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By pegleg - 11 Years Ago
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skygazer (4/8/2013)
skygazer (4/7/2013)I have avoided ethylene glycol because I've read that pure water actually removes heat better per unit volume (higher specific heat) than anti-freeze, even though it boils at a lower temperature. I will try to look up a reference and repost. Wikipedia: "Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 3140 J/Kg C (0.75 BTU/lb F) three quarters that of pure water, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water." For whatever that's worth. Seems that folks are having good luck with 50/50 mix in their t-birds. Oh, and I've also read that the thermal conductivity of copper is better than that of aluminum. From what I can tell, the reason to use an aluminum radiator is because the metal is slightly stronger, and allows "larger" tubes that are longer in cross section, thus providing more surface area. I have a clean, stock copper radiator.
I suspect you'll find the advantage of aluminum is more based on cost and weight than strength. There are so many varieties of aluminum alloy that a generality about strength is not accurate.
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By pegleg - 11 Years Ago
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to back up what Steve said on the initial, I run 15 on my F code. Remember it has a lower static comp ratio than the 'Bird, but I had to really back off the idle when I went from factory setting. My pass car will idle all day in 90 degree humid Indiana summer days.
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By pegleg - 11 Years Ago
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Steve, Based on the fact that the pump works by drawing water out of the rad by centrifugal force, one has to wonder how restricting the output side with the plate would help flow? I got better results on my pumps by closing down the impeller to body tolerances than any other "trick".
However to cloud the issue, John Mummert felt like the plate worked! I don't have a 'Bird so I really don't have anything to experiment on. I do kinda think that Doug thrasher's got a point with the radiator comments, and a fan shield has to help.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
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This chart shows how the usual anti-freeze mixtures change the boiling point most of us don't get too terrified until the rascal boils over.
The use of a large flow capacity thermostat can help a t-bird a good bit more than a standard engine (without the pump spacer) so make sure you check that out. The "high flow" t-stat sold by Mr Gasket for a big block MOPAR will help. The flow restrictor in the bypass hose (mentioned by Ted) just about always shows an improvement in water flow to the radiator. Use a brass 3/8 nominal size pipe plug with a 1/8 - 3/16 orfice drilled through it. Insert in the short hose under the thermostat housing - otherwise the bypass is 5/8 tube "short citcuit" for hot water.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
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The birds use both the 2/3 -3/4 size radiator and the efficiency reducing front spacer - makes them a bit different than the sedan versions. So a bit more touchy about cooling system components........ Most guys I know with stock birds have a story or two to tell about overheating issues - easy to get things out of whack.
Skygazer what is your spark advance at idle? My outfit runs 10° initial and due to the use of live manifold vacuum on the vac advance - an additional 7° comes in for a total of 17°. This will drive the hot idle temperature downward. The Y block engine likes this high initial - and when people use a full mechanical system - or a ported vacuum system - they usually end up with a considerable initial built into their advance curve. See if your engine responds well to bit more advance at idle - just do a test and don't rev the rascal too high while you check it out. A "re-curve" might just be some of the answer....
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By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
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Rob - The birds have half a shroud, top half of the radiator only - the bottom is open. so it doesn't perform as you would expect a shroud to behave. There are outfits that sell a bottom half to add-on and complete the cover, but I haven't tried one to report the difference in cooling performance.
Skygazer - Does your system give a stable temp without the aux. fan? If so, how high over ambient does it get?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 11 Years Ago
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On Thunderbirds there is a open spacer between the water pump and front cover - moves the pump forward toward the radiator about an inch or so. The spacer creates a huge space behind the impeller - makes it spin in a large very open cavity. Destroys any hope of pump efficiency - in my opinion. There is available a stainless baffle that sandwiches between the impeller and the open cavity to try and cut down on the volume of the swept space. Seems a reasonable idea.....
