|
By Deyomatic - 4 Years Ago
|
I want to check out the thermostat in the '59 292 in my Model A. I have read that chemical cooling system flushes are not great for older engines. I have watched videos where they use a garden hose to spray out the engine (with thermostat removed). I REALLY hate antifreeze and don't want to put my dog- or anyone's- at any kind of risk.
It isn't running hot- quite the opposite- so I have no reason to believe anything is gunked up.
Am I just overthinking this? Should I just drain it, check out/replace the thermostat, and refill it with new 50/50 antifreeze and distilled water?
|
|
By paul2748 - 4 Years Ago
|
My opinion - if the coolant is running clear ( no rusty signs), just change it. As far as the thermostat, since you are not experiencing any problems with it, leave it be.
If you properly store and dispose of the old antifreeze, there is no problem using it.. Not knowing where you live, if you have cold weather, you need antifreeze.
|
|
By Tedster - 4 Years Ago
|
If checking (or replacing) thermostat just drain the radiator from petcock into a clean container, and if desired reinstall that very same coolant right back into the radiator when done. If it's more than 2 years old then changing it is adviseable. Anyway this should yield about 2 gallons, more than enough to drop the coolant level enough below thermostat housing for maintenance.
What are you running now? If it's running cold try a 195° F. That's all I run now year round, never had any luck at all with a 180° F. thermostat in wintertime in terms of good heater output, it makes a big difference. I think it runs better too. I suggest though, whatever temp you prefer to use, sourcing a genuine Motorcraft or period NOS, at least some of the well known aftermarket thermostats sold today are now said to be of dubious quality. I don't hate antifreeze but it is kind of a pain to mess with so no substandard parts for me thanks, don't want to have to go back in there very often!
|
|
By Deyomatic - 4 Years Ago
|
Thanks Gents.
Tedster, you're speaking my language. It seems that anytime I expose antifreeze outside of it's sealed system it goes absolutely everywhere...and it's the most dangerous stuff to animals in the engine. I hate the stuff and only want to mess with it once.
I am not certain what is in it. I have had the car (1930 Model A) for a little over a month and it was initially running hot. I swapped in the smaller water pump pulley and now it's COLD...right around 160. I am just worried that it isn't getting hot enough for the moisture to evaporate out of the oil. I have always had luck with 180*. There's no heater in the car anyway so my only concern is evaporating the condensation.
If I had to guess, it's a 160* thermostat and the reason it was running hot before is that it opened and stayed open and the water didn't stay in the radiator long enough to cool off. (???). The new pulley spins like 23% faster so that negates my original hypothesis...I don't know. It used to be up around 220+ in the head while driving around town and 200 in the thermostat housing....now it's around 160 and 170, respectively.
Is that hot enough to burn off the condensation?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 4 Years Ago
|
The old temp readings of 220 in the head and 200 at the thermostat suggest that at least one of the gauges is inaccurate. The thermostat area will be the hottest of the two.
The current 160 and 170 readings could be about right for a 180 degree thermostat, and considering the time of year. The thermostat is not instant open. It might start to open a little before the rated temp and be fully open some point after the rated temp.
My temp gauge with the sender in the factory location (head) tends to indicate around 160 during the cooler months and 180 during the hotter months. That's been with multiple 180 degree thermostats and temp gauges over the past 20 years.
I don't know what the temp should be to ensure condensation evaporation from the crankcase. I imagine oil temp, measure the oil pan temperature?
|
|
By paul2748 - 4 Years Ago
|
What I don't understand is the "fear" of antifreeze. Yes, I know it is dangerous to anybody or animal that drinks it but if handled properly and disposed properly it is no more dangerous that most of the other liquids used in an engine.
|
|
By Tedster - 4 Years Ago
|
|
The antifreeze manufacturers now add a bittering agent to ethylene glycol, to help prevent animals from ingesting it. It tastes sweet otherwise.
|
|
By Deyomatic - 4 Years Ago
|
Sorry to drag this one back up...Is this the plug to drain the antifreeze out of the passenger side of the block just to the right of the freeze plug? The drivers side one is obvious (at least on mine) it doesn't have an oil pressure sender sticking out of it!
|
|
By Joe-JDC - 4 Years Ago
|
|
Make sure you cycle your heater occasionally when you drive your car or start it to get things up to temperature. I never use my heater here in San Antonio in the Thunderbird, and last week, I drained the anti-freeze to R&R the engine, and when I pulled the heater hose off at the intake manifold, it was full of rust. The rust was localized at the fitting, but still, if I had been cycling the heater occasionally, that would not have happened. Also, if you do flush the system, make sure you cycle the heater radiator open to flush it at the same time. Many times the rust and scale from the engine ends up in the heater radiator and plugs it before plugging the engine's radiator. BTDT. Joe-JDC
|
|
By Deyomatic - 4 Years Ago
|
The only heat in this car is rolling up the windows. Supplemental heat is offered by additional layers of clothing!
