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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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I got stranded on the weekend.
Has anyone experienced multiple failures on these units. This is my 3rd Flamethrower that has failed in 6 years. I have a stock 57 bird with the original Ignitor electronic ignition.
This Flamethrower is about 3 years old (about 5,000 miles on it) summer car. This particular one was the model that is filled with epoxy because the first 2 oil filled ones I had leaked.
I was informed that if you mount it horizontally the epoxy filled is the way to go. It was installed without the external resistor because it has an internal resistor.
I put the original coil that came with the car 59 years ago and she starts right up. I only chose the flamethrower to get the extra power.
Is it worth it?
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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You are scaring me. Mine is about 2 years old and about 5000 miles also. If this one ever leaves me stranded I'll never buy another one. I don't think there is any real performance gain and if there is it is minimal in my opinion.
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By aussiebill - 9 Years Ago
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I have 3 y block cars with flamethrower 11 series pertronix ignitions, 2 coils sideways, 1 vertical and trouble free over 12, 6 and 4 yrs.
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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It's been mentioned previously that the early units will fail if the ignition switch is left on for long periods. I can't personaly confirm this information.. I don't drive my 57 much & I don't race it, so I've just left it on points & condensor.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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Nat - If you are not looking for a performance increase - only a more trouble free (meaning no points to adjust) ignition - try using a stock type coil and resistor. I believe the early Pertronix unit you describe is simply a fixed dwell device - and while a lower resistance coil (one tough enough to last) could jump the ignition performance a bit - the original systems did work well enough to fire the engine and drive all over America.
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By RB - 9 Years Ago
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Nat, What is the part number/model number of your coil?
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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The pertronix epoxy filled coil part number is 40111.
I think I am going to stick with the stock Ford coil and the resistor. The car is running great. The exhaust smell is bit stronger but I can live with that.
Thanks
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By Rono - 9 Years Ago
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I also have been running the Pertronix for a number of years without any issues, but I'm running the Flamethrower II coil (.6 ohm) without the ballast resistor and with the Ignitor II ignition. I wasn't sure if you could run the earlier Flamethrower coil without a ballast resistor, but I may be wrong.
Rono
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By DryLakesRacer - 9 Years Ago
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I run a Pertronix 1 with their recommended coil and the stock Ford resistor. I did this after reading too many reviews that said they had coil problems. I called them and they said using the resistor would be ok but there would be less power and the coil would run cooler. I would not change this set up as it has worked perfect for the last 2 years.
If you are looking to make power and more gasoline is power contact Performance Distributors in Memphis Tn. I have been using their HEI for years at Bonneville with an optional unit called a VIP. It converts their 12v unit to 18 volts. I am up 6 jets sizes and a spark plug gap of .055. They have told me I can go up to .075" gap by continuing to add more fuel. I'm sure my current carb would smoke black on any other engine but burns clean on my racing GMC. As I'm continuing I will keep upping the jets and opening the gap. By the way I have always increased my speeds taking baby steps.. Good Luck.
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By Talkwrench - 9 Years Ago
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Hows the condition of your distributor? A lot of people put them in their old clapped out units and when something goes wrong they can be quick to blame the unit..
Im on an ignitor 3 and matching coil, been going great for a few years now.
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By RB - 9 Years Ago
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It looks like with the 40111 coil and original Pertronix you need a ballast resistor.. Input voltage to the coil should not be over 8V. It sounds like like your coil failures may be due to overheating the coil. A stock coil will fail in the same manner if the voltage is not reduced.
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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According to the instructions, it should work fine with the ignitor and no resistor. http://www.pertronix.com/docs/instruction-sheets/40111.pdf
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By Richard - 9 Years Ago
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My flame thrower flamed out after a year of use on another Ford with stock Bosh/Motocraft electronic ignition. I replaced it with a Summet 60000 volt unit for $28 free shipping. Immediately performance increase and instant start up.
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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I found this confusing when I installed my Flame Thrower coil. I called Petronix and their tech guy said to run it without the ballast resistor. It does seem to get hotter then a stock coil using the ballast resistor so it always makes me nervous.
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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I called Pertronix and they told me the same thing. Their coils have an internal resistor and was told to bypass the external resistor.
The instructions sheet also said the same thing. Doesn't that defeat the purpose by running an internal resistor and an external resistor. I tried it hooked up to an external resistor and I coudl feel the difference. Pulling away from a stop the car did not have the zip.
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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All coils have an "internal resistor." That is primary resistance. You need an external resistor with points to prevent the points from burning up and in that case, it does not defeat the purpose.
