detail or provide a link. Thanks Pete
|
|
By Dave V - 6 Years Ago
|
|
Could the extra caster be achieved with the shims? DaveV
|
|
By miker - 6 Years Ago
|
I can’t speak for Steve, but he helped me on the front suspension modifications on my 55 bird. I’m going to assume the 57’s are similar. I know they’re not the same.
Often these old cars won’t put enough caster in to get the car to track like a modern car. The bias plies took more effort to turn (at least the one’s on my roadster did), speeds were lower, and straight line stability took a back seat. On the birds you can get a litttle more caster by shifting the lower A arm forward. My bird wouldn’t get to more than 2 degrees caster before the shims started to screw up the camber. It’s not that apparent with stock width wheels and tires, but as you start to increase rim width and tire size you feel it more. Any bump steer also becomes more apparent.
The angles of the upper and lower control arms also contribute to increasing understeer from body roll in hard corners. The “Shelby drop” solution from the original GT350 isn’t that easy on the earlier cars. There’s a way around that also, but it’s pretty OT for this post
|
|
By GREENBIRD56 - 6 Years Ago
|
I don't know where to start......... I have always wished my 'bird steered and handled more like a sports car and less like a tippy '55 sedan. Wanders like crazy on a perfectly straight highway with new parts and a factory alignment - steers and corners like a kids wagon. So, while I had the front end stripped apart I "reverse engineered" the A-arms and spindle upright positions. I'm not an automotive engineer - mining equipment is my usual occupation - I found some useful software on the internet to analyze the arcs of motion. NASCAR has some super stuff they use - this wasn't it - but it soon showed some serious problems. The caster wasn't even close to modern dual A-arm systems - and the spindles had the opposite camber required when the springs were deflected - tipped out at the top of the wheel!
I had previously restored a '67 Cougar and it had much better alignment spec's than the 'bird . It really got "with it" after I converted the front suspension to be like the Shelby/ Bud Moore TransAm racing cars of the era. So I looked up the Shelby alignments - and went looking for a way to duplicate them by relocating the A-arm and ball joint positions. First thing you find is the early design does not have anything close to the amount of caster required to naturally "center" and maintain stability at high speed. Look at the alignment spec's for a 1989 T'bird - they had tons of it - my wife had one and it would literally go from Casper to Shoshone, Wyoming at 85 and rarely need correction in a horrible crosswind. To get this sort of correction on the '56, the upper ball joint needed to go back or the lower forward - by a lot, not within the factory adjustment travel at all.
The business of the spindle upright deflecting out at the top is caused by the A-arm being tipped down at the outside when the car was at static ride height. This was factory design circa 1955 - but in fact, to move the tire interface with the road as the spring deflects for a curve, it needs to start with the upper ball joint center at the same elevation as the inner pivot. Many racing cars use screw-in ball joints that are derived from the big car Chrysler joints of the mid-sixties - very popular at the track today and a very rugged design - and the upper has a taper that matches the Ford uprights. A company called Howe makes these joints for racing applications - and offers them in extended lengths that alters the elevation of the upper pivot position. The upper A-arm of the Ford '55,'56,'57 'birds (and the sedans) has an upper joint that bolts into a "C" shaped opening. So if you use that mounting arrangement - and adapt it to a Howe joint with a 1 inch extended stud - you can have much improved handling - and not do too much alteration to the car.
.
MikeR had a race shop fit these parts to his outfit and then reset the alignment, mine is still in development. He says it now drives more like his Miata - and will make an early Vette look like a "little red wagon" in a cornering contest.
This is a 1971 Mustang drum brake upright - refitted with a 12 inch diameter, 1.25 thick rotor. It will "out stop" a late model Vette. The upright is easily adapted to my T'bird by refitting the lower taper. This development of the front end has been going on for a while - and I still haven't found a steering set-up to suit me.
|
|
By miker - 6 Years Ago
|
|
Steve explained that way better than I could, and managed to find the picture I sent him that I couldn’t. The credit for that mod goes to Steve, and a couple of very serious and experienced vintage racing guys. It did make an amazing difference in cornering, and really brings the front end to near the level of the tri 4 bar in the rear.
|
|
By PF Arcand - 6 Years Ago
|
A random thought on the issue of mid 50s Ford steering not returning to center well & tending to wander some. Was the problem just poor engineering, or was there a logical reason? Many cars of that period, probably the majority, did " not" have power steering. If they were engineered to return to center harder, would they not have been even harder to steer, particularly when parking etc?..
|
|
By Dobie - 6 Years Ago
|
|
There was a logical reason. Since most cars had manual steering the gear ratio was pretty low to ease tight maneuvering such as parallel parking (a dying art). In comparison to modern vehicles, yes, the steering required more input, hence the moniker "Armstrong Steering". When the geometry is in spec and the system properly maintained the steering effort really isn't all that bad, it just needs a shipload of turns lock to lock. If the wheel doesn't return to center when left to its own devices then something is amiss, probably caster. Also, the system was designed for bias ply tires, they are easier to turn at low speeds than radials. Early power steering systems mostly consisted of a hydraulic system superimposed on the manual system. To me they always felt overboosted yet somehow numb.
|
|
By suede57ford - 6 Years Ago
|
|
The Borgeson box for '57 Ford works so good, no need to go to any of the exotic stuff.
I did the Borgesson on a '57 RanchWagon recently combined with Granada Spindles and it truly drives as good as a modern car. It was so easy to do and I was able to connect the stock column shift with the AOD trans with just a few modifications. I did add 13" Baer brakes to the spindles so it stops as fast as a new car too, but 11' Granada discs would be fine for most.
I had the front end aligned to modern specs with additional caster. I did add a thick washer under the lower control arm rear bushing in front of the crossmember to add a little more caster. There was plenty of room for adjustment with some shim on the upper control arm.
I feel totally comfortable on any road with my family . Others have that have driven it can't believe how stable it is at any speed.
Most think you need to trash the original stuff, but with new control arm bushings, new tight idler arm(critical), and The Borgeson box you are there for much less effort than experimenting with a bunch of geometry or fabrication.
|
|
By GREENBIRD56 - 6 Years Ago
|
Pat -
Personally, I like the idea of using the Borgeson steering box - I have had troubles with steering racks in our family vehicles. Don't know how "quick" the Borgeson will steer - haven't looked at the ratios at all.
What alignment specs did you finally end up with? And how much washer thickness behind the lower control arm to get it? I have a layout drawing where I was experimenting with the caster effect of the lower washer/spacer - but the upper ball joint pivot wasn't up where I needed it to be when using the shorter Mustang / Granada upright. They are about 1/4 inch shorter than the earlier uprights - which has a detrimental effect when looking at the camber curve.
|