I drained it today and it came out much cleaner than I would have thought so I don't think I'm going to try to hose it out.
|
|
By Deyomatic - 3 Years Ago
|
UPDATE:
There was no thermostat in the car (1930 Model A) so I found it a little odd that it was able to run so cool with the smaller water pump pulley.
When I got it: It ran hot according to the temp gauge in the thermostat housing and in the rear of the driver's side head- whatever it says up top.
I swapped in the smaller water pump pulley and it cooled it right off- about 160* or so around town and on longer trips.
I put in a 180* thermostat (which I checked in water on the stove top- opened about 185 or so).
I finally got a chance to let it run today and the temp just climbed up and got to about where it was before- 220 in the thermostat housing and in the head.
Now I'm clueless. I expected it to stay pinned around 190 or so all day long.
33 minutes after running it I used a laser temp gun to check the radiator temps- top was about 113* and bottom was 75. Is this normal? Upper hose was hot, lower was luke warm.
I drained it again and ran distilled water through the filler with the lower hose off and it drained out pretty quickly and was crystal clear so I don't think it's plugged up.
I was thinking of trying a 165* thermostat and/or doing that trick where you "plug" the bypass hose between the water pump and the thermostat housing- what was that trick again- a pipe plug with a hole in it, or something?
Or should I just 86 the thermostat altogether, again? I want the oil to get warm enough to evaporate any condensation, which is why I went with the 180* unit.
I just want to be able to get in and drive it!
Thanks in advance for any advice.
|
|
By charliemccraney - 3 Years Ago
|
Did it reach 220 during a normal drive or only idling?
|
|
By Deyomatic - 3 Years Ago
|
Both. I let it cool off for about a half hour then took it around the block and down the highway- I was thinking that getting the RPMs up would spin the water pump faster and cool it off but it didn't really work out.
I was wondering if there may have been an air bubble or something but I am guessing that bypass hose keeps that from happening.
|
|
By panel driver - 3 Years Ago
|
Deyomatic
Not sure of the mounting of your radiator in relation to the engine, if it sits lower or level with the height of the engine it may have an air pocket.
If it is you may want to go to your local parts store and get one of those funnel kits that attach to the radiator to allow you to keep the antifreeze above the height of the engine.
Fill the system, keep the antifreeze in the funnel about half way and let the engine run till the thermostat opens completely and circulates.
I have tried to find a thermostat for the y engine that has the little bleeder in it to help with bleeding the air out but have not found one.
You might also try wedging a screwdriver in between the upper radiator hose and the radiator fill the system until antifreeze come out of the opening between the hose and radiator
Just some ideas if you have a air pocket issue. Hope this helps.
|
|
By Tedster - 3 Years Ago
|
Ford had a service bulletin at one time, a neat trick to avoid air pockets after a coolant refill. Take a piece of hard candy, such as a lemon drop or butterscotch, and jam the thermostat spring open. It will eventually dissolve, but allow for equalization during the initial run. Another method is to run the engine at a nose up attitude, using ramps.
Engines found without any Thermostat installed often indicate an overheating problem or other cooling system troubles in the past. By '64 Ford was using 192° F. temp thermostats, I can't really see any benefit to running cooler engine temperatures. If there is cooling system restriction due to scale or sediment rust in the block it will overheat no matter what.
|
|
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
|
|
It seems the smaller pulley and a 1/8” hole a plug put in the bypass line has cured a city driving/idling problem with most of our y-blocks. I blame it on the fuel at least here in California in with their summer blend since it’s the only difference from 60 years ago. You don’t say which thermostat you use but I’ve gone to MOPAR hi-flow which for many makes difference. I also use a fan shroud which I’m sure helped for my car. You don’t say what style radiator you have, pressure cap, or if you have a recovery system. Are you hood sides stock or is your engine open. I’ve continued with a 160* stat because I installed AC and idling it will run 190 but stead as long as I move some. A 180* would do the same. When flushing mine I always removed the 2 side plugs to get all the coolant out before start the flush. Good luck.
|
|
By 2721955meteor - 3 Years Ago
|
1 DO NOT CHANGE THE BYPASS HOSE OR SIZE,IT ELIMINATES CAVITATION. GOOD QUALITY ANTY FREEZE HELPS STOP CAVITATION AND EROSION.FACTORY TEMP LOCATION IS NOT ACURATE,THE BEST LOCATION IS RIGHT BEFORE THE STAT.MOST OF THE HEAT BUILD IS IN THE HEADS.
