Highway speed vibration ('57 Thunderbird)


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By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Getting a bad vibration starting around 55 mph that gets worse up to 65 then gets less intense at 70+, but still there. Very annoying. Feel it in the seat, steering wheel — whole car. Tires are 4 yr old B.F. Goodrich Silvertown bias-plys. Just had all 4 rebalanced. Rims are true. Tires didn't show any signs of trouble on the machine. Run the exact same tire on the '57 Fairlane with no issues, so doubting that's the trouble.

Replaced:
— shocks
— universal joints
— trans mount
 — engine steady rests

Driveshaft does not have any weights. Would y'all have that checked next? Being so short I didn't think that would be an issue, but I want to get this thing cruising smooth. Car has not been on an alignment rack in over 40 years, but nothing has been changed/messed with in the front end. Could use A-arm bushings. Wheel is off center but doesn't pull. Very few miles put on it until recently. 

Thoughts?
By 1/8cavman - 3 Years Ago
  Did this vibration start a little and has got progressively worse? I would go back and check the basic things, lug bolt torque, maybe a thrown wheel weight, other repairs. Do you know if the tires are rolling the same direction as before the wheel balance? Some times this can affect a tire that sits in one position for along time, then starts rotating the other direction. Back in the 70's I had a Hunter on the car wheel spin balancer. If you know of someone who has one that could save a lot of time tracking down this problem and have a very accurate wheel balance because it spins all the rotating parts, drums etc. There are probably not many of these spin balancers around now. Should have kept mine. Hope this helps.   Part of the problem,  Cav Man

 
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
1/8cavman (6/21/2021)
  Did this vibration start a little and has got progressively worse? I would go back and check the basic things, lug bolt torque, maybe a thrown wheel weight, other repairs. Do you know if the tires are rolling the same direction as before the wheel balance? Some times this can affect a tire that sits in one position for along time, then starts rotating the other direction. Back in the 70's I had a Hunter on the car wheel spin balancer. If you know of someone who has one that could save a lot of time tracking down this problem and have a very accurate wheel balance because it spins all the rotating parts, drums etc. There are probably not many of these spin balancers around now. Should have kept mine. Hope this helps.   Part of the problem,  Cav Man

I've just recently gotten the car on the highway. It sat for 20 years and needed a lot of work to get it going again (including tires). I had them re-spun just the other day and they checked out ok. No flat spots. I wish I could find a shop that had that 'Hunter' machine you're talking about. Would take care of any drums that were out of spec as well.

Dad said it used to run just fine down the highway, so I'm guessing it's either tires or front-end related. The A-arm bushings look pretty crusty.

I have a '57 fairlne 500 with the same wheels/tires. I'll swap them out and see if that changes anything.
By Lou - 3 Years Ago
Your problem is wheel balance. Myself and 2 of my friends had the same problem after having their wheels spun balanced. I have a old fashion bubble balancer and I was taught to use it by an old time mechanic. I balanced the wheels on my bubble balancer and problem solved.  
By Ted - 3 Years Ago
Is the driveshaft yoke tight in the rear of the transmission?  Either a worn yoke or rear transmission bushing can cause a vibration.  Rebalancing the tires using a Hunter spin balancer is also a good suggestion and worth pursuing.
 
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Ted (6/22/2021)
Is the driveshaft yoke tight in the rear of the transmission?  Either a worn yoke or rear transmission bushing can cause a vibration.  Rebalancing the tires using a Hunter spin balancer is also a good suggestion and worth pursuing. 


Mr. Eaton —
I recently replaced the output shaft bushing. The rear seal started leaking soon after the trans was overhauled and upon closer investigation the bushing showed excessive wear and appeared original. The new one removed all slack in that area. The yoke was fine with no grooves.

You know anyone with one of those balancers in the central TX area? I'm just north of Austin in Round Rock. 
By Florida_Phil - 3 Years Ago
I chased a similar high speed vibration in my 55 Tbird for a long time.  Could never find a shop with an old school spin balance machine. I was about to give up and accept it when I bought new wheels.  I was running the original steel wheels.  I replaced them with modern aluminum wheels and remounted my old tires.   To my surprise, the vibration immediately went away.  My steel wheels looked to be OK and were balanced off the car.   I have no idea why my steel wheels did this.  All I know is the vibration is gone.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Florida_Phil (6/23/2021)
I chased a similar high speed vibration in my 55 Tbird for a long time.  Could never find a shop with an old school spin balance machine. I was about to give up and accept it when I bought new wheels.  I was running the original steel wheels.  I replaced them with modern aluminum wheels and remounted my old tires.   To my surprise, the vibration immediately went away.  My steel wheels looked to be OK and were balanced off the car.   I have no idea why my steel wheels did this.  All I know is the vibration is gone.


