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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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I've hijacked a topic on 5752-113 head porting (sorry CJ), so i thought i'd open a new topic on these headers.
(To see CJ's topic with some info on the headers )
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic99008.aspx
The headers on fleabay are AU$275 plus post, pretty cheap for Aussieland
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=281238932933&fromMakeTrack=true
They appear to be copies of (or may even be) Sanderson Headers...
http://www.sandersonheaders.com/Sanderson-FTB1-Ford-Y-Block-Header-Set-for-1955-57-Thunderbird.html
This has probably been answered before, but while i'm here,
Will the TBird headers fit the full size Fords, specifically 1955,56 ?
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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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Got a reply from the vendor, he doesn't know about fitment, but they are a Sanderson design, except for the flanges.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Yet they are a tad better being Stainless.
And we all give and share on this site, right.
What is so close to the engine of the sedan??? I would think the Tbirds are tighter every where?
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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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Here is a link to the Rex headers.
http://www.rexhp.com/fuelblocks.html
As you can see, they are way different to the TBird style, and twice the price.
.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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I see they are a tuned length system, but they look great.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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I think the Aussie headers are AWESOME and I may try them on my coupe project. They are similar in design to the Sanderson headers, but those headers are plain steel cost $345 uncoated and over $500 with the ceramic coating. Also, the Sanderson headers state that they are NOT to be used with header gaskets. This makes me think that they may be a 1 application header in that once they get torqued down and "blueprinted" to a particular set of heads, they could possibly leak when put on a different set of heads.
I have a set of Red's Passenger Duel Tube headers on my 56 Customline. they only have a 2" collector and even that flange comes right next to the steering shaft. The Sanderson design looks like it dumps further forward. May be just what I need
Rono
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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I went back and read the seller's shipping options and he states that he does not ship internationally. I e-mailed him (waiting for a response) and told him of the potential market that awaits him in the states and wondered why he has this policy. Would any of our down under Y-Blockers care to act as middle man so I could get a set of these shipped to the states??
Rono
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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Rono (1/27/2014)
I went back and read the seller's shipping options and he states that he does not ship internationally. I e-mailed him (waiting for a response) and told him of the potential market that awaits him in the states and wondered why he has this policy. Would any of our down under Y-Blockers care to act as middle man so I could get a set of these shipped to the states??
Rono
Generally despite all of us wanting hard to get parts, either shipping someting big from US or from Aust, the costs are v/expenive and deter most hopefulls, Any one considered why these are so cheap?
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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aussiebill (1/27/2014)
Rono (1/27/2014)
I went back and read the seller's shipping options and he states that he does not ship internationally. I e-mailed him (waiting for a response) and told him of the potential market that awaits him in the states and wondered why he has this policy. Would any of our down under Y-Blockers care to act as middle man so I could get a set of these shipped to the states??
RonoGenerally despite all of us wanting hard to get parts, either shipping someting big from US or from Aust, the costs are v/expenive and deter most hopefulls, Any one considered why these are so cheap?
Just to put things in perspective, unless you can get someone to carry a set across when visiting the US , then as is, the shipping costs are prohibitive, Example ! working on Aust post Max weight of 20 kgs/ 44 lbs, then shipping cost would be $269.00 AU. Add that to ebay sellers item cost and you are in $500.00 + area, less dollar devaluation your way, multiply x .88 = $440.00 ? usd. This is general exaple and may vary.
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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slick56 (1/27/2014)
Got a reply from the vendor, he doesn't know about fitment, but they are a Sanderson design, except for the flanges.
Alan, they are for LHD cars,
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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AussieBill;
I wonder why there stainless headers are so cheap also, but even if shipping, tariffs etc. were $100.00, it would still be a very good deal and be a lot cheaper than the Sanderson Headers.
