Oil pressure?


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By HoLun - 17 Years Ago
Haven't post much lately, so heres a question.



I have a rotor pump, before I did any modification to it, at idle, I get about 10psi, 30-40 at cruise, I think thats within specs from the factory service manual, but I think its a little low, so I put a bunch of washers between the nut and the spring of the oil pressure regulator valve on the oil pump, now it idles at 25psi hot and 55-60 psi cruising.



but the thing is, with the washers in there, it limits travel of the regulator piston, I dont know if it will affact anything, but so far I haven;t have any problems.



what oil pressure you guys have in you Ys? do you guys think that 25psi at idle and 60 at cruise is overkill for these engine? is there any high pressure springs out there that will fit the rotor pump instead of putting shims and washer in it?
By MoonShadow - 17 Years Ago
That used to be an easy modification. We could buy the oil pump springs at the Hot Rod shops that would bring up the oil pressure. Maybe one of the Guru's out there knows a source or maybe another spring that will work. Chuck
By Ted - 17 Years Ago

Shimming the spring isn’t expected to affect the hot oil pressure at idle speed providing the engine has normal clearances and no blockages.  The spring simply controls the pressure point at which the relief valve opens and thereby dictates the upper end oil pressure setpoint.  Shimming the spring will simply create more resistance for the relief valve and cause it to open at a higher pressure.  In your case, simply removing the pump, taking it apart, and replacing it would appear to have boosted your low end oil pressure regardless of what you did in the way of shimming the relief valve spring.  High on the list of possibilities is that the oil pump was pulling in some air at the inlet side and that issue was alleviated when the pump was reinstalled.

 

Too much shim can potentially limit the relief valve movement by inducing spring coil bind which then prevents the valve from fully exposing the internal hole in which it must dump oil to relieve the excess oil pressure.

 

The gear style pump in my ’55 with a 272 will bump 67-70 lbs oil pressure at a cold fast idle but will fall down to 20 lbs hot and idling.  It will still run 55 psi going down the road when hot and this is at 100K plus miles on the engine and using 10W-40 oil.

 

My roadster Y engine has its gerorotor style oil pump relief valve shimmed so that the stock spring is ~0.150” shorter which provides 90+ psi cold pressure.  Hot idle at about 1000 rpms sees the oil pressure drop to around 15 psi but immediately jumps up when the engine speed is brought up.  Going through the traps at temperature, it’s running 70+ psi pressure with 20W-50 racing oil.

By aussiebill - 17 Years Ago
Hi ted and guys, i drilled and tapped the relief spring screwin plug in oil pump and fitted bolt with locknut, washer and fibre washer. i can then externally adjust the relief pressure reading the oil guage. Aussie bill.
By DANIEL TINDER - 17 Years Ago
Ted,



If the roadster is only making 70# hot pressure at redline, what's the point of shimming the spring to bypass at 90#? Faster warm-up by friction-heating of the oil?
By Ted - 17 Years Ago
DANIEL TINDER (11/3/2007)
Ted,

If the roadster is only making 70# hot pressure at redline, what's the point of shimming the spring to bypass at 90#? Faster warm-up by friction-heating of the oil?

The oil viscosity changes with the temperature.  Oil pressure is defined as 'resistance to flow' and cold oil simply has more resistance than hot oil due to being higher in viscosity.  When shimming the oil pump so it had 90 lbs cold, I was insuring that the highest possible oil pressure was 90 psi.  If I were to increase the viscosity of the oil being used or run the oil at a cooler temperature, then I could potentially have the oil pressure closer to 90 psi going through the traps than the aforementioned 70+ lbs.  If I had not shimmed the oil relief valve spring, then the oil pressure going through the traps was potentially going to be no more than 55 psi or whatever the stock spring tension allowed.

By DANIEL TINDER - 17 Years Ago
Pardon my ignorance guys (still learning the basics). I assume then that the pump manufacturers figure that 55-60 psi is all the pressure a stock motor needs, and higher would just create leaks/waste H.P/overheat the oil.



While shimming the spring simplest way to insure adequate pressure under race conditions, an adjustable pump would seem a more precise method, if indeed the power wasted overdriving the pump was significant, and the maximum usable pressure latitude COULD be precisely determined.
By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Dan,

        The pump manufacturer will build the pump to Ford specs. They have no idea what bearing material, rotational speeds, style of lifters, or any other design parameters the engine designers are using. And, at 6000 rpm and 70 lbs the oil pump is using a subtantial amount of power. There's quite an aftermarket in heavier than stock oil pump drive shafts for almost every kind of engine.

By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
Does anyone know the spring rate of the stock spring? I bought some at a local industrial supply that are 16lbs at 1.08". The feel a bit on the strong side. The dimensions are pretty close, otherwise - 5/16" diameter, 2 1/2" long. These are the only ones they had with dimensions which were close. There are some longer, smaller wire diameter springs that might work but I didn't get them.



Also, is there a source for gaskets for the relief valve plug? They are about 5/8" id, 7/8" od and maybe 1/32" thick. The gaskets for Edelbrock fuel fittings would probably work but I can't find a part number for them. The gaskets broke on most of the old pumps I've taken apart. I'd like to have one in hand, just in case.
By simplyconnected - 15 Years Ago
HoLun (11/1/2007)
...the thing is, with the washers in there, it limits travel of the regulator piston, I dont know if it will affact anything, but so far I haven;t have any problems...

Oil pumps are positive displacement, meaning they produce flow in Gallons Per Minute in direct ratio to your engine speed.

