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By RossL - Last Year
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It seems like the fuel might be draining out of the carb when the car (1955 Thunderbird 292 stock carb and fuel pump) is not started for a few days. I don't want to install an electric fuel pump. I ordered a check valve that mounts to the fuel pump. Has anyone used the check valve? Any other possible fixes besides the valve and electric pump?
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By paul2748 - Last Year
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I get this all the time. Stock 56 carb and a couple of Edelbrocks.
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By Litshoot - Last Year
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Constant issue for me in south Florida, im thinking its evaporation since its not as much of an issue now that were getting cold. i hard mounted a flow through fuel pump in the flex line between frame and mechanical fuel pump. its like 1.5 psi and since its hard mounted its really loud so i can hear when the floats close. just put a switch on dash for now. i had the parts laying around but when i looked it was around 40 for everything.
Seth
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By Ted - Last Year
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This is just my opinion so other opinions always welcome. The carburetor is not draining back. I can say that with confidence knowing that the needle and seat assembly is positioned above the fuel level. My experience is that the ethanol laden fuels simply evaporate much more quickly than the older non-ethanol fuels. The premium grade is what I use in my carbureted vehicles simply due to it having only 3-5% ethanol versus the 87-89 octane fuels which have 10% ethanol.
My ’50 with its original flathead has a similar issue in that the carburetor dries up after just a few days of not running. The fix for it was an electric pulse fuel pump with a toggle switch to push fuel to the carburetor before attempting to start the engine. Other than the electric pump being used for this purpose, the power to the fuel pump is kept in the off position for normal running.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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Correct.
A BIRD runs hot because of poor engine compartment ventilation (mainly). When the engine is shut-off, it experiences heat soak (coolant is not circulating) and the fuel is boiled out of the fuel bowls. And there is also evaporation happening as there is no EVAP SYS. Ethanol laced gasoline has a lower boiling point than E0 gasoline.
An electric primer pump is the easiest way out. If initiated by a toggle switch, use a spring loaded return to OFF position in case you forget.
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By paul2748 - Last Year
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Do I understand that you have the electric pump in the engine compartment ? To me , that is playing with fire.
Litshoot (11/21/2024)
Constant issue for me in south Florida, im thinking its evaporation since its not as much of an issue now that were getting cold. i hard mounted a flow through fuel pump in the flex line between frame and mechanical fuel pump. its like 1.5 psi and since its hard mounted its really loud so i can hear when the floats close. just put a switch on dash for now. i had the parts laying around but when i looked it was around 40 for everything. Seth
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By RossL - Last Year
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Ted (11/21/2024)
This is just my opinion so other opinions always welcome. The carburetor is not draining back. I can say that with confidence knowing that the needle and seat assembly is positioned above the fuel level. My experience is that the ethanol laden fuels simply evaporate much more quickly than the older non-ethanol fuels. The premium grade is what I use in my carbureted vehicles simply due to it having only 3-5% ethanol versus the 87-89 octane fuels which have 10% ethanol. My ’50 with its original flathead has a similar issue in that the carburetor dries up after just a few days of not running. The fix for it was an electric pulse fuel pump with a toggle switch to push fuel to the carburetor before attempting to start the engine. Other than the electric pump being used for this purpose, the power to the fuel pump is kept in the off position for normal running.
I agree with Ted, but I've read in a couple of places, various people stating that fuel is going from the carb (because it's higher than the tank) back to the tank. But it does not make sense that the fuel can get by a "closed needle/seat" Hopefully next week I will run the car, take the lid off the carb and see how much fuel is in the bowl and how long it stays there. I beleive there is a check valve in the fuel pump that should block the fuel from feeding back into the tank.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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Consider it this way ...
The car engine shuts down. Immediate heat soak as there is no air circulation or coolant circulation. The fuel (E-10) begins to boil and is released through the vents as a gas. The floats drop and the pressurized fuel in the fuel line expands and enters the fuel bowls.