Rono
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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Rono (1/27/2014)
AussieBill;
I wonder why there stainless headers are so cheap also, but even if shipping, tariffs etc. were $100.00, it would still be a very good deal and be a lot cheaper than the Sanderson Headers.
Rono
My guess is they are chinese made headers for US cars? in my last post how does that cost compare to the sanderson ones in same style, material etc, not sure why you use $100.oo as shipping, when its closer to $250.00
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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AussieBill;
First, I had no idea shipping from down under would be about $250 to the States. That being said, the Sanderson Headers in plain steel (on Ebay) are $345.00, ands Ceramic Coated are $515.00. So, that would make these stainless headers about $465 with shipping to the States (if the vendor shipped here). Also, the Sanderson headers do not include the collectors or any hardware. If they are Chinese made, that could be a quality issue. That would be something I would like to know.
Rono
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By dbird - 10 Years Ago
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I can't comment on the passenger car headers, but Sanderson headers for my Thunderbird came with collectors and bolts to mount to the head. No bolts for the collectors or gaskets for the collectors. Also, of there is a Good Guys or similar meet where they have a booth, they give a show discount. These stainless headers do look like a nice copy of the Sanderson headers though.
Don
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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To start with the weight of freight will be less than 20 kg, closer to 5-10 Kg. Plus shipping via boat will be cheaper.I can look into it if you would like.
Oh and I ment the Rex pipes "aren't" tuned length, etc.
I can see a mild difference from Saunders to the stainless sets, though they look fairly even length.
I would expect the similarity of design may have a patent issue if the Stainless guy sells to the States?????
I'd say he is making them him self and having a supply of steel handy.
If i can help with shipping I will.
I would think the position of the pipes further forward would be better, firstly the paint is gone at the fire wall of my TBird from the stock manifolds (the heat riser is mostly to blame for this) therefore getting the pipes away from this situation is an advantage for anyone and allowing the pipes to cool too.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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The seller responded to my question and said I could check on the postal rates using the Austpost calculator using Sydney2000 and a 10KG shipping weight. I did this and selecting Express Post International, the cost would be $189.50 to Zone 4, U.S. I think they ship to the closest major city to my zip code and then the parcel is mailed off to my zip code. Sea Mail delivery would be cheaper, $114.20, but has no tracking or signature on delivery. I told the seller (John) that if he could confirm this shipping cost, I would be willing to go for it if he would. It still would be a better deal than the Sanderson headers. BTW, I did ask if the headers were made locally and if the collectors were 2&1/2". Waiting for a response.
Rono
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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Rono (1/28/2014)
The seller responded to my question and said I could check on the postal rates using the Austpost calculator using Sydney2000 and a 10KG shipping weight. I did this and selecting Express Post International, the cost would be $189.50 to Zone 4, U.S. I think they ship to the closest major city to my zip code and then the parcel is mailed off to my zip code. Sea Mail delivery would be cheaper, $114.20, but has no tracking or signature on delivery. I told the seller (John) that if he could confirm this shipping cost, I would be willing to go for it if he would. It still would be a better deal than the Sanderson headers. BTW, I did ask if the headers were made locally and if the collectors were 2&1/2". Waiting for a response.
Rono
I too had contacted john re post etc and was getting back to me on actual weight, if you read back to my 1st post i was trying to give example of o/seas freight from here bssed on max weight allowed.to make some comparison of prices.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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I got a response back from John. He says the actual weight of the headers is 8Kg. He has 45 different designs at present and more coming all the time. He does manufacture the headers in China, but his design is different than Sanderson's. He uses 10mm laser cut flanges with gaskets. He sounds really discouraged in the trade inequality between the States and Australia. He says the shipping cost from the States to Australia is 1/2 of the cost from Australia to the States. He still does not seem willing to ship to the states.