You're right HoLun,  if your engine can't use (or bypass) the flow produced by the pump, pressure continues to build.  As wide-open as your bypass valve can be, if it's not enough to relieve flow, pressure will continue to build until something gives.  Usually, it's the oil filter because that is the very next thing right after the oil pump, and it's the weakest component.

You're wise to look for another spring rather than shim.

Dave

By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
I'm probably from a whole different school of thought than everyone else. I see no reason to want higher oil pressure. You need enough volume of oil for it to get every where. Cummins Diesel dropped their oil pressure from around 60 at governed rpm to 30 because it takes horse power for the extra pressure. Our over the road engines are derated to 370 hp and 1450 ft lbs torque, but are capable of 525hp and 1850 ft lbs torque with 30 psi oil pressure. Cummins made that change 30 years ago with no problems.
By 46yblock - 15 Years Ago
Ive read all the posts with a lot of interest, because of some similar problems.  My oil pressure is 25 psi at cold and hot idle.  30 psi while driving, cold or hot.  New engine.  Should the spring be shimmed?  What is your best guess as to what is happening in the pump currently? 
By Ted - 15 Years Ago
charliemccraney (5/23/2009)
Does anyone know the spring rate of the stock oil pump spring?

Charlie.  Believe what you're looking for is at this link.

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/FindPost22736.aspx 

By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
Thanks, Ted. You know, I looked right at that post.

Isn't it interesting how the mind lets one see only what it wants him to see?
By Ted - 15 Years Ago
46yblock (5/24/2009)
Ive read all the posts with a lot of interest, because of some similar problems.  My oil pressure is 25 psi at cold and hot idle.  30 psi while driving, cold or hot.  New engine.  Should the spring be shimmed?  What is your best guess as to what is happening in the pump currently? 

Shimming the oil pump spring only raises the oil pressure if the oil pressure is already high enough to open the relief valve.  Stock relief valves open in the vicinity of 55 psi with factory fresh springs but if the spring is weak or damaged, then the relief valve can potentially be opening prematurely.  In your case, it’s quite easy to simply remove the screw in plug holding the relief valve spring and add some shims.  Be sure the shims are small enough in diameter to fit within the hollow portion of the plug.  Adding 0.100”-0.120” of shim to the spring will let you know quite quickly if you have a spring related problem or if you need to look elsewhere.

By 46yblock - 15 Years Ago
Thanks Ted, and thanks Holun for starting the thread.  Mike
By 46yblock - 15 Years Ago
Ted (5/25/2009)
46yblock (5/24/2009)
Ive read all the posts with a lot of interest, because of some similar problems.  My oil pressure is 25 psi at cold and hot idle.  30 psi while driving, cold or hot.  New engine.  Should the spring be shimmed?  What is your best guess as to what is happening in the pump currently? 

Shimming the oil pump spring only raises the oil pressure if the oil pressure is already high enough to open the relief valve.  Stock relief valves open in the vicinity of 55 psi with factory fresh springs but if the spring is weak or damaged, then the relief valve can potentially be opening prematurely.  In your case, it’s quite easy to simply remove the screw in plug holding the relief valve spring and add some shims.  Be sure the shims are small enough in diameter to fit within the hollow portion of the plug.  Adding 0.100”-0.120” of shim to the spring will let you know quite quickly if you have a spring related problem or if you need to look elsewhere.

Did it using .120 shim and pressure is better.  After dropping hot idle to 600 rpm, now have 23-24 psi, and 47-48 psi underway hot.  10W30 oil.  The rotor oil pump may have a little more wear on it than I thought.

By simplyconnected - 15 Years Ago
46yblock (5/26/2009)
Did it using .120 shim and pressure is better.  After dropping hot idle to 600 rpm, now have 23-24 psi, and 47-48 psi underway hot.  10W30 oil.  The rotor oil pump may have a little more wear on it than I thought.

Those pressures are REAL good!  What are they cold?

By speedpro56 - 15 Years Ago
46yblock, are you running a zddp additive with the 10w 30w oil? Just want you to be on the safe side, I run 10w 40w  and 15w 50w so I won't have to add the oil additive.
By 46yblock - 15 Years Ago
Simplyconnected and Gary, yeah I am pleased with the pressure.  Really didnt want anything higher given the mpg objectives of this low rpm application, and feared with the .120 shim the pressure might shoot up to 60.  The oil is Valvoline VR-1 (think that is what they call it) which is their racing oil full of ZDDP.  Plus there is the Comp Cam breakin additive for the first 500 miles.  The 10/30 was the choice to get a few more miles per tank.  Cold pressure was like 25/52, or close.  The engine has 250 miles on it so far.

Mike

By simplyconnected - 15 Years Ago
Mike, you are breaking in your new engine, right.  I'm sure it will give you even better performance as it wears-in.

That 52-psi is just fine, and you're right, ~60 would be my max.

Some things are well worth sacrificing gas mileage for.  Detonation from running too lean is tops on my list.  These carbureted engines aren't computer controlled, so our settings may stay the same, but the weather changes.  Some days your engine will run sweet.  All we can do is tune our adjustments within safe limits, then let it go.

Glad you set your oil pump up right.  Extra lubrication will pay off big dividends in the long run.

Dave

By 46yblock - 15 Years Ago
Correction on the cold idle pressures:  45 psi cold idle and 52 psi cold 2500 rpm.  There is no sign of detonation with 89 octane mid grade and 6 degrees initial.  Plan to bump up initial a couple degrees and see what happens.  Spark plugs look perfect with a Mustang 2V 1.14 venturi carb/51 jets.  Comp. ratio calculates at 9.2 to 1, and I will have actual cylinder pressures soon.  Things are looking pretty good so far BigGrin