Accounts vary on whether it works or not. CASCO (t-bird parts supplier) has run a test you can find on their site - and the test shows the baffle failed to solve any problems. They got better results by (1) using a free(er) flowing thermostat and further (2) by using a modified pump impeller that sweeps more of the opening in the spacer.
Baffle didn't do anything for my outfit at all - waste of labor and gaskets. By comparison, the larger flow volume thermostat showed a change for the better on my infrared temp gun right away. It also helped instantly to put an orfice in the bypass tube between the manifold outlet and the pump. Cuts down on a huge "short circuit" that allows for quick warm-ups - but then never ceases to re-circulate the max temp hot water.
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By MoonShadow - 11 Years Ago
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Do you have any temperature reducer in the water? I would add some 40 Below or something like it. Antifreeze has a higher boiling point than water but the additives help. I think you may have just stressed your cooling system on the first outing. Stop and go traffic will do it every time. Having the water level down even a little can cause changes in behavior. Also, I bet it you had brought your RPM up to 1500 or higher it would have helped. If the idle is correct it should be ok. Just make sure you are full of water next time and see what happens. Chuck
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By MoonShadow - 11 Years Ago
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The additives I mentioned like "40 Below" are a lubricant and cooling additive for systems not using glycol. They have no affect that I've seen to antifreeze filled systems. Chuck
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By DANIEL TINDER - 11 Years Ago
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[quote][b]gekko13 "ethylene glycol conducted heat significantly better than water alone"
Do you have a reference source for that statement? Everything I have ever read re: coolant efficiency has labeled water as the best.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 11 Years Ago
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I assume you thoroughly cleaned out the waterjacket passages in the block during rebuild? Did you also test the thermostat before installation? Even a new one can be defective/sticky. The CASCO waterpump with blade extensions is another option, as it is proven/tested to pump more coolant. A fan clutch would likely help at idle speeds only if you installed an undersized pump pulley. A modified engine usually means the radiator needs to be in top condition or upgraded.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 11 Years Ago
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[quote][b]skygazer (4/7/2013)
I have avoided ethylene glycol because I've read that pure water actually removes heat better per unit volume (higher specific heat) than anti-freeze, even though it boils at a lower temperature.
Redline 'WaterWetter' is another choice. It lubes the pump, provides corrosion protection, and changes the surface tension reducing steam pockets. Something to consider if you want to run straight water, especially if you get dieseling when the motor is hot, but not boiling. They claim a 20-30 degree reduction in coolant temp.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 11 Years Ago
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Hoosier Hurricane (4/8/2013)
While speaking of radiators, remember that paint is an insulator. Heavy coats of paint on the fins look nice, but greatly reduces heat conductivity. My friend who had a radiator shop many years ago used a very thin coat of flat black paint of some kind on his repair jobs.
I have a spray can of special black radiator paint (from Eastwood) that I had planned to use on the alum. rad. I bought, but then soon realized that the fins actually LOOK black unless viewed straight on. So, I plan to only paint the top tank & sides (in order to maintain an OEM look), but realize now I should likely use a (high-temp?) gloss black enamel instead of the thin/flat specialty paint. The better durability/appearance would likely overshadow any negative insulating factor concerning the tank, etc. alone, when using a modern upgraded aluminum radiator, especially since the motor is not really full bore modified?
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By DANIEL TINDER - 11 Years Ago
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FYI: For what it's worth, I switched to propylene after a stuck thermostat caused a similar (to skygazer's) incident when I was in an expressway traffic jamb. Though I never boiled over (running the heater/revving the motor), the end result was a leaky headgasket (orig. OEM steel). While propylene is not quite as efficient a coolant as ethylene, it DOES offer the benefit of a self-sealing effect, and won't ruin your bearings if it gets into the crankcase. The manufacturer recommends a 70% solution for most efficient cooling. I have been running it for years now with no coolant pressure (thus no more leaking) and no overheating.
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By pintoplumber - 11 Years Ago
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Doug, my 1st year at Columbus was 2005. I remember you soldering your radiator that year.
