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By DryLakesRacer - 9 Years Ago
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I did a search but did not find the stock lobe lift for any of the stock camshafts. Does anyone have them for the different years and engine sizes? Thanks
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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By the book, the 1957 272, 292, and 312 4V V8 camshafts had 0.272” lobe lift on the intakes and 0.285” on the exhaust.
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By 314 - 9 Years Ago
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there are only 2 stock cams 57 and all the rest.57 is272 int,285 ex.which according to ford gives 400 int and 420 ex with 1.54 rockers.the other cam gives 360 with 1.43 rockers and 384 with 1.54.i dont have the lift for this cam itself.
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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From the 1955 Service Manual, the 272 & 292 V8 camshafts had 0.264” lobe lift on the intakes and 0.262” on the exhaust.
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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Ted, is there anywhere here in Waco that can grind a cam to that stock 57 spec?
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By DryLakesRacer - 9 Years Ago
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Thanks that's what needed. JD
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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chiggerfarmer (1/4/2015)
Ted, is there anywhere here in Waco that can grind a cam to that stock 57 spec?
Tom. I’m not aware of any cam grinding equipment remaining in the Waco area. I have toyed with the idea of having Isky make a reproduction ’57 grind though as the E4 ground on 112° lobe centers is still just a tad big on some applications. The E4 on 112° lobe centers is still worth 10-15 HP over the factory ’57 grind so it’s tough to go backwards sometimes.
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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What about the bigger E and F code cam? Or was that over the counter and not factory?
Oh, in the Eichman book, .290 and .290 lobe lift.
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By Y block Billy - 9 Years Ago
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If this works from my phone i will post a cam spec paper published by Mummert some time ago!
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By Y block Billy - 9 Years Ago
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It worked but you will have to turn your laptop/monitor on its side to read it. Damn phones!
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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My knowledge of camshafts other than stock is very limited, but is that E4 Isky cam that you mention approximately the same as the Ford original stock one?
I'm not afraid of Isky brand products, nor am I trying to replicate the completely stock engine, it's just that I want a silky smooth idle that I have never found anywhere except with stock cams. I have one of the replacements that are still available but the general consensus is that the 57 and earlier are better. I had a 57 with the 312/245 HP engine and it ran strong and idled ok, but I have never had the opportunity to see one of those E4 cams in action. Something tells me it's not the same?
copied this from the Isky online catalog
http://www.iskycams.com/onlinecatalog.html
301444 E-4 2000-5000 .425 .015 260° 216° 108°
SOLID .425 .015 260° 216°
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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Chigger: For some reason, virtually all std replacement cams for the Y-Blk are based on none 57 specs. (earlier & later) As Mummert has noted, they are essentially truck cams! If you want dead smooth idle, that's the one.. Note however that Ted's comments on the E4 spec it with a 112 LSA, not with Isky's original 108* I'll presume it will idle somewhat better with 112* but you'd need to clarify on that. .. Why the 1957-D code cam has not been available has been a head scratcher? Seems silly! As far as I know it had a good idle but may not have been dead smooth. However, if I recall correctly (?) Mummert had some reservations about what he called the "jerk" rate on the 57 cam. Apparently that had something to do with ramp acceleration rates on it.. Again, clarification needed there... After 1957 & the intro of the F.E. series big blks, the Y-Blk was religated to being their base engine with max economy in mind, hence the return of a very mild cam.
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By Ted - 9 Years Ago
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While the Isky E4 ground on 112° lobe centers calms down the idle, it still has a rumble in the exhaust note. Here’s how the two camshafts compare to each other:
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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Thanks guys, looks like there are lots of variables in choosing camshafts. I will just use the NOS one I already have (B8A-6250-C) which I believe is probably the first of the watered down version that eventually became the 60's truck cam. This (B8A) part number would have come about in or around 1958, and was changed at least once more before y-block production ceased. I wonder if cam specs changed each time or just part numbers?
I was the proud owner of one of those 57 312's for a few years in the 60's and I don't remember noticing anything about the idle characteristics, but I was young and smooth idle might not have been as important to me then as it is now. Only thing I remember is how I liked the performance of that car at the time.
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By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago
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You could just take a used and worn stock 57 cam and have it reground to original specs.
There would however be some differences if the regrind was measured against a virgin cam.
That's probably the only way to get you as close to an original grind as possible.
Oldmics
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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Tom: You could go to Mummert's site & check out his selection of cams.. While I tend myself to stay essentially stock (my 57 car is licensed as a "stock" collector car), if the engine was coming apart, it's later non 57 stock replacement cam, wouldn't be going back into it! Your leaving a fair anount of power on the table & I'm not sure why, to just get a dead smooth idle? And, also badly reducing the great exhaust sound of a Y-block!
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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Thank you all for the help, I will revisit Mr Mummert's selection and think about it. I appreciate the suggestions.
