By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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I had a stock 1956 4V intake on the +060 over 312 dyno mule so I could sort out some Holley Teapot, Carter WCFB, and Rochester 4V carbs in preparation for the upcoming dual quad intake test. The peak power numbers were so dismal I had to take a second look at the carbs to insure that the secondaries were opening up; the carbs were working just fine. Final conclusion: the 1956 ECZ-A intake is obviously very restricted compared to the stock 1957 ECZ-B intake. It’s no wonder that so many of those ’55 and ’56 Fords that had dual quads installed back in their day had a significant increase in performance. Here are the peak HP numbers for three different intakes used on the dyno mule with a set of mildly ported 113 heads. All these values are with the same carb just to keep all the intake comparisons on a level playing field. – 240HP at 5100 rpm - ECZ-A Teapot, stock unported – 276HP at 5200 rpm - ECZ-B Large flange, stock unported – 311HP at 6000 rpm - Out of the box Mummert aluminum, stock unported While the Teapot intakes are obviously good daily driver manfolds, the step up in performance in just changing to the ECZ-B intake is more than impressive. Ford engineers were on top of their game in ’57.
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By speedpro56 - 12 Years Ago
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This is what I call an excellent learning tool. Thanks Ted
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Looks like John beat the "B" pretty handily, 50 years later! Notice that nothing Edelbrock has done matches what he has done.
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By Lord Gaga - 12 Years Ago
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Did you use the same teapot carb on the ECZ-B manifold for this test? With an adapter?Ted (12/17/2012)
I had a stock 1956 4V intake on the +060 over 312 dyno mule so I could sort out some Holley Teapot, Carter WCFB, and Rochester 4V carbs in preparation for the upcoming dual quad intake test. The peak power numbers were so dismal I had to take a second look at the carbs to insure that the secondaries were opening up; the carbs were working just fine. Final conclusion: the 1956 ECZ-A intake is obviously very restricted compared to the stock 1957 ECZ-B intake. It’s no wonder that so many of those ’55 and ’56 Fords that had dual quads installed back in their day had a significant increase in performance.
Here are the peak HP numbers for three different intakes used on the dyno mule with a set of mildly ported 113 heads. All these values are with the same carb just to keep all the intake comparisons on a level playing field.
– 240HP at 5100 rpm - ECZ-A Teapot, stock unported – 276HP at 5200 rpm - ECZ-B Large flange, stock unported – 311HP at 6000 rpm - Out of the box Mummert aluminum, stock unported
While the Teapot intakes are obviously good daily driver manfolds, the step up in performance in just changing to the ECZ-B intake is more than impressive. Ford engineers were on top of their game in ’57.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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Lord Gaga (12/18/2012) Did you use the same teapot carb on the ECZ-B manifold for this test? With an adapterFor the comparison between the manifolds, I used a 750HP vacuum secondary Holley. On the teapot intake, this required a tapered adapter for both the 600 and 750 carbs. The Lincoln Teapot used the factory ½" phenolic 4 hole spacer. The idea here is to make sure that the various intake manfolds that are being tested are the limiting factor and not the heads and/or carburetors in this type of test. While I used the teapot manifold with a variety of small flanged carbs simply insuring that the carbs were suitable for the dual quad test, I used the 750 Holley to insure that the intakes were being fully utilized in regards to cfm requirements. Had I tested all three intakes with the smaller carburetor, the differences between manifolds would not have been as obvious. I trust that makes sense. But as part of this particular dyno test, I did test the ECZ-A Teapot intake with three different carbs. Here are the results. 238 HP – Lincoln Teapot 239 HP – Holley 600cfm vacuum secondaries 240 HP – Holley 750HP vacuum secondaries
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By marvh - 12 Years Ago
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[b]Ted class=MsoNormal> But as part of this particular dyno test, I did test the ECZ-A Teapot intake with three different carbs. Here are the results.
238 HP – Lincoln Teapot 239 HP – Holley 600cfm vacuum secondaries240 HP – Holley 750HP vacuum secondaries
Very interesting on the Lincoln teapot being able to hold its own against the other carbs.
I knew the Lincoln teapot was good as we would switch the Ford/Merc Holleys years ago fast if we were fortunate enough to find a wrecked Lincoln to grab the carb.That change sure enlightened the 55/56's with the "A" style manifolds.