If you don't follow the instructions and use an external resistor when one is not called for, then yes it most likely will defeat the purpose because that is not how it is designed to be wired.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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You make a good point Charlie! I have been running with Petronix and an original Flame Thrower 1, coil now for about 13 years with no problems what so ever. I HAVE been running through the ballast resister though. Now you say this will keep my coil cooler, could this be the reason why I have not had ANY issues with this system??? Also, now that I am running a higher compression motor, should I eliminate the resister to give me a stronger / hotter spark??? I want performance, but I am willing to sacrifice some for the sake of reliability. (hopefully this makes sense!)
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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Royce said it will run cooler. I didn't know that. Possibly that could be why it has lasted, but I'd be inclined to run it the way Pertronix suggest. They designed it so they should know. Others seem to not have a problem so perhaps the problem is with a newer batch of coils, rather than the flame thrower coil in general.
On the subject of pertronix, I noticed no difference whatsoever when converting to the ignitor II and flamethrower II from points. No easier starts. No smoother running. No better throttle response. No better mileage. Nothing. It wasn't any worse but certainly not what was advertised. When I managed to fry the P II and reinstalled the points, it felt better with the points. That is my only experience with Pertronix so perhaps my opinion is not justified, but I am not impressed. This was also in a fresh rebuilt distributor, so there was no worn out, sloppy components for the electronic pickup to mask and provide a perceived increase in performance that can be had by simply rebuilding the distributor.
Never had a problem with the coils. I still have the flamethrower II somewhere and I have a Flamethrower with my points distributor for a backup.
I second Drylakes recommendation of Performance Distributors' ignition. Though the HEI style (che vy style) is impossible to use on a Y block, A Duraspark conversion with their Dyna Module, inferno coil, and livewires is fantastic. That's what I've had for about 5 years now, trouble free and I did notice a difference with that, much less cold natured, feels stronger from idle to about 2500. The cold driveability is the most impressive. On the coldest of days we get in Georgia, I start it and it is ready to go. With the points and Pertronix it would spit and sputter on cold days if I didn't let it warm up a bit but this is start and go. And by the way, I don't recommend that, you should still give the oil and fuel system some time to warm up but it is an option.
Mileage may have increased but i did a carb swap before I could check so I don't know how each contributed to that. That combo did get a 2mpg increase.
However, there is a significant difference in price between that and Pertronix. I think it boils down to the old saying, "you get what you pay for."
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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I agree with Charlie. Many independent tests have shown no increase in HP, performance, mileage etc. People who claim big gains when switching from points usually happened because the point distributor wasn't set correctly or worn out before. The only performance gains were at really high RPM were problems with point bounce/dwell change occur in a point type system.
From what I have read from automotive electrical engineers and this is a condensed version, all coils are 8 volt. A 6V system is really 6-8 just like a 12V is really 12-14.. A resister is needed to bring the voltage down to approx 8V. If a 12-14 coil was actually made it would be twice the size. So we have two types of 12V systems for coils, external ballast resistor like most early Fords before they went to resister wire, and an internal resistor type coil. If you check an external resister it gets HOT, so now you put the resistor inside for a internal resistor coil like the Flame Thrower and you have added the extra heat to it. I would prefer an external ballast resistor type coil but I don't think Pertronix makes one..
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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The limitations of the "pointless" inductive ignitions lies with (1) the power handling capability of the transistor that switches the coil on and abruptly off (to fire the plug) and (2) the ability of the chosen coil to handle the amps and "charge" during the period of dwell. The original "Ignitors" - don't have a very capable transistor, the dwell (time "on") is limited to something like the points supplied, and if the primary resistance of the coil you use is too low, then the transistor cooks. The conventional style coils (like the one my Ford came with) have very limited insulation capacity - and the oil "cooling" system for the windings had its roots in the days of horse and buggy. Won't work well without a ballast resistor to protect it.
The better grade of coils - now in current production - are of "E" core construction (E describing the visible chunk of steel the windings are wrapped on). I have several FOMOCO versions around - one of them came on an F-150 I found at the parts yard and had 165,000 miles on it - they are about 1.2 OHMs primary resistance, are fed from a resistance WIRE in the ignition (1.45 OHMs or so) and work nicely with one of the Duraspark II triggers (electronically set from the factory at the exact dwell used on the points of a late 50's / 60's distributor). The Ignitor would work virtually forever with one of these - if you used the OEM style resistance wire for a total OHMs of 2.65. Performance would be better than stock - but the E-core coil would be there for all to see. I think that is the issue many guys have with going to the new systems - that are really pretty good parts - but it looks too new for my '56.