Most likely the valves in the pump are not opening/closing correctly due to the effects of the ethanol fuel. It is also most likely fouled (as will be the carb) due to zinc oxide and only who knows what is coming out of the tank.
You cannot use a phenolic carb spacer due to hood clearance (BIRD).
Before start, remove the ACL and look into the carb venturies and see if fuel is puddled on the throttle blades (and most likely the intake manifold plenum floor). Move the throttle linkage and see if any fuel is shot (accel pump). No shot, either the bowls are empty or a bad accel pump.
So you crank the engine hoping for a quick prime. You are abusing the starter with extended cranking and there is also no ignition advance retard feature (to allow easier cranking). That pretty ACL acts as a tent retaining the engine heat around the carb and further exasperating the problem(s).
So, the only true way out is with an electric pump, either primer or transfer (tank to mechanical pump) (ideally with return fuel line for cooler fuel) and a clean fuel system with the proper fuel conditioner. The fuel curve has to be adjusted correctly also (larger jets).
Today's' fuel(s) are formulated for EFI and EVAP, not carburetion.
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By Daniel Jessup - Last Year
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100% agree with Kultulz, have found the exact same problems when using E10 gasoline.
Interestingly enough, I recently posted this video https://youtu.be/W88wjkI7UJE. (Aviation gasoline in my 1955 Ford Fairlane, 292 Y Block, Summit Carburetor, mechanical fuel pump)
I ran aviation gasoline for a few months in my old Ford just for kicks and gave a report on what I found. That all may be old news for some, but I enjoyed doing it and learned a lot on my own. One of the benefits of running fuel that has no ethanol is that you do not have the issues of fuel boiling/evaporating out of the carburetor bowls. The engine fires right up every time. Plus, I can let the car sit as long as I want to (within reason) - that gasoline's formula has some longevity and does not break down easily. It is certainly not formulated to run in automotive engines but you can do it in a pinch.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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And there is also the problem of ethanol gasoline experiencing phase separation, during transport, station storage tanks, the vehicle fuel tank and it's occurring using a mechanical fuel pump.
Also, it will eat a cellulose fuel filter leading to carb contamination. Think a scintered bronze filter.
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By RossL - Last Year
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Daniel Jessup (11/23/2024)
100% agree with Kultulz, have found the exact same problems when using E10 gasoline. Interestingly enough, I recently posted this video https://youtu.be/W88wjkI7UJE. (Aviation gasoline in my 1955 Ford Fairlane, 292 Y Block, Summit Carburetor, mechanical fuel pump) I ran aviation gasoline for a few months in my old Ford just for kicks and gave a report on what I found. That all may be old news for some, but I enjoyed doing it and learned a lot on my own. One of the benefits of running fuel that has no ethanol is that you do not have the issues of fuel boiling/evaporating out of the carburetor bowls. The engine fires right up every time. Plus, I can let the car sit as long as I want to (within reason) - that gasoline's formula has some longevity and does not break down easily. It is certainly not formulated to run in automotive engines but you can do it in a pinch.
Very hard to find non ethanol fuel in NJ. Last trime I looked there might have been a handful of stations selling it and none were close to me
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By paul2748 - Last Year
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All these problems that people are talking about, I don't understand. I've used 10 % for maybe 30 years . Here in NJ it is about the only thing you can get. Never, never, experienced any of the problems mentioned other than having to crank the engine a little more after it has been sitting a while. The fuel I put in in October still starts the car ok in April WITH NO ADDITIVES LIKE sta bil or sea foam. In fact, my son, who had a street rod, used Sta Bill one year and it completely fouled up the carb.. Never had a problem before and after that happened.
I know enough that rubber parts have to be the type for ethanol or you have problems but that should be way in the past by now. since it has been mentioned tons of times.
Does the car run as efficiently with 10 %. For all I have heard, no, but is there that much difference. ?
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By miker - Last Year
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Paul, in most cases my experience is the same. But I’ve had a couple exceptions. My standby generator plugged up from the ethanol rotting the fuel hose. No doubt about it. The carb was full of rubber particles and a q tip in the hose looked like it was dipped in liquid rubber.
