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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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My red Holly electric pump died. It was factory pre set at 7 PSI. I am replacing it with a Blue Holly pump that will go up to 14 PSI and comes with a pressure regulator. The Ford shop manual shows a maximum of 5 PSI. I am thinking I should set it at 7 PSI because I had no problems with the 7 PSI pump. I am assuming the teapot holly won't tolerate anything higher. The carbs were professionaly restored several years ago before I installed them. Suggestions or comments?
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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I don't have any experience with the teapots, just '94's. But in my experience most electric pumps don't make the full rated pressure. So unless you know it made 7 lbs, I'd be suspect. I'd put a gauge on the new one and start at 5lbs. If the car runs the same (assuming the pressure will affect the float levels and therefore the mixture), I'd leave it. The new pump will have the capacity to maintain at least the 5lbs at WOT. If it seems to go lean, I'd up the pressure. But you're going to need a good guage to check the pressure at least at idle. I'm not a fan of leaving fuel pressure gauges in place. I'm always afraid of failure and a lot of raw fuel under the hood. I'd never run one in the cockpit unless it was electric.
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By Talkwrench - 7 Years Ago
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A blue will pump like a hose... For that style to last at all you should be running a return line.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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I tried two Holley red pumps. They lasted about 1000 miles each on the street. I switched to Carter and have had no problems since.
It seems like a short would develop in the Holleys. They would start blowing the fuse.
They are all street pumps. All rated for about 7psi. At the carb, there is about 4.5psi with every one.
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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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The blue pump comes set to 14 PSI. I'm not comfortable with that. Thinking 5 to 7 PSI. Still looking for a PSI recomendation for the teapots. I know 5 will work but thinking 7 would be better if the carbs will handle it.
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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Based on Charlie's experience, you probably had 4.5 lbs at the carb. With a 14lb pump, it'll hold the set pressure irregardless of flow.
I've run a number of high pressure pumps on my blower motors. I've always used Aeromotive regulators. They're not cheap, but they work. Return lines and boost reference ports. All hooked up the dyno, everything stay where it should.
Most carbs are sensitive to fuel pressure in regard to float level. Or flooding if it's too high. I'd start out low, look for a lean condition, and run the pressure up in small increments.
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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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Expalin the need for a return line. Didn't have one with the red pump and no issues. Blue pump comes with a pressure regujlator and as long as I set the pressure at the correct pressure why do I need a return line?
Thats going to be a plumbing nightmare that I don't really want to deal with.
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By Ted - 7 Years Ago
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When running Holley Teapot carbs on the dyno, I typically set the fuel pressure at idle to 5-5½ lbs. This mimics the factory mechanical fuel pump pressure. Probably doesn’t make much difference but many of the Teapot carbs I run on the dyno have a Daytona Carb Parts needle and seat which is a different design from the original parts. When running conventional Holleys on the dyno, I set the fuel pressure in the 6-6½ # range and avoid the 7+ numbers. I have found problems with aeration of the fuel in the bowls when the pressure is abnormally high. While the 4150/4160 Holleys do not appear to be float level sensitive to the fuel pressure, the Edelbrock carbs are.
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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks Ted. Do I need a return line?
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By NoShortcuts - 7 Years Ago
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Slumlord. This is related, but perhaps not relevant.
At this year's Ford Carlisle Show June 1-4, I learned that the Phase I supercharged 'Birds came without a fuel return line. One of the changes on the Phase II supercharged 'Birds was the use of a fuel return line to the gas tank.
Interestingly, NO Phase I or Phase II supercharged passenger cars used fuel return lines, just the Phase II 'Birds!
From the F code owners I had the opportunity to speak with or hear from at the Carlisle Show, I learned that the fuel return line was used on the second generation supercharged 'Birds because of the elevated under-the-hood temperatures. The use of the fuel return line provides a continuous flow of fuel AND the circulation of fuel in the fuel lines and in the gas tank. The circulation of fuel in the lines and in the fuel tank reduces the fuel temperature to the carburetor and prevents vapor lock.
Frank Stubbs drove his Phase I supercharged '57 'Bird from Washington State (?!?) for the All Ford Carlisle Show this year and was reporting having repeated vapor lock problems in traffic.