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By Doug T - 11 Years Ago
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Like many others with bird heating issues I have tried most of the fixes. One thing I noticed in the course of all these things with my car was a change in the radiator. My car sat in storage for a long long time and when I first restarted it in 2000 it had the original stock radiator in relatively good condition. The car did not overheat then. However sometime later the rad developed a leak and so I had new copper core put in it. When I got it back there was a baffle in the top header tank missing. Since it was fall and there wasn't a problem. However the next summer the car started overheating. As much as I could see the baffle was a horizontal sheet of brass that covered the core under the filler cap extending left and right out of sight. I think its function was to divide the flow coming from the upper right corner and send part of it over the baffle to the left side of the rad.
If someone still has a stock rad it would be interesting to do a temperature profile from left to right and top to bottom when the engine is hot and idling to see how much temp difference there is from left to right.
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By aussiebill - 11 Years Ago
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Ted (4/9/2013)
Here’s a picture of the type of spacer I use to restore the belt alignment when removing the 1” water pump spacer on the T-Bird engines. This spacer simply sandwiches between the water pump and the front pulley to make up for the 1” that the water pump moves rearward.
Yes ted, as you know these spacers came in varying lengths in later model engines and are so handy for positioning fan closer to radiator, i often machine them to specific lengths and are just so handy.
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By BrianL - 11 Years Ago
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I too second what Steve has said about adding the restriction in the bypass tube. I also installed the CASCO improved water pump that was mentioned earlier as I had the same issues with my bird that you mention. No issues since I did both these modifications..
Good luck!
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By BrianL - 11 Years Ago
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I also have the bottom fan shroud that Steve mentions. It's a plastic one I ordered from one of the T-Bird suppliers. This is in addition to the CASCO modified water pump & the bypass hose restriction already mentioned. Don't know how much the shroud helped, as I have modified a lot of things to get the Bird to run cool (did the shroud, water pump, & bypass modification at the same time). But I can pull enough air through the radiator, & flow enough coolant apparently to idle as long as I please with no heat issues now. I also followed Steve's timing & manifold vacuum advance suggestions (very interesting reads on both ported & non-ported vacuum advance when searching old posts here). All I know is it runs much cooler, & no longer do I watch the temp gage peg regularly.
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By slumlord444 - 11 Years Ago
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What specific electric fan are you running on the T-Bird?
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By Talkwrench - 11 Years Ago
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Do the Tbirds have a shroud for the fan??
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By Talkwrench - 11 Years Ago
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HAs anyone put a shroud [or is one available] for the Fairlanes ? I have been thinking about this for mine . Ive done the basic mods and only gets hot sitting in slow traffic on a hot day. Thought a shroud would fix it.
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By Talkwrench - 11 Years Ago
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I'll just keep my eye out for something that may work. Dont think my fan is quite that close to the radiator.. mm have to check? Better make sure the front steady rest is solid too if its going to get that close !
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By Ivan M. Thoen - 11 Years Ago
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You may want to look at brewing up in a different way. There is a lifetime coolant that uses no water and boils at 375 degrees. it is polypropylene glycol plus additives and goes by the name of Evans Waterless Coolant. It's not inexpensive but you only need to buy one filling.
Jay Leno uses it in all his liquid cooled cars and devotes two webisodes to this remarkable product.
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By gekko13 - 11 Years Ago
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I would definitely use a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water. Glycol based coolants were originally developed in part, to allow designers to use smaller (area) radiators on aircraft engines. The smaller and thus more aerodynamic radiators exploited the fact that ethylene glycol conducted heat significantly better than water alone. As mentioned above, briefly revving the engine in neutral would have probably helped to increase circulation of both air and coolant. Shutting off the engine while over heated is an invitation to more problems. That should be avoided if possible. Over all though, I wouldn't fret about it too much. Iron motors are generally pretty tolerant of temperature but they aren't unbreakable. Install a proper mixture of antifreeze + distilled water and keep cruising.
