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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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Has anyone had experience converting a 57 Tbird to front disc/drum rear using the OEM power booster? I don't want to relocate the battery. I can't see how to plumb a dual reservoir master cylinder into the system. I have heard of sending power assist to the fronts only and leaving the rear drums attached directly to the master cylinder. I am skeptical about that set up. Also looked at hydroboost but don't want to upgrade to a modern P/S pump because I think the original would be stressed too much.
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By Eddie Paskey - 13 Years Ago
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Hey Mark; i put in an Electric master cylinder in My 55 bird. works great, ABS Brakes. com--- they are in Orange, Cal. Also have Mitchishi power steering box with remote resevier. Also using John mummert's brackets and small GM pump. Good road feel and very comfortable-- not too fast. Hope this helps God Bless Eddie
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By miker - 13 Years Ago
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I did that conversion some years ago, and the booster on the front only worked fine, with a separate proportioning valve to the rear. If I remember the explanation correctly, it has to do with higher pressure for the disc as they do not "self energize" as the drums do. I think a Volvo I owned in the late 60's did that from the factory. I also know someone who's used the electric brake boost, and they thought highly of it also.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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Miker,
I am leaning toward a set up like yours. What I don't quite understand yet is how the dual braking system is applied to it. That is, with a dual reservoir master cylinder, there are actually two braking circuits, front and rear. If the pressure is lost in one of the brake systems, front or the rear, the proportioning valve should move to isolate the leaking system and maintain fluid pressure for the other brakes. That is the reason I want the dual system. Have you plumbed yours this way?
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By miker - 13 Years Ago
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I'm going to try to get this right, but it's been a while. Most disc/drum masters have a large and a small reservoir. That's because the disc require more fluid volume to work than the drums do. These are normally run to a "combination valve" that contains both a residual pressure valve (10lbs drum/2lbs disc), a switch (which when pushed off center) gives a warning light of system failure, and sometimes a proportionting valve to control pressure, typically to the rear. These aren't adjustable, they're preset for an individual vehicle. I used an adjustable proportioning valve to the rear when I went to rear disc (don't waste your money like I did). When I had the drums in back, I used a kit from one of the t bird guys, and they did the engineering on the combination valve. The front disc brake circuit went in and out of the booster in it's stock location, and the rears went straight to the drums. It seemed like it had a little more rear brake than I needed, but it worked fine and I drove it for years with no problems. I have no idea how you calculate which comb. valve you need, but I suspect that an early Mustang would be close, at least in my case, as the kit had modified Granada disc and Mustang calipers. It fit the stock spindle using different bearings and races that came with it. There may be better solutions out there now, as this was at least 10 years ago. but like I said, it worked fine for years, and if the rears locked up too badly, I could have always put a second adjustable valve in that line and turned them down. I don't know if there would be a problem with two valves in line, but since iI never did it, I didn't find out. I know Larry's thunderbird still sell these, and probably Casco and others, so shipping is the main price difference. If you're in Texas, I think Amos Minter installs a kit, and they will either sell it or refer you to their supplier, who's name is escaping me.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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Miker,
I think we are on the right track. In the Ford combination block (valve) is a pressure differential valve. This maintains correct hydraulic pressure needed for the front and rear brakes; disc/drum or disc/disc or drum/drum. This valve's position is normally centered to allow fluid pressure from both reservoirs of the master cylinder to pass through the ports in the combination valve to the front and rear brakes independently unless the pressure on one side is lost. For example the if a wheel cylinder on a rear brake blows out, the pressure differential valve will move from pressure on the front side of the valve to block the port going to the rear brakes. This closes off pressure from the rear brake reservoir of the master cylinder and keeps the hydraulic pressure in the master cylinder and allows the front brakes to operate as normal. This kind of system was mandated in the late 60's for all car manufacturers. There is a brake warning switch threaded into the valve which lights the brake warning indicator on the dash when the valve moves to one side due to pressure loss to one of the systems. There is a tool to keep this valve centered when doing brake bleeding and/or brake work. I still have mine from when I was an apprentice. For brake work, the warning switch is removed before any brake line is opened and this small tool threads into the same hole where the brake warning switch sits. The tool has a small shaft on the end that will hold the valve in the normal centered position so it doesn't shift when the brake lines are opened for bleeding or parts replacement. What I didn't see in the Tbird kits being sold was anything to accomplish this safety issue. There was no pressure differential valve to save the brakes if a wheel cylinder or caliper failed losing pressure. A simple proportioning valve doesn't do this as far as I can tell. I talked with a couple vendors several years ago and they really didn't understand or didn't want to talk about it. I have used the Ford combo valve for disc conversions on both my 65 Galaxie and 66 F100. I am trying to figure out how to plumb one of these into the TBird with power brakes on the front only and manual on the rears. I am not sure if the added power function to the fronts only would upset the balance in the pressure differential valve or not.
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By Jim Rowe - 13 Years Ago
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I used the 10 psi residual valve for the rear drums.
recommended 2 psi for the front disc brakes.
I only used the rear valve. My car has great stopping power with a good pedal feel. No power boost is needed.
Here is a link for the rear valve, they also have the 2 psi front.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Drum-Brake-Residual-Valves-10-PSI,7502.html
Jim
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By miker - 13 Years Ago
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Mark, my current set up is disc/disc, and does not have a comb. valve, just an adjustable to the rear circuit. The old disc/drum is stored somewhere, but as I remember it had the switch, but I never connected a warning light. I've lost the brakes a couple times over the years (other cars), and you know immediately that something is wrong as stopping takes on a whole new meaning (panic, resulting in pushing real hard and then stopping). These were unmodified factory systems, including the Volvo. Since the booster comes after the master, I don't think it would have had an effect on the "fail" switch, but I'm on thin ground here as my engineering skill isn't that hot.