Rono
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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Rono (1/29/2014)
I got a response back from John. He says the actual weight of the headers is 8Kg. He has 45 different designs at present and more coming all the time. He does manufacture the headers in China, but his design is different than Sanderson's. He uses 10mm laser cut flanges with gaskets. He sounds really discouraged in the trade inequality between the States and Australia. He says the shipping cost from the States to Australia is 1/2 of the cost from Australia to the States. He still does not seem willing to ship to the states.
Rono
Thanks for update, have you confirmed what vehicle these fit? bill.
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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Rono (1/29/2014)
I got a response back from John. He says the actual weight of the headers is 8Kg. He has 45 different designs at present and more coming all the time. He does manufacture the headers in China, but his design is different than Sanderson's. He uses 10mm laser cut flanges with gaskets. He sounds really discouraged in the trade inequality between the States and Australia. He says the shipping cost from the States to Australia is 1/2 of the cost from Australia to the States. He still does not seem willing to ship to the states.
Rono
Ro, i have sent you email. bill
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Well guys I bought a set today.Fingers crossed they are any good.
I will let you know when I get them how they look.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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Bill;
Never got your e-mail. Please try again. I have not confirmed what these headers will fit, but I'm hoping they will work for my 37 coupe project.
Rono
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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CK and his 55Tbird (1/27/2014)
What is so close to the engine of the sedan??? I would think the Tbirds are tighter every where?
I've wondered this myself so I looked into it. I don't have a Tbird so I had to rely on internet images. On the sedans it is often stated that the motor mounts interfere with the use of headers or say “Rams Horn” manifolds. This is not the case. The interference is with the upper A arm shafts and the upper spring pocket. There is 1 1/2” space between the tips of the spark plugs and the upper A arm shaft. On the Tbirds the Upper A arm appears to be ahead of the manifold. I strongly suspect that these Aussie Y block headers will not work on sedans.
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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lyonroad (1/30/2014)
CK and his 55Tbird (1/27/2014)
What is so close to the engine of the sedan??? I would think the Tbirds are tighter every where?I've wondered this myself so I looked into it. I don't have a Tbird so I had to rely on internet images. On the sedans it is often stated that the motor mounts interfere with the use of headers or say “Rams Horn” manifolds. This is not the case. The interference is with the upper A arm shafts and the upper spring pocket. There is 1 1/2” space between the tips of the spark plugs and the upper A arm shaft. On the Tbirds the Upper A arm appears to be ahead of the manifold. I strongly suspect that these Aussie Y block headers will not work on sedans.
Been trying to suggest this from the start! as the description is vague as to what they actually fit, i think they are t bird ones copied from sandresons and as sanersons dont make sedan ones , and as such doubt they,ll fit sedans. but stand to be corrected.
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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Rono (1/30/2014)
Bill;
Never got your e-mail. Please try again. I have not confirmed what these headers will fit, but I'm hoping they will work for my 37 coupe project.
Rono
Thats a shame! i went into a bit of detail. i live about 2 hrs away from seller, you can have them shipped to my address and i,ll post them on to you, my zip is 2318. See my reply to lyonroad today , i doubt they,ll fit in 37 coupe or56 sedan. regards bll.
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By glrbird - 10 Years Ago
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If you look at the pictures of Ron's car with the engine in, looks like they would work to me.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic81637.aspx?PageIndex=3
Sure would look goooood on that motor.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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lyonroad (1/30/2014)
CK and his 55Tbird (1/27/2014)
What is so close to the engine of the sedan??? I would think the Tbirds are tighter every where?I've wondered this myself so I looked into it. I don't have a Tbird so I had to rely on internet images. On the sedans it is often stated that the motor mounts interfere with the use of headers or say “Rams Horn” manifolds. This is not the case. The interference is with the upper A arm shafts and the upper spring pocket. There is 1 1/2” space between the tips of the spark plugs and the upper A arm shaft. On the Tbirds the Upper A arm appears to be ahead of the manifold. I strongly suspect that these Aussie Y block headers will not work on sedans. Ah because the engine is recessed back in comparison.