Most folks seem to say rims are my issue. I tend to agree. Will post my findings. Thanks
By Lou - 3 Years Ago
Before you go crazy replacing your rims, take the tires off the car and wash tires and rims front and back. ( As I said, "A old times taught me to balance tires")
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
I ran the car on stands up to 70 and didn’t feel what I feel on the road. Minimal vibration from the drivetrain spinning up that fast. I guess that rules out driveshaft, mounts, etc.

What I do see are very wobbly rear tires and questionable rims. Hard to determine if both are at fault. YouTube video below:

https://youtu.be/E2q_aya7AkI

Thoughts?
By Joe-JDC - 3 Years Ago
Swap front tires to back and spin it up again on jack stands and watch to see if the wobble goes away.  If it does not, you may have a wheel bearing issue.  Another issue may be the indexing of the u-joints when you reinstalled the drive shaft.  If a u-joint is not seated properly, or a needle missing, you will get an imbalance issue.    Joe-JDC
By 62bigwindow - 3 Years Ago
Does anyone have a road force balancer in your area? There was a post about this on the HAMB a while back. The tires can be indexed on the wheels to counter the wheel run out. A good shop that knows what they are doing can remedy it.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Good points. I'll get the wheels rotated and report back results. 

Not sure on a local shop with a 'road force' balancer. Someone on another board mentioned that as well. Will do some digging.

Thanks again for all the pointers.
By Dobie - 3 Years Ago
yblock57 (6/28/2021)
Good points. I'll get the wheels rotated and report back results. 

Not sure on a local shop with a 'road force' balancer. Someone on another board mentioned that as well. Will do some digging.

Thanks again for all the pointers.


Check with a Nissan dealer, they've been using road force balancers for close to 20 years.
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
Back when I changed thousands of tires for Sears we always rotated the tires on the rims on a come back first before issuing new tires. It worked a lot of the times..
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Eye-yi-yi … so much for wheels/tires. Upon checking for axle run out, a heck of a noise/vibration started. Does not do this in park. Only in reverse/drive. Double checked U-bolts. Can feel a small amount of slack in the yoke going into tail shaft of transmission. I have just replaced the bushing inside the tail shaft. Looks like it’s already leaking after putting a couple hundred miles on it. Doesn’t make sense that it would make that much noise and vibration at approx 15 mph in the video. Sounds/feels like it’s coming from inside the trans. What the heck?!?

Thoughts?

https://youtu.be/UMRg6J2dwVo
By Dobie - 3 Years Ago
WOW! Something is severely askew there. Since you mentioned driveshaft balance is an unknown I think I'd start there by taking it to a driveline shop and have them check it. I'm betting it is out of balance to the point that it beat up your new tailshaft bushing, hence the new leak. New u-joints would also be in order.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Dobie (6/30/2021)
WOW! Something is severely askew there. Since you mentioned driveshaft balance is an unknown I think I'd start there by taking it to a driveline shop and have them check it. I'm betting it is out of balance to the point that it beat up your new tailshaft bushing, hence the new leak. New u-joints would also be in order.


Agreed! Seems like the logical next step. Hopefully nothing internal damaged.
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
When that was happening; did you happen to reach in the car and put it in neutral. If you did, did the clicking slow to a stop?
I know this would a lot of extra work but I would have removed the yoke from the drive shaft and slipped in the trans and tried it again.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
DryLakesRacer (6/30/2021)
When that was happening; did you happen to reach in the car and put it in neutral. If you did, did the clicking slow to a stop?
I know this would a lot of extra work but I would have removed the yoke from the drive shaft and slipped in the trans and tried it again.


I did put in neutral and it slowed down. I think the issue is the slack in the slip yoke and bushing. This was an issue before that was inadvertently fixed without realizing. Replaced the bushing due to the leak at the rear seal. Now that the car has been driven a couple hundred miles and developed play again, it's obvious the driveshaft needs to be balanced. Will also go ahead and buy a new slip yoke as well.