I ran a Lincoln teapot on my car until I switched to the FAST fuel injection two years ago.
marv
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By texasmark1 - 12 Years Ago
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So, make it simple for a country boy with an "A" manifold... Holley 600cfm sounds like a fit for a stock 272 that gets driven mostly locally, every few days..., right? Mark
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By charliemccraney - 12 Years Ago
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texasmark1 (12/18/2012) So, make it simple for a country boy with an "A" manifold...
Holley 600cfm sounds like a fit for a stock 272 that gets driven mostly locally, every few days..., right?
Mark
It looks to me like the intake is the limiting component; You'll probably get about the same peak numbers with any 4v carb on the A manifold. Ted, how does the low end compare with the different carbs?
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Ted, Any chance that test could be duplicated on the B intake?
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By Hollow Head - 12 Years Ago
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Ted, please, give us fair hp numbers with all tested at 5000 rpm. We all know 5100 rpm and 6000 rpm are not the same. As at our dyno sessio we got about 10 to 13 hp more with every 100 rpm increase it sure makes difference.
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By PF Arcand - 12 Years Ago
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Texmark: Re your 600 cfm carb question.. Ted's test mule engine is 50 cu.in. bigger than your stock 272, & had better heads etc. It's very likely that 600cfm is overkill. 57-312s didn't use a carb that big..
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By DryLakesRacer - 12 Years Ago
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Are you going to run a test with a Lincoln or Merc WCFB on the "A" manifold?. I could supply a newly restored carb for the test all I need is it sent back after the test......JD
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By joey - 12 Years Ago
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texasmark1 (12/18/2012)
So, make it simple for a country boy with an "A" manifold... Holley 600cfm sounds like a fit for a stock 272 that gets driven mostly locally, every few days..., right? Mark Performance will depend a lot on how it's jetted. But that sounds to me like a lot of carb for a 272 with that manifold. Your setup is not going to approach that 600 cfm of air. Holley makes the 4160 390-cfm, vacuum secondaries carb which would be the first thing I'd look at. Straightforward and affordable. Holley also makes a 450 cfm 4 barrel but I think it's only available with mechanical secondaries, intended more in a multiple carb setup. Demon makes good carbs, they have 525- and 575-cfm versions available with vacuum secondaries, but they're pricey and they may suck down more gas, apples to apples.
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By lyonroad - 12 Years Ago
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For those of us stuck with an "A" manifold, for the time being,does anyone think that it would be advantageous to convert the four hole design to two ovals as has been suggested for the "B" manifold? If yes would you also slot the carb adapter plate?
Mark
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By speedpro56 - 12 Years Ago
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By the time you put into reworking the A manifold I would think it cheaper to just by a B manifold and have better performance in stock condition than what the A can do modified because of the better carb selections for the B. From what I see from Teds experience the B kills the A from airflow and that goes a long way in making power.
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By lyonroad - 12 Years Ago
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Well I've never seen a "B" manifold for sale where I live (Delta B.C.) and the ones one ebay are well north of $200 plus upwards of $50 for shipping. Also I'm just about to get the motor rebuilt so it will be a while before I can justify buying a "B" manifold. I'm retired and I don't charge for my labour so I was just thinking would it help in the short term, to slot the "A" manifold. I can do that for free.
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By Talkwrench - 12 Years Ago
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Mark good question about slotting out the ' A ' . Maybe at some point Ted may try ?? Mark, I was running a 600 Holley Vac on my 292, I now have on a Holley 450 Vac [yes vac secondaries] it wasn't a revelation for me, I had the 600 running well, also this is on a 'B' Manifold Dispite coming down to 58 jets in the 450 over the 64's in the 600 the fuel economy hasn't been that much better.. If you have the 600 try it and see.
