I have to pick my heel off the floor and push with full leg muscles to get a braking response similar to normal braking on my modern cars.  Since I'm a tall guy my leg is bent at an akward angle and driving around town I'm starting to get knee pain.  I'm a very conservative driver and slow down early.

If I really stand on it, I can get the wheels to lock up (I've tried on some country roads) so the brakes are working, but they are just hard.  Sometimes if stopped on even a moderate incline with my foot on the brake the car starts to roll backward and I quickly have to apply more pressure, If I have to stay stopped on the incline for any length of time, the amount of pressure I need to keep on the pedal gets uncomfortable (sorry if I'm sounding a little wussy!)

Since I'm not familiar with what is "normal" for manual drum brakes I'm looking for some feedback/descriptions on what it should be like.  For example, can you typically stop coming down a normal freeway off ramp without picking your heel off the floor?  How does it compare to a modern car with power disc/drum?

Jim

Washington, Ia

When you replaced the master cylinder with the 1968 Bronco do you know what the diameter of the piston in that cylinder is? If the 56 Ford master cylinder piston was 3/4 inch and you replaced it with a Bronco master cylinder piston that is 1 inch then the force required to stop has been INCREASED over 75%. Please do a GOOGLE SEARCH to verify this.

Good luck and tell us whatr you find out. Pete

It sounds like maybe the extra pressure isn't unusual.  It maybe a bit tougher with my ogre legs, I can't push the pedal straight on...I'm coming from the side.

I might have to look into a booster....

Your cars brakes are not "normal" and there is something wrong with them if extreme force is required to make the car stop.

Ford sold a million cars without power brakes just like yours and they all stopped with no issues and no drama.

Along with the diameter of the piston in the Bronco master cylinder are the wheel cylinders you are using also the original size that came with the car? If you drive on a gravel road and lock the brakes do the front brakes apply first and then the rear?

Did you car every have a power brake booster on it?

Keep going to the gym until you fix the problem Pete

Fairlane Bob is on to something, When you turned the drums were you able to "Arc" the shoes to the drums? It is an old processes that mates the shoes to the drum exactly. When we did this to a front engine dragster with rear brakes only, it made a drastic difference in holding and stopping. We also used brake shoes with soft linings. Disk brakes would not hold the car on the starting line when you stalled it. You might have trouble finding a shop that can still do this type of work. Look for older business that have there own brake machines. Good Luck

Pete - The wheel cylinders are all OEM spec parts.  I know you're right that braking effort shouldn't be "extreme", but maybe what feels extreme to me isn't really extreme since I've grown up driving power disc/drum cars my whole life.  It's just not what I'm used to, but maybe I'm just a young "softie" when it comes to pushin' the pedal.   I will do the gravel road test when i get a chance, i was trying to tell on a wet country road the other day but I couldn't tell what was locking up first.

This is why I'm looking for some descriptions I can use to calibrate my experience to other's, for example the effort I need requires my heel lift up off the floorboard when I'm coming down an off ramp.  In my  modern car, my heel is ALWAYS on the ground and I can create enough effort to brake by just pressing with my foot leaving my heel planted.  If someone could confirm whether they leave their heel planted while braking or whether sometimes they need to lift their heel off the floor too, that would help make our descriptions more objective rather than subjective.

I'm guessing maybe Gary is on to something, maybe my car is a little harder becuase the shoes aren't perfectly formed,  but most of what I'm feeling is likely just becuase I'm young and have lived a sheltered life with power brakes.  I drove to work again this morning, and the effort is right on the border of being tollerable, I can stop o.k. I don't feel like I'm dangerous on the road, but if I drove this car much I'd definitly get some new bulging leg muscles!

If someone is in Madison any time this fall, let me know and you can drive my car around and let me know what you think.

Regards,   JLB

Just think positive, you will always have muscular legs.

One question though, how far does the brake pedal travel before you feel pressure? It should have at least 1" or more free travel to work correctly.

Chuck

Cheers

Warren

Chuck, I'd guess that my pedal travels 1-2" before it gets real firm.  The pedal feel is nice as far as travel and firmness.