I can measure for you in a few weeks when i have the engine back etc.
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By Woody - 10 Years Ago
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I am in Sydney area so happy to take my car around to check sedan fitment if the seller is agreeable. I have sent him an email. Just looking at them I suspect they would not fit a Customline/ Mainline engine bay but you never know....
Cheers, Woody.
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By OzMainline - 10 Years Ago
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Looking forward to an outcome with these headers! Not often we in Oz get a good deal on Y block parts.
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By Woody - 10 Years Ago
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I made a template to scale and can confirm that these headers do not fit a sedan, or to be more specific they won't fit my 59. Not even close.
Cheers, Woody.
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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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Bummer.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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You could ask the guy to have his manufacturer to make a stainless set of the ones that do fit.
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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[quote]CK and his 55Tbird (2/4/2014)
You could ask the guy to have his manufacturer to make a stainless set of the ones that do fit. [/qu
Been trying to suggest from the start they are t bird ones and are just COPIES of what he sent the manufactures, he doesnt make headers to my knowledge? but no one takes any notice.
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By snowcone - 10 Years Ago
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Well Bill, I was taking notice of you but I just wanted you to be "wrong" so I could get a set of sedan headers at a great price 
Looks like keep the old crossover pipe and single system a bit longer.
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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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snowcone (2/4/2014)
Well Bill, I was taking notice of you but I just wanted you to be "wrong" so I could get a set of sedan headers at a great price Looks like keep the old crossover pipe and single system a bit longer.
I heard ya too Bill, but, like Gary, was hoping...
the eternal optimist,
Al
.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Check these baby's out. I got them this afternoon. Aussie stainless headers.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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 The box is 400 x 530 x 150 mm and it ways 8Kg
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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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They sure look good CK
(ps. our American friends work in pounds and inches )
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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They do look GREAT! I am envious  I still have hope they could work for the coupe.
Rono
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By glrbird - 10 Years Ago
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Ok CK, what was the finial cost to get them to your house?
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By glrbird - 10 Years Ago
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Ck, just realized you are not in the states, sorry
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Here is a thought. I'm heading over early June, going to be landing in LA first then driving down to San Diego, probably the next day. If someone wanted to send a set to my address, I would have room in my luggage to carry one set. Not sure what your customs would charge in tax/duty when I get there.
May work for someone LA, San Diego area or I could drop off at John Mummert's if he was happy to hold them. John might want to look at them as well. I don't really want to mess about reposting when I get there.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Could you bring a manifold back from John????Just joking!
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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My bags are always maxed out with my stuff on the way back.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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I can imagine !
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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How much were the headers delivered to your door?
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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$250+$25 shipping.
I got them with a day or two once sent.
He has some nice mufflers to all polished 304 stainless, you should check his store on ebay. start with Y block
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Keep us posted on fit with lots of photos. I think I can put them on my car and still keep it on concessional licence as Tri Y headers where available for T Birds in 56. Do you know what wall thickness the tubing is?
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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 1.2mm
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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 Squared to the flange.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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The welds look neat. Interesting how one bolt hole is chamfered and the other is ground. Have you put a straight edge on the flanges to check see if they are flat? When do you plan on installing then? I would be interested to see how well they fit.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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I agree on the welds! Very nice TIG welding. Ian, I sent you a PM.
Rono
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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I've got a set of these stainless headers here now that I will be taking to the US with me and have been just checking them out.
The exhaust flange openings measure about 35.5mm/1-7/16 tall and 37.5mm nearly 1-1/2 wide. I was wondering what the standard port sizes were and what are the port dimensions on the aluminium heads?
They appear to be almost an exact copy of the Sanderson headers except from the pictures I've seen Sanderson's have the round tube coming all the way to the head face were as these have been formed to suit the square port. They even use exactly the same tube configuration into the collectors as the Sanderson's. Was wondering if there was a purpose to the configuration because looking at them and measuring them up against the car it seems they could have been constructed differently so as to more closely equalise the primary tube lengths.