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By junkyardjeff - 12 Years Ago
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Ted there is a Edelbrock F548 aluminum intake for a teapot carb on ebay that someone is wanting a fortune for and was wondering if you have ever tested one to see if it was any better then the a intake,there is a link in the this and that section for the auction and was wondering if someone bought it for the 1500 buy it now price would be expecting it to rum better the with a stock intake.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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junkyardjeff (12/19/2012) Ted there is a Edelbrock F548 aluminum intake for a teapot carb on ebay that someone is wanting a fortune for and was wondering if you have ever tested one to see if it was any better then the a intake,there is a link in the this and that section for the auction and was wondering if someone bought it for the 1500 buy it now price would be expecting it to rum better the with a stock intake.MoonShadow (12/18/2012) I had one of these intakes. The runners, like the original are small. It might be possible to do some grinding of the intake runners and port matching but I don't know how much material is there. Did Ted test one of these? I really don't think they flow any better than stock. That said, it is aluminum and aftermarket to as eye candy on a dail driver it would work ok. ChuckChuck & Jeff. I do have an Edelbrock #548 aluminum 4V intake sitting here that I plan on running on the dyno mule in the near future. I didn't have to give much for it probably because it was in sad shape when I got it. The repairs to the front of the intake have just been completed as that intake was very corroded in the thermostat area when I received it. In doing a quick visual comparison, the Edel #548 intake ports are much smaller than those on the 1956 ECZ-A manifold. This is likely attributed to the Edelbrock intake being specifically designed for the 1954 Ford 239 & Merc 256 engines. Here’s a picture of the Edelbrock intake I have after repairing the thermostat housing area.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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lyonroad (12/19/2012) For those of us stuck with an "A" manifold, for the time being,does anyone think that it would be advantageous to convert the four hole design to two ovals as has been suggested for the "B" manifold? If yes would you also slot the carb adapter plate? MarkMark. While I’m not going to test that particular scenario on an ‘A’ manifold, it does help the ECZ-B manifold to convert the four holes to two slots. With that in mind, then I’ll go out on a limb and say that slotting the ECZ-A manifold and also slotting the adapter will help the overall air flow. And as you mention, labor is cheap when you do it yourself for yourself. Go for it.
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By Doug T - 12 Years Ago
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I think modifying an A iron manifold would be a good thing to try. Bolt the adaptor on the manifold and then port as for a B manifold. The main improvements are not the oval holes, they are: the better transitions out of the carb into the runners and; eliminating a pinch point where the runner goes down to the lower passage.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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DryLakesRacer (12/19/2012) Are you going to run a test with a Lincoln or Merc WCFB on the "A" manifold?. I could supply a newly restored carb for the test all I need is it sent back after the test......JDJ.D. There are no plans to put the ECZ-A manifold back on the engine. The dyno mule is currently sitting here with the ‘B’ intake on it and that one will be run again with the Teapot on it just to confirm the performance of the ‘B’ intake with the smaller carb. But I do plan on testing the Edelbrock 548 aluminum 4V intake on the mule engine with the same Lincoln Teapot that was used on the ECZ-A manifold. That will be a simple test in which to compare the Edelbrock 548 and ECZ-A intakes against each other. I do have a Merc WCFB carb here but it needs a kit and because I only had one of those carbs, there were no plans to use it on the dual quad intake test. Hence the Merc WCFB carb was not kitted. I do have a nice matching pair of GM WCFB's with mechanical secondaries that I am going to use in the dual quad test but the venturies on those look to be larger than the Merc units.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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pegleg (12/18/2012) Ted, Any chance that test could be duplicated on the B intake?Frank. I can run the Lincoln Teapot on the ‘B’ intake but the 600 Holley that was used on the ‘A’ intake manifold test will likely be gone by the time the dyno mule gets back on the dyno. I currently have a Chrysler engine on the dyno awaiting a new intake manifold for an upgrade in performance. Because the Holley 600 carb used in the ‘A’ manifold test belonged to a customer and was used on the 312 dyno mule to simply sort it out after a freshen up, that carb is scheduled to leave the shop before I get a chance to put the 312 with the ‘B’ intake back on the dyno. But I think just a simple comparison of Lincoln Teapot to Holley 750HP will suffice in determining what kind of differences these two carbs exhibit when used with the ‘B’ manifold. Comments always welcome.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (12/18/2012) ....... Ted, how does the low end compare with the different carbs?Hollow Head (12/18/2012)
Ted, please, give us fair hp numbers with all tested at 5000 rpm. We all know 5100 rpm and 6000 rpm are not the same. As at our dyno sessio we got about 10 to 13 hp more with every 100 rpm increase it sure makes difference. What was stated above were the peak HP numbers and the different manifolds do peak at different rpm values. But I see what’s being asked so here’s a chart with the HP values in 500 rpm increments that should make everything clearer. All this is still with the 750 carb as that's the only data sitting in front of me right now. I'll have to dig deeper for the other carb data.
rpm | ECZ-A Intake - 1956 | ECZ-B Intake - 1957 | Mummert intake - 2012 | 2500 | 147 | 143 | 139 | 3000 | 185 | 185 | 186 | 3500 | 211 | 213 | 225 | 4000 | 228 | 240 | 261 | 4500 | 238 | 260 | 293 | 5000 | 240 | 271 | 302 | 5500 | 230 | 273 | 308 | 6000 | | | 311 |
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By DryLakesRacer - 12 Years Ago
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Great info Ted. It will be interesting to see the the smaller carb HP up to 3500. If you have the torque numbers that would be great too.........Thanks again for your work...........JD
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By lyonroad - 12 Years Ago
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Ted and DougT thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll go for it. I see the "A" manifold can hold its own below 3000 rpm. That would make it a good performer in a parade.
