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By ac289ace - 4 Years Ago
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I am continuing on putting everything back on my 292 after the rebuild and have an issue with misaligned pulleys, This is for a '57 T-bird so it has what I think is the unique T-bird dampner. I have attached a couple of pics but I am not sure they are clear so will try to describe the misaligment.
The timing pointer is positioned such that the timing marks are hidden behind it so it looks like the dampner pulleys are too far into the engine. When I put the water pump pulley on to do a fit check, the groove is ~3/16" forward from where it needs to be to be in alignment with the dampner pulley. I have installed a new water pump, but took a measurement of the mounting flange to where the pulley mounts and that measurement agrees between my old and the new pump so I do not think the water pump pulley position has changed.
I checked the inner diameter of the pulley against the outer diameter of the water pump flange and should have ~3/4" of clearance so I think the pulley is seating properly.
The last thing I did was measure the water pump pulley height and it was ~1.765" but do not know if that is what it should be.
Do I have a problem with the dampner being seated too far onto the crank or should I be checking something else.? All my external parts was from my original 312 and they are going onto a 292 so not sure if there is a possibility of a parts mismatch.
Full disclosure, while I drove the car before pulling the engine, I did not check belt alignment so this may have been there before I switched engines.
TIA for any help.
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By Doug T - 4 Years Ago
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I can't tell from the pics but does the gen pulley line up with the w.p. or the crank? Because of the timing pointer it looks like the crank pulley is a little too far into the engine (but the pointer could be bent.) Post a pic of the w.p.pulley it seem the most likely culprit. BTW for these parts 312 and 292 parts are identical and interchangeable, but pass car and t birds are different.
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By KULTULZ - 4 Years Ago
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By MoonShadow - 4 Years Ago
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The water pump pulley mount is pressed onto the shaft. Could it be moved out a bit with a press to line it up?
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By paul2748 - 4 Years Ago
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First, my timing pointer was just like yours. I trimmed it back so I could see the marks
I went out and measured my 56 Bird, rear flange of the pulley to the front edge of the spacer and front edge of the block.
The measurement from the pulley to the front edge of the spacer was 2 3/4 inches. From the pulley to the block was 3 7/8 . (I know the spacer is one inch, but the gaskets account for the extra 1/8)
See how these measurement compare to yours. Another thing to compare is the relationship of the rear of the puller to the ribs in the water pump. You pulley looks further forward than mine as you can see where the rib ends on yours but not on mine, maybe just the angle of your picture ?
It may be just the angle of your picture, but my pulley looks deeper than yours?? NOTE: I have an additional spacer in front of the pulley
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By ac289ace - 4 Years Ago
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Thank You all for the responses-
DougT, The generator pulley is also slightly misaligned but not nearly as bad as the wp pulley.
KULTULZ, thanks for the pics and that was more what I expected WRT to the pointer. Mine could be bent to make it align better, but I think it looks pretty square right now.
Moonshadow, That is the solution I am leaning towards, but want to make sure there isn't a problem that is causing the misalignment before I make that change. See next response to Paul2748.
Paul2748, Thank you very much for the measurements and I get the same readings at the same spots on my engine so I am not sure I have a wp pulley position problem.
I went over to a friend's house and looked at a couple of blocks he had and his '57 T-Bird. Everything we checked at the water pump looked the same as mine. One thing we did notice was a different timing chain width on the 2 blocks he had. One had a recent aftermarket chain and gear set and the chain was 3/4" wide. The other was an original chain and gear set and the chain was 1" wide.
Does anyone know what the width was of the original timing gear on the crank? I am wondering if the new timing gear the machine shop used might be 1/4" narrower than the original.
The machine shop is also checking on this as it seems like the only possible way the dampner/pulleys might be out of position.
As of now, there is still no clear problem area.
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By KULTULZ - 4 Years Ago
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... we did notice was a different timing chain width on the 2 blocks he had. One had a recent aftermarket chain and gear set and the chain was 3/4" wide. The other was an original chain and gear set and the chain was 1" wide.
Does anyone know what the width was of the original timing gear on the crank? I am wondering if the new timing gear the machine shop used might be 1/4" narrower than the original.
The machine shop is also checking on this as it seems like the only possible way the damper/pulleys might be out of position.
Now that is interesting. I hope TED sees this and comments.
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By Ted - 4 Years Ago
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I have three different gear sets here for the Y and while they all have different width chains, all have a 0.765" wide lower gear. The water pump pulley mount being in the wrong position comes to mind as being something to look at.
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By ac289ace - 4 Years Ago
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Ted (10/14/2021)
I have three different gear sets here for the Y and while they all have different width chains, all have a 0.765" wide lower gear. The water pump pulley mount being in the wrong position comes to mind as being something to look at.
Thanks for checking Ted and this is a strange one for me. I put the old water pump back on and it shows the same misalignment as the new one but I do not think it would have run without throwing the belt if that amount of offset was present originally. Since the pump flange to engine block dimensions agree between 4 different configurations, (3 different engines and 2 pumps on mine) I am thinking the difference resides somewhere else. However, it also seems if I just press the mounting flange on another 1/4" I should be good to go so that is the path I'll be heading down.
It certainly seems something is different between my original 312 and the new block I have, but I'm not sure its worth trying to figure out at this point. I'll just have to remember if I change the water pump in the future I'll need to check the flange position.
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By KULTULZ - 4 Years Ago
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With the damper properly installed, does the GEN, PS and WP pulleys line up?
If so, possibly a spacer can be machined to be placed between the crank timing gear and damper snout to safely move the damper out to align the pulleys?
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By ac289ace - 4 Years Ago
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I thought about adding a spacer, but talked to the machine shop and we decided to move the wp pulley mounting flange back. We moved the flange back .170" and the pulley is perfectly aligned with the dampner pulley now.
Eyeballing it, the generator pulley was offset at a distance ~midway between the original wp and dampner pulley so its slightly forward of them now. The PS pulley is ~12" away so its very difficult to see if its aligned or not. If the gen alignment is a problem, I'll probably switch to an alternator and fab a custom mt for it. If the ps alignment is a problem, I can grind or shim the ps mounting bracket to get the proper alignment.
I should know in a couple of days if it is all working OK or if I am going back to square one and need to do something like add a spacer to the crank.
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By ac289ace - 4 Years Ago
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Since people sometimes search on previous problems to see how they were solved, I thought I would add a final disposition on my misaligned pulley issue.
. After pushing the water pump pulley back .170" all the other pulleys lined up well, but I found 2 of the fan blades just touched the power steering pulley bolt. I added a couple of fan shims that totaled just under .180" and everything is working perfectly. I just need to remember the "new" water pump pulley location if I ever replace the water pump.
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