When GM came out with the "transistorized ignition" for the Corvette - it incorporated a wonderful device. A microchip that could check on how many AMPs were flowing through the coil's "On and Off" transistor and control the heating. Adjust the dwell between low and high rpm and such, a nifty gadget - now widely copied by everyone in the world. When you get a patent for something - you have to explain it for all to see - that's the rule. GM used this chip technology in the controller for the HEI type distributors - and the Ignitor III has this same brainwork - it saves the switching transistor and works magic with a low OHMs (.50) coil. I believe that Pertronix now has a low OHMs cylindrical coil for use with the Ignitor III - and that completes the package - makes it possible to have a stealthy electronic ignition for an engine that will accept it.
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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Hey guys I appreciate all your comments & suggestions. I put the original mustard top coil coil that came with car 58 years ago and running it with the original style resistor and leaving the ignitor in place. The car is running very well. For the sake of keeping things simple I will run it this way. The only difference I see is that it takes a few more crank revolutions to start the car. With the Flamethrower I barely heard the starter. The performance seems the same.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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An interesting note, now that I have Vicky up and running, I removed the ballast resister and now I have a definite miss at lower RPM? Checked all wires, all seem ok, wonder if the module has developed a memory in the last 13 years under lower voltage through resister? Now that I am running without the ballast, the higher voltage may be causing havoc in the module or possibly damaged it? I have sent an email to Petronixs and I am waiting for a reply. I am also going to put the ballast back in and see if that helps. I will keep all informed!
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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I would expect a cam with the specs of yours to have a miss at low rpm. Make sure you are not confusing that.
If it was ok immediately after removing the resistor and has developed into this, then you may be onto something.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (5/6/2015)
I would expect a cam with the specs of yours to have a miss at low rpm. Make sure you are not confusing that. If it was ok immediately after removing the resistor and has developed into this, then you may be onto something.
Ok Charlie, now you have peaked my interest! Please excuse my ignorance, but are you saying that the miss may be normal due to the lumpy cam? It runs fine once you are over 2000 rpm. I was going to re-install the ballast resister to see if that makes any difference. I just noticed on the inaugural drive, when cruising down the highway in 5th gear, it seamed to have a miss (like it was on 7 cylinders) when cruising below 1500 rpm. So this may be normal and I may be looking for a problem that doesn't exist, is what you are telling me?
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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Yes. Now that you have specified the RPM range, my bet is that it's simply the cam. Go ahead and reinstall the resistor just to see, it's free to try and by all means, go through and check things, but I think there is probably not a problem.
A really good ignition may help. In my case, running manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance helps, but it's just the nature of the beast and it's not going to go completely away. You may consider a shorter rear gear to go along with it.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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Charlie,
I put the ballast resister back in and when I got up over 4000 RPM it felt like the ignition shut off! I am starting to think that you may be right. I can't afford a new distributor right now, but think I will step up to a new Petronix II or possibly III (any suggestions?). As per the vacuum advance, I am not running one. My engine builder Rob, told me he has my motor set up at 36 deg. full timing and NOT to run a vacuum advance as per how he degreed in the cam? Does that make sense to you?
Thanks
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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Well, I would listen to a guy who builds engines professionally before I listen to a guy who does this stuff as a hobby (me).
But it seems odd to me that you can't run the vacuum advance. I disconnect it when racing but for the street I would expect it to be good. Ask him more questions about that. Maybe there is more to it and not running it is the short answer.
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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Canadian Hot Rodder (5/8/2015)
As per the vacuum advance, I am not running one. My engine builder Rob, told me he has my motor set up at 36 deg. full timing and NOT to run a vacuum advance as per how he degreed in the cam? Does that make sense to you?
Rob. With the vacuum advance properly hooked up, low end throttle response will be improved as well as fuel mileage. I’m all for the vacuum advance being hooked up assuming the existing distributor curve and carburetor are tuned correctly for it. The other key to this is having a vacuum advance chamber that’s adjustable so that the amount of additional ignition timing being added during cruise rpms can be tailored to your combination. If the distributor has already been re-curved to have all the timing come in at a much lower rpm, then adding a vacuum advance system could potentially have too much ignition timing available under cruise situations. Surging during cruise is a good indication of this.
