By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
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Early last year I posted a question on the old forum re: guide knurling. Ted responded that he prefered screw-in bronze guides, etc., and yet my mechanic (who worked at a Ford dealer in the late 50s) still feels that if the original guides are not really worn, and geometry is near perfect, mild knurling would be fine for a stock motor (he did this with many Y-blocks over the years, successfully). Though I can find no one else who agrees, I was not convinced he is wrong as I DO like the idea (better lubrication/expansion fit/valve cooling characteristics of iron, AND lower cost, etc.).
It has occured to me recently though, that he likely has not knurled the guides on a Y-block overhaul using the stainless STEEL valves I will supply. Nor has he had the chance to follow-up on one that has seen high mileage on unleaded fuel (lead was a great upper-cylinder lube). Most of his vintage rebuilds become show cars, or VERY low use, occasional drivers (since I put at least 8K a year on my '55, I will rebuild with longevity in mind). Though I am sure he will follow my instructions, he DOES require a lot of stroking to get him off the dime and start any vintage project at his age, so I had better have something more specific to tell him than "nobody does guide knurling anymore".
I need to make a decision before he starts the head work (likely when the snow slows down his normal shop business). Any suggestions?
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By Glen Henderson - 18 Years Ago
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Guide knurling and piston knurling was standard practice during the 50's and 60's and would get you a few more miles out of a set of heads or pistons. We used to do it all the time back then at the ford dealerships that I worked at and it seemed to work pretty good. Would I do it now on one of my engines? NO!!!! Pop for the replacement guides and hard seats if you plan on driving it.
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By Ted - 18 Years Ago
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I’ll still put knurling in the car lot repair category. Knurling simply raises a very small area or strip on each side of the knurling groove to restore the desired clearance back to valve stem. This is ultimately a very small percentage of the guide area and ends up not being a high mileage repair. If the camshaft is a performance grind with higher than stock lift, then the wear problem associated with knurling becomes compounded. If the guide is worn enough to need repair, then guide replacement is at the top of my list. I’m simply more partial to screw in bronze guides over other guide styles as their success rate and longevity is high in the applications for which I’ve used them.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
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Ted,
I'm thinking that the valve cooling effect of integral guides is likely less important with stainless valves/hard seats. Could the wear characteristics of stainless steel against bronze also be superior? Is bronze a more porous (oil retaining), or harder metal than iron?
Since I am really not familiar with the technical specifics of the mechanical knurling procedure, I had only presumed that a guide not significantly worn could be knurled, and then reamed so that the contact surface was nearly continuous. Wouldn't a guide in a NOS head (blueprint spec.) when knurled, and then reamed back to it's original size be identical to the others? Wouldn't the guide/valve contact area depend entirely on how much wear the knurling corrected, or am I missing something (like compaction/surface disruption of the iron)?
Regardless, if the stainless valves/bronze guides combination wears best, then the extra latitude allowed in rocker geometry would be more than worth the money spent installing spiral guides, just by saving the trial & error labor needed to get things perfect.
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By Glen Henderson - 18 Years Ago
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Daniel, as Ted said, the knurling process only raises a small contact area. A easy way for you too understand the process is to take a center punch to any metal object. You will notice that the metal around the punched area is raised slightly, then if you take a file to it you are back down to the orginal surface (equates to wear). You will notice that it only takes a couple of file strokes. If you file the orginal flat surface, it takes several file strokes to remove the same thickness of metal.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
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Glen,
And if you made a large number of punches in a very SMALL area, logic would seem to indicate that the file strokes required would increase proportionally.
None the less, it has occured to me that the question I posed earlier (re: a NOS guide knurled and reamed) is rather silly. Since reaming REMOVES material rather than compressing it, the knurled guide would still have less surface area.
Another point: If you were building up a set of NOS heads for longevity (hard seats/stainless valves), would you take the trouble to install bronze inserts in fresh, unworn guides? The oil-holding characteristics of spiral inserts (?), and the fact that steel is harder than iron would seem to justify the expense.
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By speedpro56 - 18 Years Ago
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Here in nascar country they use the guides for the reasons you 're quoted and I do all my with the bronze guides.The better oiling goes a long way.
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By speedpro56 - 18 Years Ago
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forgot to put the word engines in my post.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 18 Years Ago
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I agree that the bronze valve guides are the best solution to worn guides in a high preformance/race motor. What ever became of .015 oversize valve stem replacement valves? Does anyone know of a source of stock or oversize valve head for a 292/312. For most street motors this seems to be more cost effective if the valves are still sold. Pete
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By Ted - 18 Years Ago
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Oversize valve stems would be a more desirable fix for worn guides as opposed to knurling as this would allow the surface area of the guide to be maximized. Keep in mind that the guide area is where the heat is transferred from the valve to the head so anything (ie. knurling) that minimizes this area will keep the valve itself from cooling as quickly. But off the shelf availability of oversize stems is decreasing as time goes along making this a less viable option. As far as wear characteristics of stainless on bronze, the bronze guides themselves prefer additional stem clearance regardless of the valve material and this has to do with the expansion rate of bronze versus that of iron.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
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Ted,
Your comment re: the reduced heat dissipation of knurled guides is very insightful. It never occured to me that knurling would likely allow even less heat transfer than bronze inserts.