But I’ve also had a modern EFI engine lay down over 5000 rpm (small motor. 7500 redline). Fresh fuel cured it, and my F code clone, down in Tucson was worse. 4 months over the hot summer, it wouldn’t idle. It’s got the bonnet for the blower, choke milled off, kind of got to wet it down and then turn the ignition on. It would start, but wouldn’t idle without turning the screw up. Again, fresh fuel cured it immediately.
So I think the ethanol problem varies a bit with environment, both humidity and temperatures.
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By ian57tbird - Last Year
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I prime my carb, pouring a little fuel onto the secondary butterflies before I start, if the Tbird has been sitting for more than a week.
I even lift the bonnet/hood when I park it back in the workshop after a run, but that doesn't help.
It's not just ethanol, because we don't have it in our fuel.
I was putting it down to the 465cfm Holley with the vent on the bowl.
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By HazardTBird - Last Year
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KULTULZ (11/21/2024)
An electric primer pump is the easiest way out. If initiated by a toggle switch, use a spring loaded return to OFF position in case you forget.
Ku;tulz:
That's a good idea, left mine on before
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By alanfreeman - Last Year
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I don't know how much ethanol is in the gasoline in California but in the 40+ years that I have owned 50's Fords and Mercurys I have always had to prime the carburetors of these cars to start them after they sit for more than a few days, even before ethanol was being added. I have two cars with "modern" Holley carbs, one with a stock Holley "teapot" 4 bbl. and one with a stock Holley 2 bbl. The cars with the "modern" Holleys seem to start O.K. even after sitting for a week or so but need to be primed after sitting 1-2 weeks. The two cars with the original carbs always need to be primed to start after sitting more than a few days. All of my cars have stock original type AC mechanical dual action fuel pumps, a couple of them installed decades ago and I have never had a problem with fuel pump failure. I just accept that my cars usually need to be primed after they sit between start ups and they always fire right up on the 1st or second crank.
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By RossL - Last Year
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alanfreeman (11/25/2024)
I don't know how much ethanol is in the gasoline in California but in the 40+ years that I have owned 50's Fords and Mercurys I have always had to prime the carburetors of these cars to start them after they sit for more than a few days, even before ethanol was being added. I have two cars with "modern" Holley carbs, one with a stock Holley "teapot" 4 bbl. and one with a stock Holley 2 bbl. The cars with the "modern" Holleys seem to start O.K. even after sitting for a week or so but need to be primed after sitting 1-2 weeks. The two cars with the original carbs always need to be primed to start after sitting more than a few days. All of my cars have stock original type AC mechanical dual action fuel pumps, a couple of them installed decades ago and I have never had a problem with fuel pump failure. I just accept that my cars usually need to be primed after they sit between start ups and they always fire right up on the 1st or second crank.
From my observation It looks like the Teapot might not hold as much fuel as a modern carb. I never measured how my much it holds but the float bowl appears to be smaller than an Edelbrock.
I've got enough to do so if this is "normal" I am not going to sweat it. I am just used to having my cars start as soon as I turn the ignition to the start position unless they are sitting for a could of weeks.... This carb seems to need extra cranking after a few days
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By alanfreeman - Last Year
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I don't even bother cranking my starter and running my battery down on any of my cars that have been sitting for more than a few days. As a routine, I just prime the carbs with a little gas, reinstall the air cleaner and they always start right up.