At idle, the timed port within the carburetor throttle bore must be above the throttle blades. If the port is level or below the throttle blades at idle, then there will be too much ignition advance at idle. While the port being below the blades at idle is indicative of a performance camshaft with narrow lobe centerlines, a vacuum leak, too small a carburetor, simply too high an idle speed, or any combination of these, there are several fixes for this. One is to simply open up the secondary blades more so that the primary blades can be closed some. Another fix is drilling holes in the primary throttle blades so that those blades can also be closed up more thus putting the timed port above the blades rather than below. Before doing any modifications to the carburetor, it’s important that any potential vacuum leaks have been taken care of.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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Rob - There are lots of ways to tune an engine - and the use of a full mechanical advance is one of them. But........... the additional advance provided by a vacuum pot can enhance fuel economy - and everyday utilization of your outfit. The adjustable vacuum pots - and even the older models that can be set with shims - can add a bit of "cruise" advance and your engine will like it. here is an example:
My 312 outfit has 10º initial advance - a reasonably quick "curve" to end at 35º and only 7º available from the vacuum pot at high vacuum (severely limited - but there). My engine and carb is set-up to run on live manifold vacuum for use on the street. So when it sits at idle in the driveway, the advance is at 17º (summed advance from both systems) - and manifold vacuum is 20" Hg. If I disconnect the vacuum for the purpose of a full throttle test run - as Charlie must do with his combo - the engine drops idle vacuum, gets a bit of Y-block thump to the exhaust - and the water temperature rises. Raising the throttle when the pot is connected - immediately drops advance to the mechanical curve and keeps it on that curve - until the throttle begins to close and manifold vacuum rises again at a cruise condition.
When using a full mechanical system many guys have the initial jacked up to say 15º-16º and the max limited to 35º-36º. The higher initial set point gets the manifold vacuum up, keeps the motor from idle heating too badly - but loses some potential cruise vacuum that could reduce fuel consumption. If you aren't running a steep gear - and gas quality has your full advance point pushed out to near 3000 rev's - and the local speed limit keeps you at 2500 rpm on the way to the drive-in - the extra 7º could be nice to have.
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By cliffs 56 lincoln - 9 Years Ago
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my pertronix failed after 4000 miles went back to points i did not use the resister now i am back to stock
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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Strange how many failures I have read about over the years yet so many people have run them for years without a problem. I have had one in my 66 Mustang for 10 years without a problem. The one in the Y is the first I have used with a Flamethrower coil, I'm using 12-14V straight to the Ignitor and coil, no resistor.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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Too all:
it definitely looks like I have an issue with the Petronix! Miss got excessively worse until my 56 just sputters after running for about 10 minutes or so. Car starts right up cold and after it warms up it starts to miss progressively worse until it stalls. Other day driving back from town, miss got real bad, popped the hood and almost burnt my hand on the casing of the Flame thrower coil! Got the car home, tried a few spare, used coils and it will barely keep running now!
I have checked all wiring and all appears ok. I have ordered a new Petronix III kit with the rev limiter and hope this works. I would love to actually go with an MSD distributor & box, but unfortunately that is out of my budget now, so lets hope this new Petronix works! I figure after 13 years of trouble free operation, my Petronix I doesn't owe me anything!
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By Talkwrench - 9 Years Ago
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I think the Pertronix 3 is probably better as it has multispark throughout the entire rev range MSD ign do not . Make sure your dissy is in top condition and buy the matching coil at the same time.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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Thanks Talkwrench,
Just purchased a Petronix III along with the matched coil. Hope to install today, I will let everyone know ho it works! (I like the fact that it has a built in rev limiter also!
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By Dave V - 9 Years Ago
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I've been running the original Pertronix on numerous engines for years. Last year I switched to a Pertronix II on my 57 312 and noticed a big difference in performance with hotter coil and wider plug gap. Last night it went out on me. Lucky I had the original in the trunk that I was able to install and get home. Again noticable difference in performance. Are there any other options that would perform better that I could go with and still use the 57 distributor? Dave V
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By Dobie - 9 Years Ago
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There's the Accel points eliminator kit people seem to like. The only drawback to it I can see is it has a unique rotor whereas the Pertronix uses the stock rotor.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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The main downside of the typical "points replacer" unit is its location inside the rear mount Y-block distributor. Can be very hot while doctoring on the side of the road.
The next downer being the location of a spare part .....if that's the problem (trigger unit). Gotta carry a spare unit of that type - or know how to refit the points.
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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GREENBIRD56 (5/14/2015)
The next downer being the location of a spare part .....if that's the problem (trigger unit). Gotta carry a spare unit of that type - or know how to refit the points.
In addition, in order to use some of the points replacers to their full potential, a different coil is required. Regarding swapping points back in:
In the case of Pertronix, either of the Flamethrower coils should get you home. You should have absolutely no problems with a 3 ohm Flamethrower unit. However, the flamethrower II and III coils are a no go for points. The flamethrower II will get you about 10 miles before the points are toast, maybe a little farther if you have real good quality points. (Guess how I know that one). The Flamethrower III has even less resistance, so I doubt you'd get much farther than your driveway.
Remember to take that into account if you carry points around as backup. You may want to add a points coil to that stash of backup parts (or several more sets of points).