Since I am now convinced that knurling should NOT be allowed, do you have a specific brand/source of screw-in spiral inserts to recommend, or any uniquely Y-block specific clearance specs, intallation tips, etc. that I might pass on?
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By Ted - 18 Years Ago
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DANIEL TINDER (9/9/2007) Since I am now convinced that knurling should NOT be allowed, do you have a specific brand/source of screw-in spiral inserts to recommend, or any uniquely Y-block specific clearance specs, intallation tips, etc. that I might pass on?There are several different options regarding bronze valve guides ranging from a pressed in guide or guide replacement, a guide liner, and a screw in guide-insert. Regardless of the type of bronze guide used, 0.0020”-0.0025” valve to guide clearance for the intakes and 0.0030”-0.0035” for the exhausts is preferred. This is roughly about 0.001” more clearance than what you’ll find for iron guides in a new condition. A disadvantage to the screw in guides would be their difficulty to replace after they’ve been installed but, ‘cross my fingers’, I’ve never had one go bad to date and I’ve been using these in my engines since the early Eighties. The screw in bronze guide inserts are available from Atlas (Winona brand?). K-Line makes a bronze guide liner with a spiral flute which have superior wear properties but these have been known to slip or become dislodged if the valve is subjected to extreme heat.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
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Thanks Ted,
Just wondering, but in the 1988 "Resurrection of Vicky" book photo spread, the (now defunct) Classic Car Center shop is shown installing what was described as "screen door spring-like" spiral bronze guide inserts. Were they the Atlas "screw-in type" you refer to?
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By Ted - 18 Years Ago
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Daniel. Haven’t seen the photo spread but that sounds like the screw in guide inserts to which I refer. Atlas is the only brand I’m aware of for these.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 18 Years Ago
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Ted: My local machinist and friend, Bill Smith, started doing head work back in the '70s, and he bought a Winona brand guide and seat machine. It sounds like the same guide inserts you are referring to, he bought them from Winona, but they could have easily been re-boxed Atlas inserts. A little story about him. Back in the days blueprinted heads began to show up on NHRA stockers, he was trying to break into the business then dominated by an Indianapolis shop. I suggested that he offer to do a pair of heads for a certain Indy racer that could not quite run on the national record, and if the car would not then run under the record, he did not need to pay for the head work. The racer agreed, the car immediately went a couple tenths under the record, and the next week Bill was inundated with sbc stocker heads from Indy. I have often wondered aloud to Bill that I don't see how he makes any money, he's too finicky with his work for the prices he charges. But he's been at it for 35 years. John
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By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
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Ted,
Will mail you copies of that head-work chapter. Could also include chapter/photo spread on crank grinding, if you would like?
That place (Warsaw, IN) had quite a shop. I visited them back in the 80's. They routinely x-rayed castings, and they would also bake and shot-peen heads/blocks, which I thought was a bit much for stock motors that would likely see little use!
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By Ted - 18 Years Ago
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Daniel, Those are likely the same articles or similar to what I read in Cars and Parts Magazine when the actual restoration was being performed on that particular car. At this point I don’t need any of the articles other than maybe the one on the headwork just to refamiliarize myself with that one again. I do remember the articles in the magazine going into much more detail on all the particulars than what you’d normally see in a run of the mill article on a rebuild.
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By ALANB - 16 Years Ago
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SUPREME ; Sodium Valves are oversize ... you must ream the guides to install them ... Common use is in propane powered Trucks , They are expensive !!! ALAN B .
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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ALANB (1/4/2009) SUPREME ; Sodium Valves are oversize ... you must ream the guides to install them ... Common use is in propane powered Trucks , They are expensive !!! ALAN B .Alan. Takes more than a simple reaming to install sodium valves in place of standard valve stems. For the Y engines, you’re talking about going from 11/32” to 7/16”. Much of the time, we’re going the other way around in taking heads that originally had sodium exhaust valves and switching the valves out to ones with standard sized valve stems. In these cases, new guides are installed. Daniel was commenting on the oversize valve stems (0.015") that use to be available that simply allowed for the guides to be reamed and not require knurling. As has been brought up, finding these valves for the Y with slightly oversized stems is now difficult by lieu of manufacturers sticking with the fast moving parts end of the business. Daniel probably likes being called SUPREME but the name Supreme Being does get attached to the heavy posters on the board.
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By ALANB - 16 Years Ago
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MR. Co-administrater ; TED ; Iv'e never installed smaller valves as replacements .... and I havn't bought any in recent years , so I'm behind the times especially on price's . Thankyou .... ALAN B .
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