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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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It's the last one of the season and it looks like it's going to rain. But I finally got anchors in position so I can install a lap belt. Three point belts will be installed ultimately.
I'm not expecting anything blistering. It's not quite tuned and it's been running very cold. It doesn't seem to get much above 140, while moving, with things cooling down. It gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I don't quite get that. Hopefully I'll be able to idle long enough to get it up to temperature before making a pass. If not I'll just have to limit my fun.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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Charlie - dunno what's going on with this site but it "clocked me out" the last two times I tried to answer - so here goes again: Is the 140° on your cab gauge or a test instrument at the thermostat housing? I would suggest using an infared tester and shooting for 180° at the housing. The "cowboy way' of adjusting this (on my F-150 with heavy duty cooling - in Wyoming) was to run a cool summer thermostat - and a piece of cardboard to otherwise adjust airflow to the weather. When the trailer was on - the baffle went behind the seat - and when it was -30°F I damn near covered the whole radiator.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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It is 140 on my in cab mechanical gauge, with the sender installed in the stock location of the driver side head. I have a buddy with an infrared thermometer. I'll check it out. The thermostat is a 180 Robert Shaw style. In the summer it will get up to about 160 when moving.
My old engine didn't run this cold. I would have expected this new one to run hotter. The gauge was the same, too. The summer time characteristic is about the same between the two. It's almost like the radiator is too big. Idling it will get hot but I don't have a shroud.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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I'm guessing, but probably the old engine didn't have as wide open a thermostat - and maybe didn't have the same sort of idle spark advance? Are you using the manifold vacuum spark advance source or the ported? Are you running one of Frank's water pumps? On my outfit, the opening point of the thermostat (160° Stewart/Robertshaw style) can be seen pretty clearly with the infared gun even with the three extra "pressure equalization holes". It seems to take a bit longer than it used to with the small poppet thermostat and no holes. So far....my extended "burn down" idle tests keep showing the engine to want to idle at 100° over ambient - it just hasn't gotten below 60° to check the obvious limit......but maybe another month will get me some testing weather. This is a rehtorical question - but does the stocker Y waterpump flow more water than the T-birds do with the 1" front cover spacer? If your truck has a bit more circulation flow pressure - and the three equalization holes in the thermostat are letting enough water circulate - and the ambient is low - and the spark advance at idle is up there a bit......?
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Good Guess.
The old engine had the usual cheap thermostat. Idle advance is currently at 10 on the new and was 12 on the old. The advance curve is the same - same distributor. I'm using manifold vacuum. I'm running one of Frank's pumps and timing cover. My thermostat came with no bypass holes and I haven't drilled it.
Oh, I should see if the radiator is hot when I get home and feel the hose. If it is, then the thermostat must have opened. I don't know if any kind of convection currents could occur in the system but surely it would not be effective enough to keep it that cool. No it can't be.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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Idle advance 10° - is that with the vacuum pot disconnected? Must be. When you hook up the manifold vacuum line, any idea how high it goes? (still at idle) Using live manifold vacuum advance at idle cools things off a good bit. If I swap mine over to "ported vacuum" the temp goes up immediately.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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That's 10 without vacuum. With vacuum it's about 11 - I haven't adjusted it properly yet. At idle, sitting still, like in traffic, it will get hot. It cools down when it's moving.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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Seems to me that idle advance with the vacuum connected ought ot be well over 20° - if you've got any sort of manifold vacuum - despite the cam... The higher efficiency pump and larger thermostat opening may just be the whole difference - regardless of gauge accuracy.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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I have the vacuum pot adjusted so that it is just barely advancing at idle. I just haven't played with it much yet.
Those are the only significant changes made to the cooling system so they could be the reason. I'll get a hold of my friends thermometer. If it's around 180 near the thermostat then it probably isn't anything to be concerned with.
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By 46yblock - 16 Years Ago
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Charlie, your cool engine temperature seems identical to my experience the past two years. The radiator was a big stock 4 row. Thermostat a 180 Robert Shaw. Motor would not get above 165 in the hotest weather, unless the truck was moving less than 10 mph or idling. In the cool fall it did not get above 150 when underway. In the winter top temp was 150 even after long idle periods, with the electric fan OFF. Gauge is an Autometer, and the temp was verified by thermometer at the radiator, and pyrometer at thermostat housing and back of head. Hopefully this will all be fixed when the new motor goes in place, which has a much improved CR that should generate more heat. Also ready to install is a smaller 2 row aluminum radiator.
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By pegleg - 16 Years Ago
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Chas, If the gage turns out to be OK, try another thermostat. If it's rated at 180, and if it actually closes below that, you ought to see at least 180 in the head.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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The gauge should be alright. I've had 2 of them and both read the same. They are made in China so who knows how accurate they really are. Didn't notice the made in china part until I had the installed the 2nd.
I put my hand on the radiator core this morning once I got to work. It felt maybe luke warm, if that. Even at 140 it should burn after a few seconds if water is flowing through. The upper radiator hose was hot, though. Is it possible to sustain a low operating temperature without requiring the radiator if the ambient temperature is low enough? Say 50 ambient.
The radiator is a reproduction heavy duty unit. It's a good sized radiator. Much larger than the ones in pickups I've seen at the junk yards. My old engine, while it ran hotter than this one, still ran colder than I thought it should. It would get around 160 with a 180 stat but that seemed to be all year round.
I will posit that the water is going through the radiator and the radiator is too effective when full airflow is applied. The result is magnified with lower ambient temperatures.
When I put my hand on it, I could barely feel any air being pulled through so it is no wonder why it gets hot if it just sits and idles. Need a shroud.