Any thoughts?
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By 5d6fairlane - 10 Years Ago
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Aluminum head ports are 1.137 x 1.350.
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By slick56 - 10 Years Ago
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[quote]ian57tbird (3/5/2014)
I've got a set of these stainless headers here now that I will be taking to the US with me and have been just checking them out.
Watch out you don't get mugged - a few people are interested in those headers
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Good one slick.
hey Ian, have you checked them with a magnet?
My set has some attraction over the pipes, yet the flanges have none.
What would you guys think of this?
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By aussiebill - 10 Years Ago
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CK and his 55Tbird (3/6/2014)
Good one slick.
hey Ian, have you checked them with a magnet?
My set has some attraction over the pipes, yet the flanges have none.
What would you guys think of this?
Same as you ! different quality stainless tube, Thats why they are priced so, but will be ok for a far wihle. You often see on boats with stainless bowrails and brackets, brown staining, which is lesser quality stainless.
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Strange, I just checked the magnetism and both the pipes and flanges have none on these. The steel must be from a different batch. I don't think different grades will be to much of an issue unless the waves are splashing over the front of your car. Different grades have different hardness and can be more brittle.
Ron the measurements you were after are, for the left side they are about 9in out from the face that goes to the head and about 7in to the centre of the collector and for the right it is about 7-3/4in out and about 6in to the collector centre.
By the measurements for the ports on the aluminium heads the 1-1/2 tubing still has a larger cross section. I was expecting the ports to be bigger than that.
Slick it sounds like I might have to pick up a Saturday night special when I get out of the airport, to protect the headers.
Anyone got any thoughts on how the primaries go into the collectors, could it be related to firing order or is it just haphazard design?
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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aussiebill (3/6/2014)
CK and his 55Tbird (3/6/2014)
Good one slick.
hey Ian, have you checked them with a magnet?
My set has some attraction over the pipes, yet the flanges have none.
What would you guys think of this?Same as you ! different quality stainless tube, Thats why they are priced so, but will be ok for a far wihle. You often see on boats with stainless bowrails and brackets, brown staining, which is lesser quality stainless.
As an example 409 stainless,which is common in heavy duty exhaust tubing is magnetic while 304 stainless, also common in exhaust components is not. Both are far more corrosion resistant than stock aluminized steel. 304 stainless will stay shiny much longer than 409.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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Thanks Mark! That's good to know. I'll try to keep my grimy fingerprints off them!
Rono
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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No problem Rono, you should be able to easily polish off any finger prints if you do it before you burn them on. Did you pick up a set of the Aussie headers?
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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I bought a set but had them shipped to Ian. he is coming to California this summer and will bring them with him.
Rono
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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Sounds good, did you have to buy Ian a new suit case?
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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ian57tbird (3/6/2014)
Anyone got any thoughts on how the primaries go into the collectors, could it be related to firing order or is it just haphazard design?
I've wondered this myself. I seem to recall that Ted knows what it is. I did notice that the Sanderson Headers use a different sequence than the Rex Performance headers. For aesthetic purposes one would think that Rex would have swapped the position of the #1 and #2 tubes. Although if its not a performance issue it cold be a fitment issue.
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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lyonroad (3/6/2014)
[quote]
I've wondered this myself. I seem to recall that Ted knows what it is. I did notice that the Sanderson Headers use a different sequence than the Rex Performance headers. For aesthetic purposes one would think that Rex would have swapped the position of the #1 and #2 tubes. Although if its not a performance issue it cold be a fitment issue.
I don't think it is for fitment, especially the right side, there is nothing to interfere with on the TBird. For aesthetic purposes bringing the centre ports to the outside and the end ports closer to the block would have come close to equalizing the primary tube lengths. On the right they mixed it, one out one in. On the left the centre tubes are close to the block and the end ports go to the outside. Not sure how important equal length is on a shorty header. The back tube on the left takes a strange path but I think that is due to restrictions on how close a mandrel bender can put bends close to each other as they are one piece tubes, not welded.