Dave V (5/14/2015)
Are there any other options that would perform better that I could go with and still use the 57 distributor? Dave V
Not unless you are willing to spend a lot more money. You can convert your stock distributor to a Duraspark trigger. If you search "Duraspark" you should find all sorts of threads about that. Once that is done, you can use just about any ignition box on the market. And, many ignition boxes can use points as the trigger, so you don't necessarily have to convert the distributor, and that makes it real easy to convert back to points, if needed.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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Well installed the Petronix III yesterday and so far all is well! After adjusting the timing to a full 34 deg. (NO vacuum adv) engine runs smooth (other than the lumpy cam! lol) and pulls hard through all gears. I left the rev limiter set at the factory setting (5500 rpm) and it worked well! Punched the throttle on a rolling start and tires went up in smoke! I hit the rev limiter and my tac dropped like a stone. shifted to second and lit the tires up again!  Lets hope all stays this way!!!
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By slumlord444 - 9 Years Ago
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I have been running the original PenTronix with their coil on my '57 for many years with no problems. I was not aware that the PenTronix III had a rev limiter. How do you set it? I was planning on adding an MSD box with the rev limiter to get a rev limiter. This may be a simpler route to go. Am I on the right track? And how do you set it?
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By Dave V - 9 Years Ago
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How much voltage does the Duraspark coil put out? Dave
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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Rob, Since your engines horsepower peaked at 5600, start with a rev limit around 6000 and play with it probably between 6000 and 6500 until you get your shifting figured out for racing.
Dave, No idea what the Duraspark coil puts out, but if you want something better, it doesn't matter, because you do not want a full Duraspark setup. You want to use the trigger in the distributor and an aftermarket box, coil, and wires (MSD, Mallory, Performance Distributors, etc.).
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By Jim Rowe - 9 Years Ago
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I have experienced a problem with the old style ( short neck ) Flame Thrower coil. However the "New improved" version has a longer neck no more spark arch from coil wire to 12 v post.
I would have a misfire that was noticeable at 1500 RPM. New coil no spark arch no problems.
Jim
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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Dave V -
The coil voltage rating is that of the coil insulation - not the actual delivery of an inductive spark system. On induction - nonsupercharged - it only takes about 10,000 volts to fire a plug in a "compressed" cylinder. Having a coil with a 50,000 volt insulation rating is nice - has a "factor of safety" of 5. But a coil with a 35,000 or 40,000 volt rating would probably work just as well. at delivering the 10,000 volts.
The spark energy is a Volts x Amps sort of thing - and if you say all of the induction ignitions are at 10,000 Volts - then the Amps will be based on the summed resistance of the coil primary and ballast resistance. On the factory Duraspark II set-up, the coil primary is about 1.2 Ohms and the resistance wire from the ignition is about 1.4 for a sum of 2.6 total Ohms. They operate (factory Duraspark controller) at the same fixed dwell as the single point distributor - so the potential increase of performance is pretty much limited to what Amps you get at those Ohms versus the old coil and ballast resistor. This is only an approximate description - but....... it helps a bit with understanding the pricinple.
These later model control systems with amperage controls (Pertronix III and the HEI type) - have coils of only .5 Ohms (no ballast resistor) - and a variable dwell control (electronic switch) that leaves them "ON" to just safely short of meltdown. They maximize Amps at every rpm - not just a fixed delivery at any speed.
Hope this helps a bit .......
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By Dave V - 9 Years Ago
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Steve Sorry I havn't replied sooner but I was at a car show all weekend. I searched and found your procedure for setting up your own HEI system with a Ford Duraspark trigger, GM 4 pin HEI controller and GM V6 .45 ohm coil. I would like to keep the car a little more original looking so would my Pertronix Flamethrower .6 ohm coil work ok with your other trigger and controller? Dave
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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Dave,
You're not likely to get anything better than a Pertronix II or III, and maybe even I with oem ignition parts or any combination of oem parts. The major benefit to Steve's system is that you can get replacement parts at any autoparts store, or out of any junkyard.
If you want to maintain a stock look, then Pertronix or a similar points replacement module is your best bet, which you already have and I would change nothing. I certainly would not spend additional money for something that may only be as good and does still require some sort of fabricated mount or box for the module that will further detract from a stock look.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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Setting the rev limiter on the Petronix is very simple. First off it is factory set at 5500, so if you don't want to go past that, just leave it alone (trust me, it works!!! LOL). To cahnge it however, you can do it on a bench with a 9 volt battery attached or once it is installed in the car, bay simply turning the adjustment screw on the module and counting the blinks. ( I copied the procedure below)
REV-LIMITER SETTING PROCEDURE
Remove distributor cap and rotor. 1.
Turn the ignition key to the ‘ON’ position. Do not try starting the engine.2.