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By gekko13 - 11 Years Ago
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Daniel, I should have qualified the use of "better". Strictly speaking, pure H2O is an excellent "cooling fluid" but it becomes more efficacious as an engine coolant with the addition of ethylene glycol or other similar materials. Not only does it inhibit freeze damage to the water jackets and cylinder heads, it raises the boiling point significantly. Even under pressure, water boils at a lower temperature and steam is a poor coolant. Steam pockets can be a real problem in liquid cooled engines and anything to avoid that is deemed desirable. Now, because a 50/50 glycol coolant mixture can safely function at higher temperatures, other components such as heat exchangers can be sized accordingly- usually smaller and less drag producing- without jeopardizing engine life. BTW, back in the day (way before my time), aircraft manuals commonly referred to coolant radiators as "Prestone coolers". Sound familiar? But you caught me. I made an overly simple statement on a complex and multi-faceted subject. Sorry for the confusion.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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Yeah, I know it is a perennial problem, but I had my first experience with overheating in traffic yesterday. Never had a problem before, but I was in very slow stop & go for about an hour on my way to cruise night. It was about 80 degrees outside... not really hot, but the traffic was bad enough that the car was stopped most of the time. Maxed out the factory temp gauge. I have a mechanical gauge in the bypass line, which indicated around 210. It normally reads about 20 degrees cooler than the manifold, but of course I wasn't able to get out and check the temp with an IR gauge.
As the engine kept getting hotter, I popped the rear-opening hood to increase the air flow. As temps rose further, I turned on the heater. Finally, I started turning off the engine when the car wasn't moving. In hindsight, turning off the engine was probably a bad idea, huh? It didn't boil-over that I could tell. I knew the engine was hot because it dieseled when I shut it off... it has never done that before. One thing I did NOT do was rev the engine a little, which might have helped move more air and water around... my idle is set pretty low. Once the car was moving steadily again, the temps settled right down into normal range, and everything ran fine. No dieseling when I finally parked.
My engine is a fresh 292 (2Kmi), decked block, 113 heads milled for 9:1 SCR, Mummert 265 cam, Mallory unilite (mechanical only), 12 deg. BTDC @ idle. Runs very strong. I have a 6 bladed fan, "normal" water pump and pulley, and use a recovery tank. The level was low when I got to cruise night. It may have been low to start with, I didn't check. I'm running just distilled water with radiator relief. I know that there are things I can do to increase cooling... I'm considering getting an electric pusher fan. I've heard of installing a modified heavy duty big block fan & thermal clutch. But this experience got me second guessing my actions yesterday...
So, what do you guys do when you get stuck in traffic and the water temp heads skyward? Do you wait for the cloud of steam and then pull over?
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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GREENBIRD56 (4/7/2013)
The use of a large flow capacity thermostat can help a t-bird a good bit more than a standard engine (without the pump spacer) so make sure you check that out. The "high flow" t-stat sold by Mr Gasket for a big block MOPAR will help. The flow restrictor in the bypass hose (mentioned by Ted) just about always shows an improvement in water flow to the radiator. Use a brass 3/8 nominal size pipe plug with a 1/8 - 3/16 orfice drilled through it. Insert in the short hose under the thermostat housing - otherwise the bypass is 5/8 tube "short citcuit" for hot water.
I am using the Mr Gasket thermostat, and yes I tested it before I installed it. I've read about the flow restrictor in the bypass line... right now, that is where I have my mechanical temp sender located. I have reason to believe that there may be reverse flow in that line at idle, because it measures 20 degrees cooler than the manifold using an IR thermometer. This is another good reason to install an orofice.
I have avoided ethylene glycol because I've read that pure water actually removes heat better per unit volume (higher specific heat) than anti-freeze, even though it boils at a lower temperature. I will try to look up a reference and repost.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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Ted (4/7/2013)
Do you have the 1” spacer in place behind the water pump? If so, then removing the ‘T-Bird’ specific spacer will improve the water flow at low rpms. The water pump pulley will need to be moved back forward that missing one inch to correct for the belt alignment to compensate for the ‘removed’ spacer.