Another potential problem with elevated under hood temperatures with the E code 'Birds can be percolation, i.e., the fuel in the carburetor bowls boiling-over into the intake manifold. This may be prevented with the use of phenolic plastic spacer(s) OR oversized versions of the original 'Bird E code aluminum spacers. The oversized spacers I'm thinking of would be ~20 gauge in thickness and overhang the carburetor bases so that the sandwiched aluminum spacer can act as a heat dissipator to the under-hood air.
Food for thought. Hope it helps.
Regards,
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By Talkwrench - 7 Years Ago
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You need a return line to basically take some pressure off , like I said hook up a "blue pump" and see how much comes out. Just restricting the flow before it goes into the carb is doing no favours for the pump its still wants to pump that much but cant its why they don't last . I used one when I supercharged a car a while back and we made up a return line and soldered a jet in the return, was near the regulator if I remember.. and all you need to have is a .060 hole and you're good.
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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I didn't mean to say your pump and/or regulator needed a return line. My combination did. It was a PITA, but I did need to regulate the fuel pressure with the boost reference on a "blow thru the carb" supercharged application. The carbs were modified also.
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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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Re read the instructions for the pump for the umpteenth time and realized that the pressure regulator that came with my pump does not have provision for the return line. It requires a different regularor. I am not going to go through the nightmare of fabricating a return line plumbing.
To me the F setup with the supercharger and pressurized carb is a totally differeng animal. I have the thicker non metalic carb spacers under the carbs to hopefully eleminate the problem of too much heat to the carbs on the Bird's . I appreciate all the input. It's been an interesting and informative discussion. If I run into a short pump life I may have to re consider the return line. They put a regulator on the blue pump so you can dial down the pressure so it doen't make sense to me that doing so would trash the pump.
I had to add an electric pump when I first put the E setup on the car in '66. It would totaly run out of gas like you shut the key off when I hit 3rd gear with a totaly stock engine. The pump fixed that. I often wondered if owneres had this problem in '57?
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By Rono - 7 Years Ago
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Interesting conversation guys. I have been running a Holley Red electric fuel pump with a regulator for many years. No return line. My set-up has dual Edelbrock 500 cfm (#1404) carbs (with 1/2" phenolic spacers) and Edelbrock says that 5.5 to 6 psi is optimum, so I run the Holley adjustable fuel regulator also to knock the pressure down a bit. On my 56 Customline the fuel pump is located on the inside of the left rear frame rail with an aluminum heat shield mounted between the exhaust pipe and the pump. The pump is positioned above the axle housing to protect it. It has operated in that location for a long time without any problems until recently. After the motor warms up (15-20 minutes) I can see my fuel filter go empty and my fuel pressure drop to 0 on the gage that is mounted directly on the fuel log before entering the carbs. At first I thought my pump has gone bad although I couldn't understand why it worked fine when cold. Anyway, I replaced it with another Holley Red electric fuel pump I had as a spare and it did the same thing. Today I wrapped the inlet and outlet fuel pump lines with heat tape and will also try to wrap that section of the exhaust pipe nearest to the pump with a heat "blanket" and see if that changes anything. Recently I also switched to an "ethanol free" 91 octane gas from a new station (Sinclair) that opened near my house. Could it be the gas? I plan on running out the fuel it the tank and trying a different gas station to see if the gas is the issue. If all else fails, I guess I'll switch back to a mechanical pump. On my supercharged motor I ran an Edlebrock Performer fuel pump rated at 110 gph at 6 psi and it seemed to provide plenty of fuel during the "Break-In" period on the dyno. This issue has me really frustrated.
Rono
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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I think it is probably that the newer Holley pumps are junk. The two that failed on me, I had about 8 years ago. Both failures occurred within a year. Switched to Carter, Made in USA on the box, no problems since.
I like the Carter design a lot more. It has a bowl. I think the motor is in that bowl, providing a means to keep the motor cool, as an in tank pump would. The Holley has no effective means of keeping cool.
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By Vic Correnti - 7 Years Ago
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I am thinking the blue pump was designed to run with a regulator since it came with one. I would set the pressure as Ted mentioned for the teapots. I have ran a red one for 25 years with no regulator and nitrous, and a blue one for over 10 years with a regulator with two 600 Edelbrocks. My street usage is more short trips then long ones though.