Turn the Rev-Limit dial clockwise until it stops. Turn the dial counterclockwise until it 3. stops. A slow blinking of the LED indicates that the setting procedure has been initialized and that the Rev-Limit can be set.
Turning the dial clockwise sets the Rev-Limit. After turning the dial, pause and watch 4. the LED for verification of the Rev-Limit setting. Long flashes indicate 1000 RPM’s and short flashes indicate 100 RPM’s. For example, 6 long flashes followed by 2 short flashes means the Rev-Limit is 6200 RPM’s. Continue turning the Rev-Limit dial until the desired Rev-Limit is reached.
NOTE: Leaving the Rev-Limit dial in the full counterclockwise position disables the Rev-Limiter.
Let the LED sequence thru at least three complete cycles. This verifies the correct set5. ting and prepares the unit for permanent storage of the Rev-Limit.
Turn the ignition key off, this signifies to the Ignitor III that the Rev-Limit procedure is 6. complete. Note: The Ignition key MUST be turned off or the engine will not start.
Your rev limit is now set and will not change until you go through this procedure again. 7.
Re-install cap and rotor.8.
NOTE: Setting the rev limit may be done effectively and easily on a bench or table. Connect the module to a 9-volt battery as shown in figure 2. Then follow the setting procedure outlined above.
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By slumlord444 - 9 Years Ago
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After reading all this and doing some additional research I plan to replace my old original Pertronix, coil, and factory resistor with the Pertronix III, coil, and remove the factory resistor. Plan to keep the old setup in the trunk as a spare just in case of a failure. I was planning on just adding a MSD 6 AL box to get the rev limiter. This will give me the same thing basically and I can keep the stock appearance. As always, great information here. Now if I can just find the time to get the engine and transmission back in the car.
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By Canadian Hot Rodder - 9 Years Ago
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Make sure to set your timing after you install the Petronix III. Not sure if it was due to the positioning of the sensor on the module (only fits one way) or the fact my old Petronix was going the way of the dinosaur, but originally had my timing set to a full 36 deg. (without vacuum advance) on the dyno. Once I installed the new Petronix, I was now at a full 50 deg. (still without vacuum advance) !!! Re set timing and I am now running a full 34 deg. of timing. this is where my car seems to run the best.
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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Hey guys. I originally started this topic and have been reading all these variations of set ups. I am currently back to running the car with the stock coil and resistor and the igniter 1. The car runs well but there is a difference in acceleration when pulling away from a light. The acceleration is not quite as sharp as with the flamethrower. The strong smell of exhaust is what I hate the most. I smell the fumes in my clothes when I come into the house. I have leaned out the Holley 4160 as much as possible. I will probably go back to a flamethrower. My question is what version of flamethrower/igniter. Is it worth moving up to flamethrower/ igniter 2 or 3. What is the advantage adaptive dwell? More importantly do I hook up the external resistor? If I hook it up to the external resistor does it affect the voltage going to the plugs. I am assuming that I burn these coils out because I have bypassed the external resistor. Yet instructions and tech support tell me to bypass the resistor.
A bit about the car.The car is bone stock, with fordomatic trans, the distributor was rebuilt about 3 years ago. The vacuum is pulling about 19.5 inches. I do not want spend anymore than I need to if there is not an advantage going to the igniter 2 or 3. I really want avoid burning out another coil.
On another note I have the original carb the car came with. It was a Holley 4150 (390 cfm). After having it professionally rebuilt and taking back 3 times, the car ran very rich. The car would continue run even when I turned in the right side mixture screw. I got fed up and put on a new 4160 (465 cfm). Could the additional 75 cfm cause the rich exhaust smell.
Thanks guys.
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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I have been running the original Ignitor and Flamethrower coil without a resistor for a couple of years now without a problem but I never feel secure with electronic parts. I just ordered a Pertronix II and matching coil and will carry the old one as a back up.
The extra CFM shouldn't effect your running rich condition, is this at idle or at all rpm?
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By slumlord444 - 9 Years Ago
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On the carb issue I would try smaller primary jets. Go down in small steps and see if it is any better. You are still under 500 CFM and that should not be too much carb.
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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Nat Santamaria (5/18/2015)
....On another note I have the original carb the car came with. It was a Holley 4150 (390 cfm). After having it professionally rebuilt and taking back 3 times, the car ran very rich. The car would continue run even when I turned in the right side mixture screw. I got fed up and put on a new 4160 (465 cfm). Could the additional 75 cfm cause the rich exhaust smell.
I’ve run extremely large carbs on small engines without any pronounced richness at idle. If the carb is originally designed for a large cubic inch engine, then the idle circuitry may have to be tweaked for the smaller engine but carburetor cfm rating by itself is not a determining factor for if the carb will be rich or not at idle. Here’s a picture of a 1050 Dominator on a Y which idles just fine. The carb ultimately may be too big when fully opened but that’s another issue.