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By RossL - Last Year
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From a tech at Daytona Carb Parts:
It is a common problem with modern gasoline. It evaporates rapidly, and after a day or two there is no gas in the float bowl, or the fuel line from the pump. There is no cure for this issue; however by changing your method of starting the engine, you can try this. After the vehicle has set for a day or two, DO NOT TOUCH THE GAS PEDAL! Turn on the ignition switch, and then crank the engine over for 10-15 seconds. It will not hurt the starter, but allow the fuel pump time to refill the float bowl on the carburetor. Then give the gas pedal a pump or two and usually it will start right up. Also, make sure that you are NOT using the mechanical pump with a electric pump as a booster, or have any kind of fuel filter before the fuel pump! This is a NO-NO, and will cause issues. Also, the use of modern "high octane 91" gas will make the matter worse, as it has a very low boiling point and will evaporate faster. Your engine does NOT require any kind of modern high octane gasoline, and will run fine on normal 87 octane.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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By paul2748 - Last Year
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Another thing. There was a period that I had problems with 56 and the car sat for almost three years w/o being started. Once I found out what the trouble was (bad ignition parts over and over again) the car restarted okay and it ran fine with some almost i year old 10 %. Because I am paranoid, I sent the carb out for rebuild just in case - and the rebuilder said it was clean as a whistle- no deposits.
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By FORD DEARBORN - Last Year
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This plate has a quantity of 87octane 10% alcohol on a hot and very humid day. The fuel was relatively cool from evaporation and became a good condenser. It was interesting to watch the water combine with the alcohol and form beads on the bottom of the container. This is what destroys carburetors like the one Kultulz posted. This fuel sample had far more exposure area than fuel in a carburetor but over time, this will happen. 
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By cokefirst - Last Year
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I purchased my first 1955 Thunderbird in the summer of 1969. Long before ethanol fuel, unleaded fuel, etc. So, with leaded, non ethanol fuel, the problem was still there, but maybe jus not quite as bad. If you run these cars in a hot climate, you are going to boil the fuel out of the carburetor bowl. Ford tried to solve this problem by equipping the 1955 and 1956 Thunderbirds with a thicker carburetor base gasket. The 1955 gasket was actually 5 regular gaskets stapled together! The 1956 model had a single thick gasket.
There are phenolic blocks made but you need to be careful that it is not too thick as there is very little clearance between the carburetor and the hood on these vehicles. Many owners put an electric fuel pump in line and wire it to a switch. They turn on the pump 30 seconds before startup and then shut it off once the vehicle starts. This is the pleasure of working with 68 year old technology.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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"Long before ethanol fuel, unleaded fuel, etc. So, with leaded, non ethanol fuel, the problem was still there, but maybe jus not quite as bad. If you run these cars in a hot climate, you are going to boil the fuel out of the carburetor bowl.
Ford tried to solve this problem by equipping the 1955 and 1956 Thunderbirds with a thicker carburetor base gasket. The 1955 gasket was actually 5 regular gaskets stapled together! The 1956 model had a single thick gasket.
There are phenolic blocks made but you need to be careful that it is not too thick as there is very little clearance between the carburetor and the hood on these vehicles."
All true ...
Water has always been a problem, even before ethanol laced gasoline. Rusting out of tanks and metal lines was common.
If you remember, pumps had the filter(s) in the glass fuel bowl beneath the pump body (and usually a petcock on the bottom of the fuel tank to drain collected water).
9365 was the actual filter/strainer and 9360 was a magnet (to catch rust particulate from rusted tanks) to prevent (hopefully) early fouling of the filter itself.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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DANIEL JESSUP POSTED -
"Interestingly enough, I recently posted this video https://youtu.be/W88wjkI7UJE. (Aviation gasoline in my 1955 Ford Fairlane, 292 Y Block, Summit Carburetor, mechanical fuel pump)".
Now that is an excellent write-up!
More informative than most professionally written tech articles ...
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By cokefirst - Last Year
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I enjoyed the reverends video on aviation fuel. I noticed the 2 MPG increase in fuel economy. Is that same increase gained is you use regular unleaded non-ethanol fuel such as available in most states? I know this fuel is available in Nevada at selected stations. I would be curious to know if there is any advantage of traveling there and buying a 100 gallons to use in my classic cars. I have always been told that using a higher octane fuel in a car that is not high compression is a waste of money. So I am wondering if just the elimination of the ethanol is a factor in increased fuel economy?