Cheers, Tom
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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Ted (1/8/2015)
While the Isky E4 ground on 112° lobe centers calms down the idle, it still has a rumble in the exhaust note. Here’s how the two camshafts compare to each other:
The info Ted posted in this thread about '57 Ford O.E.M. cam specs was the most helpful I've seen for comparing and considering numerous aftermarket camshaft offerings. As some Forum members have said, I would be happy with the availability of a '57 FoMoCo camshaft clone for some engine applications I'm seeking to rebuild or the engines of acquaintances I'm trying to help with their rebuilding efforts.
To follow-up on Paul's suggestion, the technical specs for John Mummert's camshaft offerings are on this page of his web site
http://www.ford-y-block.com/camcards.htm
My impressions of what Ford and numerous aftermarket replacement part suppliers have offered for y-block camshaft replacement for years is strictly plain-Jane or utilitarian. Addressing Tom's question regarding Ford's part number system, IF the production specs for y-block replacement camshafts have changed over the years, my understanding is that the 'interchangeable' part would not REQUIRE or trigger the issuing of a new Ford replacement part number.
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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Tom; A footnote re the replacement stock cams, if you insist on using the one you have.. It was discouvered some years ago, by J. Mummert I believe, that the oil groove in the journal is undersize from original specs. It needs to be machined a bit deeper, to help avoid top end oiling issues..
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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Thank you, yes I have read about the oil grove needing some help. I also see where there is a procedure to groove the block to accomplish same. That idea seems to appeal to me whenever I have a bare block to work with.
Wish I knew what "jerk" rate and ramp acceleration are?
I also did not know there would be a difference in a "regrind" cam and a "virgin". I assume then that regrind just means grinding a different configuration to an existing lobe without adding any new metal? So it would result in the lobe shape you wanted, just smaller? With that in mind, it would probably take a cam core from a 57 to regrind in order to come anywhere close? Does anyone know if all the 57 cams were better than the later ones or is it only that 245 HP one? What about the earlier cams from 55 and 56? I don't find specs for these older cams anywhere.
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By charliemccraney - 9 Years Ago
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Tom,
The picture Bill posted shows specs. The Eickman Y Block book also has a chart of cam specs.
My guess, which means I might be totally wrong, about regrinds is that different grinders grind the cam in different ways. While there may be a precise duration at .020 or .050, there is not a precise spec between those and between .050 and the center line, so the shape of the lobe can be altered while having the same specs on paper. So while a grinder can duplicate the stated specifications, they probably cannot duplicate the exact profile and that accounts for the difference.
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By miker - 9 Years Ago
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I didn't see John's comments on "jerk". But in physics, its distance-velocity-acceleration-jerk-snap. So I assume it's something to do with the change of acceleration of the lift as you move along the ramp of the cam. This would make Charlie's guess correct. With the cam Dr. and a computer program, you'd probably get all this info. My differential calculus is from the days of slide rules, so I don't understand any of this as it applies to camshafts. It's likely more of a concern for long duration high lift racing cams, valve train harmonic, valve float, than it is for street units.
A few months back when I was picking out a cam, either Ted or Greenbird sent me this article. It's one of many out there, and there's a lot of debate even among experts.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0607phr-camshaft-basics/#__federated=1
Sorry to get OT of the OP
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By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago
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Properly done regrinds patterened after an original stick specifications will have the same lift and centerline.
Since material is being removed from the camshaft ,the grinding procedure creates a smaller base circle.
The smaller base circle effects the acceleration and closing ramps which in turn effects the jerk rate (and more).
Usually there is a minimum amount of material removed from the stick to get the lift back to where it once was.
Since every stick is worn differently the regrind procedure for each stick requires different amounts of material to be removed to get it back to original specs.
This differing amount of removed material from a worn stick creates a new , different from O.E.M. base circle.
That new reground base circle geometry starting point then leads to the creation of new acceleration and closing ramps profile different from stock. These new profiles are unique to each regrind.
Again only a small amount of measureable differences but enough so that it should be mentioned.
That would be some of the differences between a regrind and a virgin camshaft.
Oldmics
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By LordMrFord - 9 Years Ago
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I had regrinded cam from stock stick. It had quite odd grind, 8mm lift and 290/300+ degree in zero lift but .050 degrees was same what about 285 stick would have.
Couple of noses worned out soon.
I learned that, burnouts are not a proper way to drive a new cam in.
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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Chigger: re your question about other early years cams. Apparently the specs vary a bit, but most are similar to the last replacement cam & are all milder than 1957. As far as is known, all regular car 272,292 & 312 cams in 1957 used the same specs, hence the higher power ratings. It's unfortunate that spec cam isn't readily available off the shelf.
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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I now think it doesn't really matter to me which stock cam I use, it's just me being picky to wish for the very best performing "stock" engine. I have a NOS Ford cam with a B8AZ number, which should have originated in 1958. I will try to find out what the differences are.