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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I just pulled all the plugs for an inspection. All plugs vary slightly in colour but 4 of 8 are a nice tan colour indicating a clean burn. 2 more are slightly lighter tan. The #5 cylinder is extremely sooty & black and #2 is a darker brown. I took the temperatures at the exhaust manifold and #5 was reading about 392˚ while the other cylinders were in 490 - 510 range. I decided to check the plugs as I had developed a misfire.
The Hotter Pertronix Flamethrower coil masked this problem. Gas mileage is poorer and stronger smell of exhaust after going back to stock coil.
Any ideas on correcting the #5 ? maybe a bad plug or wire?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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Nat - Do the "slightly" different plugs match the pattern of "every other one" in the firing order? When using the factory "cross H" intake, it will help indicate which side of the carb is the richer of the two. As built, the split manifold will feed four cylinders from one primary bore - and four from the other.
On the primary side of the carb - above the throttles,at the airhorn there is an idle bleed orifice on each side. If there is something causing one to flow (air) freely and not the other - the two throttles will not tune the same on the mixture screws. Sometimes you can clear them by blasting carb cleaner down the orifices. I've also found problems with the primary metering block gasket - which is a bit more involved.
Could number 5 have lost its exhaust pushrod?
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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If you have one cylinder that isn't firing/burning like the rest I would start with a compression check first...
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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Hey Greenbird. The Intake is the stock manifold ECZ-9425-B. The plug reading are as follows
#1 Tan
# 2 Slight darker tan
#3 Tan
#4 Lighter Tan
#5 Very sooty
#6 Tan
#7 Tan
#8 Lighter Tan
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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Nat - In the "cross H" design scheme of the intake manifold, cylinders 1,4,6,7 are fed from the same throttle - and 2,3,5,8 from the other. When I first got my car and drove it home - pulled all of the plugs - 1,4,6,7 were nearly fouled (and the others all looked nice). Took a minute or two for it to register that the black plugs shared the same throttle bore. The '56 had the antique teapot carb - and I soon fitted the engine with a later manifold and ignition to escape .......
Do you have a "spare" plug wire to put on #5 for a trial?
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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Hey thanks Steve for your response. A mechanic friend of mine are now going through the process of elimination. So far we replaced the distributor cap that was worn and had carbon build-up and replaced the rotor and replaced the #5 plug. With those changes alone when I started it up heavy carbon blew out the back.
Then I temporarily installed brand new stock mustard top coil. Again results are still better. The misfire is still there but significantly less.
The coil I had in there is the original one that came with the car when the car was restored in 1993. I believe that the misfire at #5 cylinder problem was masked a bit by using the flamethrower coil. With the Flamethrower the #5 plug would be more in the normal colour range and all the other plugs would be a bit brighter than tan. The next item we will check is valve lash on that cylinder. He also suggested replacing the ignitor with a new ignitor. If I go back to using flamethrower coil I will hook it up to external resistor despite what Pertronix tech support advises.
Thanks
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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We did a compression test on this cylinder and it was 130 lbs. This fouling problem is not new but I have been using a flamethrower coil for several years and probably masked the problem due to the higher voltage and higher burn temperatures. I want to go back to the Flamethrower however the lack of reliability scares me. If I use the Flamethrower 1 with the external resistor does it affect the 40,000 volt output and if so by how much? Until we sort out the problem, could I run a hotter plug in that cylinder? I am running Autolite Copper 46 right now. I am currently using a Stock Ford Mustard top coil. What would the output voltage be on that coil using the external resistor? Is the Ignitor 2 and Flamethrower 2 any more reliable and is there any performance advantage?
Thanks
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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While 130psi is toward the low side, it should run fine. You also need to have the throttle wide open for the test. If you don't, then the pressure will indicate lower than it should. However, the compression pressure of one cylinder alone is not very meaningful. What is the pressure of the others and how do they compare?
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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That is the only plug that is misfiring and sooty. All the rest are tan in colour and are firing. I have replaced the plug, checked the spark plug wire, Distributor cap, Rotor. All Good.
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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If you want to do it right, you need to check the rest to see how it compares and narrow down the possible causes. If they all happen to be about 130psi, then compression probably is not the problem. If the others are higher, then compression could have something to do with it. The compression pressure of one cylinder is practically meaningless unless you have something to compare it against.
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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How did you check the plug wire? Internal breaks that can cause intermittent problems are hard to find. I usually swap one from a good cylinder and run it for a while then recheck the plugs and see what each cylinder is doing, just a thought.
I installed the Petronix II and Flamethrower II coil this morning and will keep my original as a back up. As far as performance I can't tell the difference between the two or a good set of points adjusted with the proper dwell..