SPEEDING UP THE PUMP IS NOT WISE,AND USUALY CREATES CAVITATION. IF TEMP IS HIGHER AT TOP OF RAD THAN BOTTEM YOUR COOLING SYSTEM IS WORKING. IS YOU SHOW 180 AT REAR OF HEAD(FACTORY SPOT FOR SENDING UNIT THE TEMP WILL BE HIGHER AT STATHOUSING
THER HAS BIN MUCH CONTRAVERSEY ABOUT THIS TOPIC. IN THE PAST. MESSING WITH BYPASS AND PUMP SPEED WILL CREATE CAVITATION,THAT WILL ERODE BLOCK AND HEADS,EFECTING THIN SPOTS AT REAR CYLENDERS WHER WATER CHANGES DIRECTIONS , PURCHASES SEVERAL CORES FROM CA WHER 4ANS 8 NEEDED SLEEVES DUE TO CAVITATION
|
|
By Deyomatic - 3 Years Ago
|
Let me see about some of the questions. The Thermostat is just whatever NAPA had for a '59 Fairlane. The radiator cap is likely high enough. I DID NOT run it with the cap off the first time so maybe it's just air bubbles? I will try that next.
I only run Prestone for antifreeze mixed with distilled water.
I keep trying to add it up- no thermostat and large pulley ran hot (about like it is now) and stayed hot. Swapped the smaller pulley in and it stayed around 165*. What changed? Just the volume of water flowing, right?
With the 180* thermostat it heats up and stays hot again. When it hits 180*, it should open and cool off but it isn't doing that. COULD it be air bubbles?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 3 Years Ago
|
A smaller pulley increases pump speed. That increases coolant flow and airflow, if a mechanical fan is used..
|
|
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
|
As a response to the smaller pulley. My 56 could over heat on an 80* day in city traffic. I have an excellent brass/copper radiator, 6 blade fan, hi-flow thermostat, and fan shroud. I also added the front core structure over the radiator sealed to the hood so all air went thru the radiator. A stock Ford part
On the advice of a member here. He told me to start with the engine cold, cap off, and coolant 1” down in the rad tank. Idle the engine until you are positive the the thermostat is open, (I did with a thermo gun) check for coolant movement by looking in the tank, there was none, slightly raise idle maybe 50 rpm, look in the rad tank again, there was movement. PROBLEM SOLVED. No water was moving through the radiator to cool the engine at idle at all. A fully open bypass would make more coolant circulate thru the engine without cooling it.
As for a restriction in the bypass, that’s all it is and when the thermostat opens more coolant passes through the radiator cooling it. As for water pump speed, in my case I changed the rear end from a 3.21 to a 2.74. On the freeways I’m taching 2200 max 400 lower than original which negates the water pump speed increase. I cannot see the possibility of cavitation in my engine causing a problem since my engine runs at a lower rpm than stock. |
|
By 2721955meteor - 3 Years Ago
|
DryLakesRacer (3/9/2022)
As a response to the smaller pulley. My 56 could over heat on an 80* day in city traffic. I have an excellent brass/copper radiator, 6 blade fan, hi-flow thermostat, and fan shroud. I also added the front core structure over the radiator sealed to the hood so all air went thru the radiator. A stock Ford part On the advice of a member here. He told me to start with the engine cold, cap off, and coolant 1” down in the rad tank. Idle the engine until you are positive the the thermostat is open, (I did with a thermo gun) check for coolant movement by looking in the tank, there was none, slightly raise idle maybe 50 rpm, look in the rad tank again, there was movement. PROBLEM SOLVED. No water was moving through the radiator to cool the engine at idle at all. A fully open bypass would make more coolant circulate thru the engine without cooling it.