Just ordered some very expensive luggage, I'm sure Ron said he was paying for that.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Thanks Mark.
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By Rono - 10 Years Ago
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I should have know that was coming
Rono
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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I finally fitted my headers.I will up load some photo's tomorrow.
Its good to have the engine back in at that too.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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 Or this way????
Turbo style!
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By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago
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CK what sort of clearances do you have from the column and chassis? Do you have power or non-power brakes? From what I can see the only thing that looks like not working is the brake line from the master cylinder down to the brass block on the chassis, looks like it would have to be rerouted.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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Being mine is manual, I have to put an S-bend around the clutch mechanism or move the mechanism. undersided as yet.The headers finish over the the chassis rail pointing down and in on a 45*.
So if I removed the clutch mech. both sides would work into the X member with a couple of 45* bends a side.
Is there any after market replacement clutch systems available that you know of? Hydraulic etc.
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By CK and his 55Tbird - 10 Years Ago
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I'll take some better photo's on the weekend in the day light.
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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CK and his 55Tbird (3/20/2014)
Is there any after market replacement clutch systems available that you know of? Hydraulic etc.
Here is what I put together for my Club Sedan.  
The slave and master cylinders are Wilwood from Summit. 260-1333 and 260-6089 respectively.
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By pegleg - 10 Years Ago
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Nice looking work, Mark
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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Thanks for the kind words Frank (and all the great insights you provide).
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By CK - 10 Years Ago
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The mods. do look great. And i'm envious of the booster fitment, I'm pretty sure it won't fit the tbird quite the same.The clutch, well I've left the std. mechanism and worked the exhaust around it. No photos as yet though 2 1/2" and hooker aero-chambers through the X-member to the diff. Very much looking forward to hearing its note! |
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By lyonroad - 10 Years Ago
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CK (5/1/2014)
A nd i'm envious of the booster fitment, I'm pretty sure it won't fit the tbird quite the same.
Thanks CK. The aluminum plate at the back of the booster is an adapter I made that raises the booster a couple of inches. The booster and master cylinder now clear the exhaust manifold by a lot. I had to add the plate because the two push rods that came with the booster didn't fit. One was too long the other too short.
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By CK - 9 Years Ago
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Hi guys
Curious how others went with these headers?
I've found the bolts continually loosening up and thinking of getting a better set which may hold tension under such conditions.
Any suggestions?
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By ian57tbird - 9 Years Ago
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I have not installed mine (not sure if I ever will) but you might consider getting some stainless star washers or a bit of Loctite. I think you have the alloy heads so make sure they are in deep enough. I would also be tempted to go to bolts with a larger head and a star washer. The bolt they supply are not very good quality, if you check the threads you can see that they have a course finish and probably not good for alloy heads. What they supplied is 3/8UNC x 1" long and you could go to 1 1/4" long if you needed with a full 9/16AF head. The only hole that you might struggle to fit 1 1/4" long is the second hole back on the left bank, 1" with a 9/16 head fits as I tried it but it was close, maybe 1 1/8 long might fit if you needed a bit more length.
Stainless changes size more with temperature changes so that might help to work things loose as well.
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By 62bigwindow - 9 Years Ago
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I just talked to him via email and he said he would ship to the states for $150 aud. Not sure what the conversion rate is but it might not be a bad deal.
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By aussiebill - 9 Years Ago
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The conversion rate is your way, aussie $ is about 77 cents US.
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By 62bigwindow - 9 Years Ago
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I am glad I went through and reread the post.I was getting ready to buy a set from him and seen that they wont work on the sedans. Thunderbird only. Bummer, the price was pretty good with the echange rate.
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