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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" I noticed the 2 MPG increase in fuel economy. Is that same increase gained is you use regular unleaded non-ethanol fuel such as available in most states?
I am wondering if just the elimination of the ethanol is a factor in increased fuel economy?
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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"I noticed the 2 MPG increase in fuel economy. Is that same increase gained is you use regular unleaded non-ethanol fuel such as available in most states?
I am wondering if just the elimination of the ethanol is a factor in increased fuel economy?
This should explain it - https://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Ethanoluse.htm
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By Daniel Jessup - Last Year
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Sorry fellas, been in the kitchen (and at the table) lately... also took a trip to Solvang, California, a quaint little Danish town that happened to be very nice.
On the fuel mileage increase - my fault for not clarifying. That was indeed an increase over running the non-ethanol gas. (89 octane)
Your comments and own findings are much appreciated. On the ethanol fuel and my experiment a few years back with that temporary glass cylinder fuel filter... it was very evident to me what the fuel was doing. I do have another clip of running pure gas and the fuel not boiling/staying full in the filter/etc. I did have that clip in the extended version, just disregard some of the temporary setup I had under the hood there, it all did not last long. That video is here: https://vimeo.com/354777491
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By Ted - Last Year
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Probably a bit off the original topic here but here are the comments I made regarding the BTU content and its effect on fuel mileage posted awhile back.
Using 19000 BTU/lb for gasoline and 12500 BTU/lb for ethanol, you end up with a 3½% reduction in energy at the 10% ethanol content levels. If using 45 MJ/kg for gasoline and 25MJ/kg for the energy density of ethanol, then at the 10% ethanol content you lose 4½% of the energy density. With a reduction in energy content, there will be a reduction in the fuel economy per gallon.
Supporting this was my 4 cylinder Ranger pickup that typically lost 1½-2 MPG when using the 10% ethanol blended gasoline versus non-ethanol blended gasoline. While I have not run any ethanol versus non-ethanol tests on my 272 Y, it has seen a decrease in the fuel mileage since the premium fuel I’m using has gone from zero ethanol to 3-5% ethanol.
Here’s the link to the post from which that came from.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/FindPost163552.aspx
Performing a search on this forum using ‘BTU’ as the search criteria brings up a number of discussions regarding this topic.
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By DANIEL TINDER - Last Year
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KULTULZ (11/21/2024)[hr An electric primer pump is the easiest way out. If initiated by a toggle switch, use a spring loaded return to OFF position in case you forget.
I frequently forget, but have never noticed any difference/problem as a result. I would rather have the option of testing/running in case the mechanical pump should fail (couldn’t drive very far in a stick shift car while holding a switch down).
BTW: 6V electric pump was simple to install on the bird (under driver’s door, where the fuel lines connect), and has the advantage of not only saving starter wear, but also engine wear from extensive cranking without oil pressure. Also, running low-ethanol premium fuel is worth the added expense to me, even though my rich-running Pony teapot (straight-thru exhaust) & advance-limited LOM distributor gets terrible mileage.
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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Well, there is a safety factor here, and OEM, NASCAR and NHRA emphasizes it (them).
BTW - An electric pump is designed to push, not pull. You can also experience vapor lock (between the tank sump and electric pump) as to how yours is mounted, in addition to possible vapor lock from the electric to mechanical fuel pump. In short, the electric pumps needs to be at the tank to operate the system correctly..
If you find your install satisfactory, that is fine. But others need to know what can happen.
The spring loaded toggle switch is prime only. If you experience vapor lock while driving, you need to look at other causes/options (IMO).
VAPOR LOCK EXPLAINED - https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine-vapor-lock/
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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Here is something everyone needs (IMO). A pre-EVAP carbed car using ethanol laced fuel - https://www.amazon.com/REV-X-Super-Tester-Flex-Ethanol/dp/B073HLSVHX
When all of his began with the intro of ethanol, FORD was using feedback carbs/CFI and the water in the fuel problem(s) came so problematic that FORD called down for service dealers to analyze the vehicle gasoline for excessive water. If excessive and the EVAP was working correctly, any repair was put on the owner.