As for a restriction in the bypass, that’s all it is and when the thermostat opens more coolant passes through the radiator cooling it. As for water pump speed, in my case I changed the rear end from a 3.21 to a 2.74. On the freeways I’m taching 2200 max 400 lower than original which negates the water pump speed increase. I cannot see the possibility of cavitation in my engine causing a problem since my engine runs at a lower rpm than stock.
|
|
By 2721955meteor - 3 Years Ago
|
DryLakesRacer (3/9/2022)
As a response to the smaller pulley. My 56 could over heat on an 80* day in city traffic. I have an excellent brass/copper radiator, 6 blade fan, hi-flow thermostat, and fan shroud. I also added the front core structure over the radiator sealed to the hood so all air went thru the radiator. A stock Ford part On the advice of a member here. He told me to start with the engine cold, cap off, and coolant 1” down in the rad tank. Idle the engine until you are positive the the thermostat is open, (I did with a thermo gun) check for coolant movement by looking in the tank, there was none, slightly raise idle maybe 50 rpm, look in the rad tank again, there was movement. PROBLEM SOLVED. No water was moving through the radiator to cool the engine at idle at all. A fully open bypass would make more coolant circulate thru the engine without cooling it.
As for a restriction in the bypass, that’s all it is and when the thermostat opens more coolant passes through the radiator cooling it. As for water pump speed, in my case I changed the rear end from a 3.21 to a 2.74. On the freeways I’m taching 2200 max 400 lower than original which negates the water pump speed increase. I cannot see the possibility of cavitation in my engine causing a problem since my engine runs at a lower rpm than stock.
|
|
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
|
|
I can agree the stock bypass line CAN allow more water into the radiator IF the thermostat is open to the capacity of the thermostat and the amount of coolant from the cylinder heads into the housing PLUS the bypass hose and not leaving coolant in the engine to recirculate and not go thru the radiator. This was engineered by Ford in 1954 and never changed much until the engine design was retired.
The bypass hose is receiving hot coolant from the intake just as the thermostat housing does. When the thermostat is closed it allows more circulation in a closed system as the radiator is not in the equation yet. As I understand it there would definitely be more cavitation if it was totally blocked. since my intake is currently off I am willing to try the bypass hose without a restriction. Before I knew I had no coolant flow thru the radiator I added the plug with the hole thinking I was not letting hot coolant reach the radiator so it could do it’s job.
There must be coolant flow at idle thru the radiator when the thermostat is open and that’s the point of the smaller pulley. Mine had very little to none which is why the smaller pulley solved so many idling in traffic problems discussed at length hear over the years. On this site I’ve read that Ford used 7 different diameter YBlock water pump pulleys. This could definitely be the reason some of us have idle overheating problems.
I’m always open to making our engines more reliable. As I once stated. Since 1955 when our family owned a 55 and 56 new with no problems cooling even traveling thru the desert in the summertime is the gasoline.
|
|
By Deyomatic - 3 Years Ago
|
I am really leaning (hoping) my issue is just air in the system.
I busted out my 1960 Truck Shop manual and it says that when you're refilling the system you should fill the cooling system and then disconnect the heater hose on the water pump to let the air bleed out of the system until the coolant comes out. Is this something you guys all do, or should I just refill it and run it without a radiator cap until the thermostat opens, and then top off?
Is it the "6 of one, half-dozen of the other" situation?
|
|
By Ted - 3 Years Ago
|
|
I typically just drill a 1/8” hole in the thermostat if it doesn’t already have a bleed hole in it and let the air purge out using that hole that while filling the system. The other option is to just crank the engine up and once the thermostat opens, continue filling the coolant system.
|
|
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
|
|
Ted have you ever restricted the flow thru the bypass hose?
|
|
By Ted - 3 Years Ago
|
|
DryLakesRacer (3/13/2022)
Ted have you ever restricted the flow thru the bypass hose?
I have restricted the flow at the bypass hose or bypass hole on other engines but never saw the need to do so on the Ford Y. Most heating problems on my end center around the lack of air flow through the radiator and/or inadequate water flow at low rpm. Once those two issues are taken care of, heating issues are typically taken care of thus not requiring to go so far as to put a restriction in the bypass hose.
I don’t own a Thunderbird though and if I did, I might consider it if I had a heating issue. With some of the recent advances in the one inch spacer plate technology for the Thunderbird engines, the need for a restriction at the bypass hose may or may not still be needed. On the flip side of all this, the SBC circle track engines tend to like that bypass hole in the block behind the water pump restricted or blocked to aid in cooling. As long as the thermostat is open, I don’t see a problem with cavitation issues.
|
|
By Deyomatic - 3 Years Ago
|
|
Great. Thanks for all the advice.
|