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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I just installed a 4th Flamethrower coil (epoxy filled) in the stock location without a resistor. It got hot, became hard to start and sputtered all the way home. It lasted 1 day. I put my original 59 year coil back in car as soon as I got home & runs fine.
So much for a HIGH PERFORMANCE COIL. Its more like a NO PERFORMANCE COIL. I dont get it
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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I don't get it either, something isn't right but I have no idea what would cause that with yours.
I ran the original Pertronix and flame thrower coil without a resistor for two years and it was a used unit I got from a friend and he had it on his car for maybe five years before giving it to me. Thats why I just put in the Pertronix II and matching coil. I've only put about 50 miles on it so far but no problem yet.
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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Nat. Without making me go back and read through all the posts, which Pertronix unit do you have; I, II, or III? My experience has been that the Ignitor I requires a resistor while the II and III do not. The Ignitor I also requires a 1½ ohm coil whereas the Ignitor II and III units requires coils with less resistance. The factory coils will be in the 1½ ohm range. If you have a factory resistor wire on the car in conjunction with another resistor, that could be a problem. Likewise running a resistor wire along with a Ignitor II or III unit with the incorrect ohm coil.
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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Hey Ted
I am running the ignitor 1. I have the stock external resistor on the car. I followed the instructions on installation and have spoken to their tech support. The ignitor 1 and flamethrower 1, (1.5 ohm coil) they say to bypass the external resistor. If I run the flamethrower with an external resistor the coil is cooler but the performance is not great. I am currently running a mustard top coil with external resistor and the ignitor 1 and the car is running well. However this past week the #5 spark plug started to foul badly out of nowhere. It is a dry fluffy black soot. I replaced all the plugs. Changed the #5 plug wire, cap and rotor, and reset the timing at 10 degrees. The valve clearance was also checked and are spot on. The #5 plug is not fouling but is a bit darker than than the rest. The cylinder is running about 100 degrees cooler than all the other ones. The compression is about 125 lbs the others 150. Checking the vacuum it was reading 19 and steady needle. It is generally running rougher with a slightly erratic idle and then strangely it will idle quite smoothly and then idle rough again. The exhaust smell is also bit stronger than usual. I hope this is not a ring issue or I will have park it.
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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Nat. Have you checked that your car doesn’t have a 'hidden' resistor wire going to the coil? Beyond that I’m clueless as to what your 'Pertronix specific' coil problem could be.
Regarding the lower compression check on the #5 cylinder, I’ll suggest doing a leak down test. That will help to verify if you have a ring, exhaust valve, intake valve, or combination of these making for the lower compression. Performing the leak down test on all cylinders will give you some good baseline numbers.
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By Nat Santamaria - 9 Years Ago
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There is no additional hidden wire going to the coil. I have the red ignition wire joined to the red ignitor 1 wire and plugged into the bottom of the stock resistor. I have a black wire connected to the top of the resistor going to the negative side of the coil.
When I was using the flamethrower1 coil the I had red ignition wire joined to the red ignitor 1 wire and going direct to the + side of the coil and the black Ignitor wire connected to the negative side of the coil.
Do you know what the stock mustard top coil voltage output is?
Thanks Ted
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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"I have a black wire connected to the top of the resistor going to the negative side of the coil"
Shouldn't that be the + side? The negative side of the coil should be going to the black pertronix wire.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 9 Years Ago
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Maybe someone asked this a ways back - but the Red wire to the Pertronix module is supposed to be getting full battery voltage to feed its electronics. So you've ended up with it on the "high" side of the coil resistor to get the full 13.5 volts from the ignition switch, Correct? The + side of the factory coil then gets the stepped down voltage from the low side of the resistor. The Pertronix controllers do not like low voltage - period.
The negative side of the coil is wired to the control module (black wire) - and when the system is operating, it is switching the coil ground on and off - just as the points did. The plate to which the Pertronix controller is mounted must have a very good ground to the engine block. Be sure about this - it can cause all sorts of problems as well. The additional resistance that might exist between the point plate and the block, can also be reducing voltage inside the controller. On the Duraspark outfits - I add a specific grounding wire from the distributor to the block.
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By 2721955meteor - 9 Years Ago
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why all the noise about the problem,the cure is the forddura spark conversion,with the later 57 disy it is verry simple.go to the local wrecker ,get a302 duraspark box and coil with the dist. you have all the parts for30 cn. mark and i have converted 3 so far. the 1 on my 57 ranchero works great,increased the plug gap. the only isue was forgeting the wire from solenoid to the coil,as pointed out by ted the ford ignn has no run power at the start position. instant startand beter go. Repair parts where ever you go
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