Mark
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By Hollow Head - 12 Years Ago
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Thanks Ted. That clearly shows that in normal street use it is just the same what intake you are using. But if going to strip or track once in a while, it is good to go with B or Johns. It is question of money you spent and a speed you get.
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Ted, that'd work. I may send you a Lincoln teapot to try. Part of the curiosity is that when I changed over to the Edelbrock 600 on my car, I gained nothing in MPH. Probably proves zip because the manifold is undoubtedly the bottleneck on the F code. John told me he encountered the same thing on the Hurricane with a 600 Holley, I think. The Edelbrock is a much better all around , easier to tune, more modern carb, but the Teapots, at least on the F codes worked pretty well.
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By speedpro56 - 12 Years Ago
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I agree, for what Mark wants the A should work fine and sloting the intake should show some improvement in airflow following Thashers input on what he did to his B intake.
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By mctim64 - 12 Years Ago
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Thanks again for all the great work Ted, I read your dyno results and it always starts something turning in my head. Doug T., I used a cast factory "B" intake (on a 292 +.060 flat top cast pistons modified C1TE heads)with the same mods that you show on the Uni the first three runs out at Bonneville last year and ran 120 mph on all three passes. When I switched to the ECZ-G heads that were originally on Charlie Burns' "Yellow Brick" plus an extrude honed Blue Thunder intake on loan from Ted we gained 7 mph. From Teds cylinder head dyno test I know that the "G" heads made 30 more HP than did the modified C1TE heads. With this info I think you can draw some conclussions about how well a modified "B" intake performs.
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By Dave V - 12 Years Ago
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I'm in the process of putting together a 312 with an Isky E4 cam that I thought I would advance 2-4 degrees to improve low end grunt. Will slotting the B intake help me any more on low end? Dave
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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The overall torque will be improved by slotting the manifold but that improvement will only show up after 3000 rpms. If you’re upgrading the camshaft, you’ll still want to slot the intake regardless of the slight dip in torque that will occur at 2000-2500 rpms as a result of slotting the manifold.
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By Ted - 12 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (12/18/2012) ... Ted, how does the low end compare with the different carbs?DryLakesRacer (12/19/2012) Great info Ted. It will be interesting to see the the smaller carb HP up to 3500. If you have the torque numbers that would be great too.........Thanks again for your work...........JDHere are charts showing horsepower and torque using the ECZ-A intake with different carbs. It still boils down to fuel metering and not necessarily the carburetor size. But for all intent and purposes, all three carbs are reasonably close to each other on the ECZ-A’ intake manifold. And when considering that there is ~55 years between the Lincoln Teapot and the 750HP Holley, the Teapot holds it own quite well on the ‘A’ manifold. We’ll see what happens though when the Lincoln Teapot is matched up to the ECZ-B intake shortly. Horsepower – ECZ-A Intake with various carbs | Rpm | Lincoln Teapot | 600 Holley vac sec | 750HP Holley vac sec | 2500 | 141 | 144 | 147 | 3000 | 184 | 182 | 185 | 3500 | 213 | 204 | 211 | 4000 | 227 | 215 | 228 | 4500 | 237 | 233 | 238 | 5000 | 236 | 237 | 240 |
Torque lbs/ft – ECZ-A Intake with various carbs | Rpm | Lincoln Teapot | 600 Holley vac sec | 750HP Holley vac sec | 2500 | 296 | 303 | 309 | 3000 | 323 | 318 | 324 | 3500 | 319 | 307 | 317 | 4000 | 299 | 283 | 299 | 4500 | 277 | 271 | 278 | 5000 | 248 | 249 | 257 |
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By Dave V - 12 Years Ago
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Thanks for the info Ted. Dave
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By 56_Fairlane - 11 Years Ago
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Ted, this info is great. Thanks for sharing it with everyone.
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