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By DryLakesRacer - 7 Years Ago
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I left Holleys electric pumps years ago and went to Mallorys. I also found the Holley regulators were really the problem. We currently use Areo Space Products regulators with both electric (LSR engine) and mechanical (circle track engine) pumps they maintain perfect pressure at 5.5 psi the recommended pressure by our carb guy.
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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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Its interesting that Rono has his pump above the axel housing on the frame. I read the instructions again and realized that Holly says the pump has to be mounted below the level of the gas tank. Called their tec guy and explained that there is no place to mount it below the tank. He says if you don't the pump will fail. I had a cheap Carter pump mounted in the trunk for many years and no issues. Now I am trying to figure how to attach a bracket to the frame to get the pump below the tank. Difficult to do so it doesn't get hit by something and how to route the fuel lines to clear the rear suspension as it moves up and down. Someone here had problems with early failure. Was the pump mounted above the tank? My pump was mounted above the axel housing on the frame but I am not sure how long it was on the car or hom much it was actually run as the car was apart for a long time.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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My Holleys were mounted so that the inlet and outlet was below the bottom of the tank. They still failed.
The Carter can be mounted something like up to 18" above the top of the tank - double check the instructions. Much more versatile.
If the position of the pump can result in failure, I imagine there would only be a threat once the fuel level in the tank drops below the level of the pump. If that is correct, position it right at the bottom and don't run it out of gas.
Because the fittings are on the very bottom, the Holley pump will not be much lower than the tank when positioned correctly so there is probably not much more of a threat of being hit than anything else under the car.
The design of the Carter, on the other hand, could require mounting above the bottom of the tank to avoid road threats.. It has the fittings near the top.
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By slumlord444 - 7 Years Ago
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The Carter sounds better but I already bought the Holly and am in the middle of installing it. I do like the fact that it came with a pressure reguilator.
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By Kahuna - 7 Years Ago
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I have this setup on my Flathead engine in a '32 Sedan.
I have a Beldan electric pump from NAPA that puts out
a very consistant 5# pressure.
No problems
Jim
Something I just remembered & thought I'd add:
My NAPA guy (very knowledgeable), mentioned that
around & up to about 1978, Toyota trucks used
an in-tank fuel pump with a low pressure output of
around 7#. I have not investigated this any, but thought
that it might provide a reliable & economical answer to
aftermarket fuel pump problems.
Jim
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By DryLakesRacer - 7 Years Ago
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I'll throw in one more thing. I run small base Carter WCFB's on my dual quad 56 Victoria. It's a 292. 3 or 4 times a year I go to a gathering about 15 miles away by freeway. Coming home those Sunday mornings changing freeways I lay into those dual 4 barrels from about 55 mph to over 90 mph and it never misses a beat with the stock mechanical pump and 5/16" line. May not be enough but so far it's never failed me.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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slumlord444 (6/22/2017)
I had to add an electric pump when I first put the E setup on the car in '66. It would totaly run out of gas like you shut the key off when I hit 3rd gear with a totaly stock engine. The pump fixed that. I often wondered if owneres had this problem in '57?
Slumlord
I had the same problem when I made a hard run at wot going through the gears while running at wot 4 or 5 seconds at high rpm into 3rd gear the carbs would run out of gas and I would drift to a stop. Checked the usual ,fuel pump, float levels and fresh rebuilt carbs. I just learned to live with it by not making any hard high gear runs. Later I found the cure by accident. When I first put my E Bird together it was missing the trash can fuel filter and I had the stock single 4 barrel factory A/C fuel filter on the engine, this was in the early 70's and trash can fuel filters were very hard to find.
I kept looking for one because I thought they were neat looking. Much later I finally got my hands on one and installed it. Surprisingly my fuel starvation problem immediately was cured. Bottom line Ford put it on the engine for a reason.
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By Jerome - 7 Years Ago
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Sounds like you might have a flow restriction between the fuel pump suction and gas tank vent. Inspect the suction line and gas tank vent tube very carefully for pressure drop threats. Happy hunting.
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