Still need to get the thermometer.
It's a 50% chance of rain tonight.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Well, it rained. That's Murphy for you.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Going back to your temperature gauge reading cooler than you expected: Having the temperature sending unit at the back of the engine will typically net a lower gauge reading than the thermostat rating due to the water at the rear of the engine not being fully heated by lieu of not having travelled forward yet through the heads. Moving the sending unit to a position right behind the thermostat will give a higher temperature reading without changing anything else on the engine.
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By pcmenten - 16 Years Ago
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Your problem might be the heater core. It might be cooling the engine enough to prevent it from allowing the thermostat to open up. You might need to put a restrictor in the heater hose to slow the flow of coolant.
In my 86 Mustang there was a heater hose restrictor. It was a round metal rod with a 1/4" hole through it. My heater still works with this restrictor in it, so that's not a problem.
When I went through my Mustang's cooling system, I put in a cleaned 2 row radiator, a new Ford heater core, a Ford Mustang 'export' water pump, a Robertshaw 180 thermostat, synthetic motor oil, and water wetter with a 2:1 water/coolant mixture. It ran too cold and the engine's computer wouldn't come out of open-loop mode. I put in a jobber 195 thermostat from the local Schlocks/Cracker auto parts store that is pretty flaky, but gets it up to temp.
I need to get a Robertshaw 195 put in there some day.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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The infrared says its about 190 in the thermostat housing. The gauge, being that it's made in china, is probably crap. The inlet of the water pump was reading about 155. No way it cools once back inside the engine. So, I'm probably good. Need to check it again in the summer. If the gauge reads hotter, I wonder if it actually is hotter.
I still don't think I should be able to touch the radiator core without burning my hand, though.
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By Unibodyguy - 16 Years Ago
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Charlie, had a simular problem this spring with my truck. After doing a bunch of different things, it ended up being the constant voltage regulator behind the speedo, replaced it and it was very accurate after that comparing it to a borrowed inferred gun I used. But in your case I don't think its that if your able to put your hands on it without getting burnt. One thing too Steve we used to do in Wisconsin growing up insted of cardboard, we'd just take the fan off all together, just wouldn't let it idle too long! Michael
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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Charlie: An added note. The temp sensors on the end of your arms, for most people, 130 degrees is about the limit you can stand to leave your hands on something hot, it's uncomfortable but not painful at that temp. Above that it starts getting painful. Just a rule of thumb (pun intended), differs with some folks. John
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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That's interesting. I would have thought the pain threshold is lower than that. It feels much cooler than that, though. In some spots it feels like it may be slightly above ambient. I'll shoot the infrared on the core to see what it says. I haven't gone around touching radiator cores before. I wonder what the car is like.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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Charlie: You are probably not touching the tubes with the hot water in them, you are touching the fins which help dissapate the heat. The hottest part of the radiator would be the area where the top hose goes into it. John
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By ALANB - 16 Years Ago
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ONE totally forgotten feature of a thermostat , and there is a wide range in the qualitys , Even a Harrison may be made in China in todays world !! BUT , A thermostat must hold the coolant back in the block long enough to absorb all the heat around the cylinders . O.k. we know this , But if it flows to rapidly , It will leave hot spots and not dissapate thru the radiator fins ... I learned this in trucking ..... ALAN B .
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By Fred - 14 Years Ago
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Frank's Water Pumps: Are they high efficiency? Where does one get one? 
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By Fred - 14 Years Ago
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What is a Frank's Water Pump and where does one get one?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 14 Years Ago
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I think Frank may be out of the waterpump business these days - unless he sold that work to someone else. I believe his design had an improved impeller - Mummert may be the new proprietor? The Thunderbird versions of the Y have a one inch spacer under the pump that plays hell with the ability of the pump impeller to be very efficient. Passenger cars don't have the spacer. If you are working on a bird - or have room for the spacer - CASCO sells a pump with additional impeller capacity added - and I believe they also offer the service of fitting stocker pumps with the upsized impeller. Their site has some interesting test data concerning the flow capacity of thermostats and pumps that is worth looking at anyway. Concours sells a smaller diameter pulley that will speed up the stock pump relative to crank speed ($100) ......and somewhere in the past on here is a thread where I showed how to use a 289/302 single groove on a bird to crank it even faster. The t-birds not only suffer from the pump spacer - but they also have a bit smaller radiator than the passenger cars. link http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic35079-3-1.aspx?Highlight=pump+bypass
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By BrianL - 14 Years Ago
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I have one of the improved impeller water pumps that Steve mentions above. What Casco did was to use some galvanized sheet metal to make larger impellers & rivet it on. I had previously tried a water pump cavity block off plate & it had the effect of increasing my temps (not what I was looking for). The test data that Steve mentions on the Casco site is a good read & also confirms my finding of the backer plate. I also have the smaller pulley mentioned.
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By webconst - 14 Years Ago
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I had 2 T-Bird radiator cores made by this company in 1976 (Mancum-Manufacturing Co., Atlanta & Houston). At that time they had to make the dies to stamp the 4 staggered rows for 1/2 inch tubes in headers and fins. All copper and brass with 12 fins per inch. Installed one of them in my '57 T-Bird. Engine 30 over, heads cut 30, 5 blade clutch fan and 180 degree thermostat. My wife and I drove to T-Bird convention in Dallas in June, 1978; air conditioner ran all the way with temps up to 107 degrees. (15 day trip) We experienced no overheating problems. I credit this to the quality and design of the radiator. I do not know if this company is still in business, maybe interested members could research it. Charlie, Central Fl.  
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