Once this is fixed, it's back to wheels/tires.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Update — driveshaft balanced with new universal joints and slip-yoke. Wrong yoke had been in there for a long time. New correct yoke for the Fordomatic was over 2" longer than the one that came out. Suspect it was for a 3 speed. Anyway, with that solved a new output shaft bushing & seal got everything wrapped up. No more noise!
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/54b9f817-612d-4ca1-a1cf-d10.jpeg

Did some crude measuring with a stand and caliper measuring on the outer lip just inside where wheel weights go. Runout is as follows:

LF — .026”
LR — .079”
RF — .027”
RR — .025”
Obviously that left rear is the most concerning. I made a video of the inside of the wheel showing some concerning brake drum movement. If you watch closely, the inside lip of the drum appears to be moving in & out. I checked the axle flanges with the drums removed and didn't notice any runout. Is it possible the drum is tweaked somehow and causing that excessive runout? Thoughts?
Video here

By charliemccraney - 3 Years Ago
I don't know what I'm talking about but...

One time when I was having new tires installed on my truck, the guy doing the work got me to come look at something.  On the balancing machine, the wheel appeared to be wobbling.  What it was is the bead was, for lack of a better word, wavy.  I would guess that it was at least 1/16".  These wheels had been used for the previous 10 or 15 years and were never a problem in practice so I told him to continue and all was fine.  Whether that was a smart decision, I don't know.

RE the brake drum,that outer edge is not the most critical portion so I would imagine that it does not need to be exactly concentric.  The only machined portions are usually the the braking surface and axle mating portion.  Those should be flat and concentric
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
charliemccraney (8/20/2021)
I don't know what I'm talking about but...

One time when I was having new tires installed on my truck, the guy doing the work got me to come look at something.  On the balancing machine, the wheel appeared to be wobbling.  What it was is the bead was, for lack of a better word, wavy.  I would guess that it was at least 1/16".  These wheels had been used for the previous 10 or 15 years and were never a problem in practice so I told him to continue and all was fine.  Whether that was a smart decision, I don't know.

RE the brake drum,that outer edge is not the most critical portion so I would imagine that it does not need to be exactly concentric.  The only machined portions are usually the the braking surface and axle mating portion.  Those should be flat and concentric


Thanks, Charlie. Yeah, that makes sense on the drum. What got my attention is the other side isn't showing any runnout and that drum isn't showing any movement in/out on the back side. I think pulling the drum and mounting the wheel without it will reveal if there's something wrong with the drum. Thanks!
By KULTULZ - 3 Years Ago
I think pulling the drum and mounting the wheel without it will reveal if there's something wrong with the drum


Remove the wheel, secure the drum to axle flange with two lug nuts and watch for defection. If you remove just the brake drum, reinstall the wheel to check for wheel deflection and hit the brakes, you are going to have a mess on your hands (if I am reading your post correctly).

Most likely the drum is warped and/or off-shore.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
KULTULZ (8/21/2021)
I think pulling the drum and mounting the wheel without it will reveal if there's something wrong with the drum


Remove the wheel, secure the drum to axle flange with two lug nuts and watch for defection. If you remove just the brake drum, reinstall the wheel to check for wheel deflection and hit the brakes, you are going to have a mess on your hands (if I am reading your post correctly).

Most likely the drum is warped and/or off-shore.


Good point, Kultulz. Been there done that! I just cut the ignition and let things slow themselves down doing this sorta stuff.

There's no visible deflection with just the drum in place. It's pretty clear at this point it's either an axle shaft, drum or wheel. Hopefully the drum as that would require the least amount of trouble to replace. Will get post back findings.
By RB - 3 Years Ago
By noting the frequency of the vibration you should be able to narrow it down between engine/driveshaft or tires/wheels
By DryLakesRacer - 3 Years Ago
With the tire/wheel removed does the drum center fit tight on the axle hub purchase? To me thats the most important thing.
Also I have a parts store that still turns drums. I you have one near have the put the machine an look at it with him spinning it.
Next is applying the e-brake tight when the drums are hot will distort them. A test is to slowly apply the emergency brake while coasting in neutral at about 35 mph and see what it feels like. Should be pretty smooth.
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
DryLakesRacer (8/21/2021)
With the tire/wheel removed does the drum center fit tight on the axle hub purchase? To me thats the most important thing.
Also I have a parts store that still turns drums. I you have one near have the put the machine an look at it with him spinning it.
Next is applying the email brake when the drums are hot will distort them. A test is to slowly apply the emergency brake while coasting in neutral at about 35 mph and see what it feels like. Should be pretty smooth.


Center of both rear drums do fit nice and tight around the axle hub. I'll try the ebrake test and see what happens. Probably would be best to see if I could have them turned and watch the process. Thanks!
By yblock57 - 3 Years Ago
Just to update this; the tires were the issue. New ones completely solved the vibration. Got the car up to 80 mph and feels great.

Appreciate everyone's help. So glad this is fixed. Now on to the next thing!