Park, yep, replaced everything bewteen the pedal and the drum.

Your brakes take too much effort. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THEM. PERIOD.

When these cars were new they were driven by little old ladies who weighed less tha 100 lbs with out a problem.

Something to consider is that the brake shoes have overheated and become "GLAZED" and the co efficient of friction has decreased to the point where you have to exert a great deal of force to stop your car. Do a Google search. Pete

I wonder if the Bronco has a longer pedal, or the distance from the pedal pivot to the master cylinder actuator bolt is shorter than the '56.  Either of these conditions would cause an increase in pedal pressure on your car.  Does the actuator rod enter the master cylinder at an angle, or does it go straight in?  If at an angle, that would indicate the geometry is wrong.

No excessive work required.  Changed this year to ScareBird's disc setup and power booster as one too many brake fades and wanted redundancy of dual master.  In doing so, considered not putting a power booster on and learned of the importance of the diameter on the manual master.

Good luck.

The bronco master cylinder was recommended in other posts on this site.  It is a 1" diameter bore and is a direct fit in the original firewall opening, so the push rod angle is identical to OEM.  Since the master cylinder bore diameter is the same as OEM I can't think of anything else about the master cylinder that would make it not work?  A 1" diameter piston moving the same distance should move the same amount of fluid at the same pressure as the OEM.  The only thing different is that it comes from two different ports instead of one, but since I don't have a proportioning valve there shouldn't have been any bias introduced.

My brake pads are on in the correct order (someone pointed out I had them on backward in some of my earlier brake posts when I was redoing the brake system)

It may have something to do with the pad material like Paul mentions, the older material may have made it easier for thsoe 100 lb little old ladies form Pasadena!  Someone pointed out there is a comany that makes replacement pads out of a different softer material that is supposed to help these old cars stop like the used to...but the downside is the material gets used up faster.

I could also just be that I'm a little whimpy after driving modern cars for the last 17 years.

I've found one trick that helps is to put my heel on the pedal, not my toes, I can get some good pressure then without quite as extreme knee angle (hip to heel length is a little shorter than hip to toe).

I'll keep thinking and considering all of your thoughts. Thanks for all the ideas.  Maybe I'll get a chance to drive someone else's car of this vintage so I can compare, or they could drive mine.

Pete

I'm wondering if you have increased the amount of pressure require as you now have two pistons ie, one for each circuit, that you have doubled the pressure required to stop because you have effectively halved your hydraulic ratio.

I'd do an internet search and try to find out how to calculate hydraulic ratios. I know that the lever ratio's used for your ford are high for power assisted but are low for racing setups that do not use boosters. I checked this out before upgrading my brakes. 

My ex wife used to drive my 56 with non assisted drum brakes and she could barley reach the pedals. she used to wriggle forward to floor the accelerator. She only complained about the steering. (and everything else in life) I found that the car braked well with drums even better that some 70's era cars with power disks. the pedal was never hard although it sometimes needed some muscle to stop quickly.

You may have made a mistake. Personally I would have gone with one of old irsh daves master booster setup there are plenty of posts on these including a current one in technical. For $170 do yourself a favor and upgrade your brakes.

cheers

Warren

Nate, here are some random thoughts i have re your brakes and may not apply to your layout. On some customlines there is a little short rubber brake hose between orig m/cyl and metal brake line, if there, it could be closing on application, restricting flow, but unlikely if you have replumbed to dual circuit m/cyl. OR if using old orig shoes, they could be hardened up now and reccommend going to new relined shoes with current material as mentioned/ is there a pic of the m/cyl and plumbing as it may help. it seems strange 6' or 5' that you have to apply so much pressure for little result. OR Is the rear brake hose clear, they often get hard or soft and can restrict flow to rears and haveing front do all the work. I recently had lincoln brakes pull to left and from expeirence thought the RH side is not working and WAS as i thought blocked RHF brake hose, changed it and 100% perfect.

Keep up your progress.

yyyy