When you buy gasoline at a station, you have no idea of what you are pumping, especially with the mixing pumps. The first gallon out of that hose is whatever blend the previous customer used, it's not being TOP TIER or possibly the distributor has had problems. I have experience tankers dropping it in the wrong pot.
And then there is summer/winter blends ...
Before buying the above, read the reviews. There are several versions available.
FACTOIDS FROM THE REV-X ADV -
- ETHANOL FUEL BLEND INFO -
"Over 95% of the Gasoline sold to the general public contains up to 20% of Ethanol Alcohol. Therefore,the only way to truly protect your investment is to know if ethanol-alcohol is present in the gasoline you are purchasing and, if so, at what percentage. The REV X Super Tester provides the average person with an economic tool to measure and test fuel for proper ethanol levels.
Ethanol Is Corrosive
Ethanol, like all alcohol, (with exception of fine KENTUCKY BOURBON  ) is very corrosive and hygroscopic (attracts and absorbs water from the air and its surrounding). High amounts of this highly corrosive mixture of water and ethanol will corrode all fuel system components not designed for it. Besides the corrosive nature, the increase in water will begin to rust out the top of gas tanks, including in warm-weather climates that generally do not have rust issues.
Ethanol Can Damage Fuel Systems
Ethanol's ability to attract and absorb liquids prevents the natural lubricants in gasoline from doing their job, causing all non-alcohol resistant parts like rubber and plastic to dry out, crack and eventually fail.High oxygen levels in ethanol-blended fuels cause fuel to decay much faster, and if left to sit, that decay leaves deposits such as varnish and sludge. The sediments left by the decaying ethanol-blended fuel will clog fuel filters, fuel injectors,carburetors, and fuel lines. Making your engine hard to start, idle rough, stall, and in extreme circumstances, engine failure.
Ethanol Decreases Fuel Mileage High oxygen levels in ethanol cause fuel to burn much faster than fuel without ethanol. This means more fuel is needed to produce the same amount of power. However, ethanol-blended fuels will generate more horsepower.However, they do so at a cost. That cost is seen at the pump with lower miles per gallon. Ethanol Decreases Fuel Life Ethanol increases the octane level in your fuel. Because of this, the base gasoline used to mix E10, E15, or E20 starts at a lower octane level.The ethanol then increases the octane level. As a result,ethanol-blended fuels will begin to decay in as little as two months due to ethanol evaporating faster than gasoline, leaving behind the much lower octane base stock. This is a severe problem for boats, lawnmowers, and other power equipment that do not get used as frequently as your car. In addition, most small engines today are not built or designed for ethanol and have much smaller fuel system components.
These smaller components are much more susceptible to ethanol damage at a much faster rate".
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By KULTULZ - Last Year
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An excellent write-up on re-calibrating a carburetor to operate properly using ethanol laced gasoline -
Daniel Jessup (5/26/2024)
I am running the Summit carburetor on my 292 these days, and in when there is considerable heat soak and triple digit weather I get a lean condition. I bought an idle feed restriction kit from Summit and upped my sizes from .046 to .052. It is always incredible how such a small .006 increase will make. More of that in the video here the includes a test drive. https://youtu.be/dyMwFNYLu-w?feature=shared
The chances of an aftermarket carb straight out of the box being calibrated correctly for an application is remote.
It has to be calibrated for/to the vehicle, especially with today's fuel.
An EXCELLENT WRITE-UP.
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By Daniel Jessup - Last Year
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Thank you Kultulz. I get mixed reviews from the basement keyboard tappers - people try to flame me out for using that Summit carburetor. I could care less. I really enjoy the experimentation factor and what all the tuning provides in the learning process. That "Summit" carburetor is an old Holley variant anyway.
You are spot on with the "out of the box" carburetor needing to be calibrated and adjusted. Too many guys nowadays are used to the plug and play mentality so I guess the tuning factor eludes many.
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