And the generator/alternator bracket will have to be massaged. The infamous "t-bird waterpump backing plate" that CASCO debunked was supposed to do the same thing as taking the spacer out. Taking out the spacer is probably a better approach, but has lots of other implications as you mention.
CASCO's test, at least from a water flow perspective, indicates the best answer is to rev the motor a little. I'll have to do my own testing on the next hot day. I'd like to get this resolved before I drive the bird in a parade!
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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skygazer (4/7/2013)I have avoided ethylene glycol because I've read that pure water actually removes heat better per unit volume (higher specific heat) than anti-freeze, even though it boils at a lower temperature. I will try to look up a reference and repost.
Wikipedia: "Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 3140 J/Kg C (0.75 BTU/lb F) three quarters that of pure water, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water."
For whatever that's worth. Seems that folks are having good luck with 50/50 mix in their t-birds.
Oh, and I've also read that the thermal conductivity of copper is better than that of aluminum. From what I can tell, the reason to use an aluminum radiator is because the metal is slightly stronger, and allows "larger" tubes that are longer in cross section, thus providing more surface area. I have a clean, stock copper radiator.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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pegleg (4/8/2013)I suspect you'll find the advantage of aluminum is more based on cost and weight than strength. There are so many varieties of aluminum alloy that a generality about strength is not accurate.
True enough. I will note that US Radiator uses 1/2" tubes on their copper cores, and 1" tubes on their aluminum cores. For higher efficiency on their copper radiators, they simply cram more tubes into the core.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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GREENBIRD56 (4/8/2013)
Skygazer what is your spark advance at idle? My outfit runs 10° initial and due to the use of live manifold vacuum on the vac advance - an additional 7° comes in for a total of 17°.
I've read your excellent posts on timing... that's why I mentioned it in my OP: "My engine is a fresh 292 (2Kmi), decked block, 113 heads milled for 9:1 SCR, Mummert 265 cam, Mallory unilite (mechanical only), 12 deg. BTDC @ idle. Runs very strong." Yes, no vacuum advance. 12 deg. is about as far as I want to push it.
At this point, I'm going to flush the coolant, open the thermostat housing, and drill a new hole in the manifold for the mechanical temp sender. I'll also put an orifice in the bypass line while I have things apart.. I plan on refilling with distilled water & DEI Radiator Relief. I may invest in an electric pusher fan... this seems like an inexpensive way to increase cooling, but requires half a day to R&R the grille... plus relay & wiring.
I'm not convinced that a new radiator would do any good. The block, heads and radiator were clean 9 months/2000 miles ago, and I have no reason to think they aren't clean now.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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Here's an update... just took the t-bird on her first parade (details on my blog). Local temp 82°. Flushed the coolant system, replaced the thermostat with a new Mr. Gasket #4367. Made double sure that I put it in the right direction! Installed a 3/16 orifice in the bypass line. Filled with distilled water and Radiator Relief. Installed electric pusher fan. Here's a pic of the mechanical temp gauge at its highest:
That knob between the gauges is a pull switch for the electric fan.
Thanks for all the advice! I now have confidence to drive the t-bird in traffic on hot days.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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Talkwrench (4/22/2013)
Do the Tbirds have a shroud for the fan??
Yes, they all had shrouds from the factory. I think it is Ford Engineering's response to Design's need for an undersized radiator. The small radiator, combined with the small engine compartment, make little birds very hot-running in slow traffic.
It would have been good if the ornamental fender "hashmarks" were instead real fender vents! Tom Maruska made them functional in his pro-touring resto-rod, but that was a pretty involved mod!
By the way, 6 early birds joined the parade from my club. None boiled over, but two pegged their temp gauges and had to pull over and cool off after the parade. My car didn't need that!