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By MoonShadow - 13 Years Ago
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Brake failure is the reason the parking brake function should be a higher priority than many of us make it. That "emergency brake" can be a savior. Chuck
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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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Miker,
I could remove the original Midland power booster and use a Bendix Dual reservoir master cylinder/booster. The Tbird vendors have them for about $600 or I also could remove the stock booster for a manual brake arrangement and use a dual reservoir master with the Ford combination valve for either set up. This would give me the safety of having the dual system in case of failure. I want to use the original Midland booster to keep the Bird as stock appearing as possible but having the advantage of "modern" power disc/drum brakes as well as the safety. I drive the Coastal Mountains here and each time I start down a steep hill , I cringe at the thought of a wheel cylinder giving up, etc. The Ford combination block is an obsolete part from the dealer. They sold out of the left over stock quickly. I have found some aftermarket suppliers who make them.
http://www.autokrafters.com/v4/go.gnf?session=732bc62f4ca94c27a573a90d8185cd9f&s=autokrafters&t=&n=default&d=products&show_product_id=853162&product=23841
I used one of the last Ford valves on my Galaxie and an junkyard piece on the F100. They junkyard parts have to be untampered with. If they have been open to the weather; master cylinder cover left off and the system drained of fluid, corrosion and contamination gets in. Rule of thumb is to pick a car with similar weight and wheelbase to salvage from. I used 79 Thunderbird stuff on my Galaxie and 76 F150 parts on the 66 F100, both work great.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 13 Years Ago
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MoonShadow (7/14/2011)
Brake failure is the reason the parking brake function should be a higher priority than many of us make it. That "emergency brake" can be a savior. Chuck
I have a set of NOS brake cables put away (just in case the originals ever need to be replaced), as I understand the repro parts have cheaply made housings and may not be sturdy enough to stop the car in an emergency.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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Got a nice set of complete Granada spindles/calipers/rotor assemblies today. Will take them apart and clean them up with new loaded calipers, rotors, bearings and races. It is getting frustrating being what feels like the only Y Blocker around the Bay Area. I need to find someone in at least a couple hundred miles who can correctly do the reaming with the most drop. l may stop by Roy Brizio's shop in South SF. They are next door to Sanderson Headers. My intention is to use a power brake disc/drum master cylinder running the rear M/C reservoir brake line to a Ford Combination valve, the front M/C reservoir line to the Midland booster and then to Combo valve. Then routing the lines from the Combo valve to the front and rear brakes.
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By MoonShadow - 13 Years Ago
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You will get a kick out of Roy Brizio. He is a real car guy. You may have to wait a bit if hes busy but he can be very helpful. Chuck
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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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Chuck,
I have been to Sanderson's several times in the last year or two but haven't set foot in Brizio's shop. Often I can't get past the parking area in front; amazing cars being built, fired up, dropped off or being picked up by customers, etc. Seems like Brizio is always busy, especially this time of year with the West Coast Street Rod Nationals in Pleasanton next month. High buck stuff being built for high rollers. Not my thing or pay grade but very interesting.
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By Don Woodruff - 13 Years Ago
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Bob Walker of Thunderbirds one sells a complete bolt on setup for T birds with and without PB http://ctci.org/vendors/walker.php It is a bolt on, all tubing, brake lines, rear wheel cylinders, etc included. Yes it is a few bucks but if your time and mileage is worth anything its probably a wash and you have all new parts properly engineered.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 13 Years Ago
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It is a good option for a bolt-on kit for use with the original spindles. Along with that, the safety issue regarding the true dual brake system is finally addressed. I don't recognize what kind of calipers are included and what the replacement pads would be. I also couldn't locate a price for the kits on his webpage. Having lines ready to go is very convenient and takes a lot of work out of the change. For those like me doing it the hard way, using the Granada stuff (I want to drop the front down), I recommend looking at the Poly-Armour hand bendable lines that come in several lengths. I used them on my Galaxie. Worked very well.
http://www.agscompany.com/faq/10
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By Don Woodruff - 13 Years Ago
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Mine was $1200 delivered for everything, drip tray, proportioning valve, mechanical brake light switch, all of the options.
I think the setup for power brakes runs about $100 more. Bob is a good guy to deal with.He has or at least did have a 57 with a Mark 8 4.6L engine in it. It was featured in a magizine write up about 10 or so years ago. All of the replacement parts are defined in the paperwork and boxes you get.
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By MoonShadow - 13 Years Ago
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Anybody know about this guy? Cheapest I've seen and claims new parts. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200631123841&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Chuck
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By Don Woodruff - 13 Years Ago
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There is still a lot to buy with that kit. Need 15 inch wheels designed for disc brakes, proportioning setup, rear wheel cyl., all lines ande brake hoses, master cyl, etc. etc.
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By Lotsafords - 12 Years Ago
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I have installed several PB systems on baby birds as well as other 50's fords all utilizing the original PB booster and master cylinder. Simply remove the check valve from the master cylinder, install the residual valves as indicated by others ( I don't use a porportioning valve) flush and bleed. Adjustment and being sure you have no leaks is the secret.
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By slumlord444 - 12 Years Ago
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Did you use Granada parts or an aftermarket kit?
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By Lotsafords - 12 Years Ago
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I've used kits from ABS power brake and DC Enterprises (also known as Drop n Stop?), both were complete and required little or no modification. Jack
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