Many thanks
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By FORD DEARBORN - 9 Years Ago
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Greetings to all: I too have been on a hunt for the EDB cam used only in 1957 part no. B7A-6250-B. It had a unique grind, with intake lift of .272 and exhaust lift of .285 making it easy to identify with V-blocks and a dial indicator. It worked extremely well in my 57 312 with it's higher compression ratio, 3.56 gear in the rear and a cruise-o-matic. It also produced the most throaty coolest intake sound only unique to a y-block among many other attributes. That being said, I just finished a lengthy conversation with Ken at Oregon Cams and they indeed have the lobe masters produced from an original Ford cam if anyone is interested. Ken also confirmed 114* LSA ground 3* advanced. They don't have one on the shelf at the moment but will produce one for me in about 2 weeks very reasonably priced. I'm making a 312 out of my 64 F100's 292 with G heads and 1.54 rockers and this cam. Hope this helps.....JEFF
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By FORD DEARBORN - 9 Years Ago
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Greetings to all: Hopefully in about 5 weeks I will be assembling my engine with the "EDB" cam from Oregon Cam. Will put the degree wheel on with a new timing chain set and see precisely where everything is at. I'll post my findings as soon as I can.
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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Thank you for that information Jeff. That is exactly what I want also. I eagerly await your results. Thanks
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By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago
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Jeff
As you mention
"It had a unique grind, with intake lift of .272 and exhaust lift of .285"
However according to the information that I have (Eickmans book) the lift on the stock B7A 6250-B stick comes out as
.260 Intake
.272 exhaust
A bit different than the specs you have. I have never seen the LSA specs and advance information published anywhere.
As for the 58 replacement/detuned camshaft the general comparison would be reduced lift .252 along with reduced rocker ratios (a return of the1.43 ratio) utilized on the 58 and up engines.
That combination would make for a real low performer engine .
It would be interesting to see if the Oregon cam grind is actually the same as the original B7 6250-B.
Ask Ken if he can share measurement information on his camshaft at the points of
.015 on the I.O and the I.C. events
and
.013 on the E.O. and also at .016 on the E.C. event
That would tell if the ramps are the same as Fords original cam or if its something different.
.
Oldmics
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By FORD DEARBORN - 9 Years Ago
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Greetings to all: In the Eickman book on P. 34, the specs under the B7A-6250-B cam, .272 intake and .285 exhaust lobe lift is listed. On P.33 the valve lift is listed correctly using 1.54 rockers minus .018 lash which is .400 intake and .420 exhaust valve lift. Looking at the information published by John Mummet posted by Y Block Billy earlier in this thread it shows .270 & .283 intake & exhaust lobe lift respectively. I think John listed actual measurements so to be within .002 is close enough. The same table also shows 114* LSA. I have a very worn EDB cam that I measured about a hair over 113* LSA with it in V-blocks and a degree wheel on it. Picking out the 2 best lobes on my worn 57 cam agrees with the published lift. Also, the 57 Ford shop manual shows the same lobe lift. So I believe at least the above specs (lobe lift and LSA) are true to the above cam and the data at Oregon Cam. The Eickman book P.34 also lists the valve timing events of our cam which agree with whats listed in the 57 shop manual. I will see if I can get more info from Oregon Cam to pass on but they seem to know of the cam we are discussing. I hope not to confuse this post but addressing the the de-tuned cam B8A-6250-C used from 1958 on, P.33 in the Eickman book doesn't list lobe lift. Rather, shown valve lift of .360. However, doing the math in reverse using the 1.43 rockers, the lobe lift would work out to .264 and that's putting back in the .018 lash. I have personally degreed a de-tuned cam purchased from John and it is .263 lobe lift. I really hope this helps as I'm sometimes not the greatest explaining things in text. JEFF..........
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By Oldmics - 9 Years Ago
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Jeff
Your right on the money.
That pesky lash thing always bites me in the ass.
Would be excellent of Oregon if they can build the original sticks.
Oldmics
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By FORD DEARBORN - 9 Years Ago
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Greetings to all: I finally received the cam from Oregon Cam Grinding 2 days ago that is to be a copy of the 1957 ''EDB" part number B7A-6250-B cam shaft. After viewing the pedigree paper supplied with the cam and doing some basic checking of my own, it appears to be the read deal. With out splitting hairs it's with in 2 or 3* duration and .001 or .002 either way. The only spec I can't verify is the 3* advance that is to be ground in because my engine block and crank is still in the machine shop. However, the folks at Oregon Cam are aware that this cam is not ground straight up. I found out about Oregon Cam from Tim McMaster's (The Y-Block Guy) web site so I trust it's a quality product. When I'm able to start assembling the engine, I'll post the valve timing events then. So, to all who are interested in this cam, it is available. Hope this helps, JEFF............
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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Jeff: Nice job you've done! The on going issue with the 1957 EDB camshaft apparently not being available, has been a source of annoyance to some for a long while. On behalf of all those interested, thanks!
Further info. Oregon Cam Grinding is at; 5913 NE.127th Ave. #200, Vancouver WA 98682 U.S.A
Ph. 360-256-7985 Fax 360-256-7465 e mail orcam@pacifier.com
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