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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GREENBIRD56 (4/22/2013)
Skygazer - Does your system give a stable temp without the aux. fan? If so, how high over ambient does it get?
I could check this again in my driveway. It was 130 over ambient and rising in my original post.
slumlord444 (4/26/2013)
What specific electric fan are you running on the T-Bird?
$50 eBay reversible 16", curved blade. I had to flip the blades and reverse the polarity of the motor. No way this is 3000 cfm, but it does draw some heavy current! About half the price of the equivalent from fanman. We'll see how long it lasts... if it fries, replacement is a simple bolt in (after pulling the grille... ugh)
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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312T tell us more about this restrictor plate. How does it work and is it only used on T birds? Thanks.
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By 312T85Bird - 11 Years Ago
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Before removing the 1" spacer, put a stainless steel restrictor plate between the spacer and the timing cover housing, this plate can be purchased from Hill's Thunderbird Center and others.
312T85Bird
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By DryLakesRacer - 11 Years Ago
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Greenbirds suggestion to me on a plug in the bypass line solved the heat problem in my 56 Vic. I drilled a 1/8" hole in the plug and the Mopar high flow thermostat (160 for me). After the installation I check the temp with a heat gun and find 165 at the neck and 145 at the low hose. The factory temp gauge moves quite a bit as the thermo works but knowing the real temps now doesn't bother me. Funny when our family ownd a new 56 for 6 years I never remember seeing the guage go past half way or move much at all.
He also gave me one other suggestion if I have any more trouble in "cruise" type situations and that would be to put a smaller upper water pump pully on. I looked it all up to put on a Mustang pulley with some spacers behind it for alignment but didn't need to do it.
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By DryLakesRacer - 11 Years Ago
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Talkwrench...On the Fairlanes no fan shroud should be needed if the fan is close (1/2") to the radiator; but I have thought of one for mine, moving the fan back as much as I could.
I have made shrouds for our 1/2 mile dirt Super Stock using a metal circle 3/8" from the fan and half way thru the pitch. I used styrofoam for the pattern with the ring and fiberglassed over it. Other racers who see them say I have too much time on my hands. Other racers make them out of aluminum tapering from the edge of the rad to the fan circle just as my fiberglass ones do. I just can't weld aluminum. A good fabricator can do this with a minumum of welding and making good bends on a box break. If you live close to a good racecar fabricator these guys can do this and probably will like to help.
I have 2 rads for my Fairlane and neither have the tank deflector; something I never thought of....Good Luck
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By sumfoo1 - 11 Years Ago
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does anyone make a water pump with a decent modern impeller design for the 312 birds?
mine looks like some metal blocks welded on a disk.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 11 Years Ago
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While speaking of radiators, remember that paint is an insulator. Heavy coats of paint on the fins look nice, but greatly reduces heat conductivity. My friend who had a radiator shop many years ago used a very thin coat of flat black paint of some kind on his repair jobs.
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By Ted - 11 Years Ago
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Do you have the 1” spacer in place behind the water pump? If so, then removing the ‘T-Bird’ specific spacer will improve the water flow at low rpms. The water pump pulley will need to be moved back forward that missing one inch to correct for the belt alignment to compensate for the ‘removed’ spacer.
Another item that helps is to put a restrictor in the bypass line between the thermostat housing and the water pump. An eighth inch hole in the restrictor will suffice for that.
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By Ted - 11 Years Ago
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Here’s a picture of the type of spacer I use to restore the belt alignment when removing the 1” water pump spacer on the T-Bird engines. This spacer simply sandwiches between the water pump and the front pulley to make up for the 1” that the water pump moves rearward.
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By Ted - 11 Years Ago
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sumfoo1 (5/3/2013)
does anyone make a water pump with a decent modern impeller design for the 312 birds?
mine looks like some metal blocks welded on a disk.Removing the 1” spacer that's behind the water pump seems to be the easy fix while using a stock unmodified water pump. This simply requires the fan pulley to be spaced back forward to get the fan belt back to its original location.
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