Thunderbird Cooling Questions?

Thunderbird Cooling Questions?

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By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

Now that summer is on it's way, I am thinking about making additional improvements to my TBird's cooling system. I already have an aluminum radiator and electric fan. Made a big difference. There are a number of additional modification available. Casco sells a water pump with deeper fins. I believe this is to compensate for the TBird spacer. They also make a smaller water pump pully which is supposed to improve flow at idle. I have also seen an improved spacer. My issue is only when sitting in traffic on a hot day. As soon as I move, the temp returns to normal. Any input?

By FORD DEARBORN - 4 Years Ago

After all that you already did and the only issue is a creeping temp when sitting idling, I would go for the smaller pulley first. Not to be lazy but that does seem to be what's needed in this case. Can you see a good rapid flow at idle with the cap off? Does the flow increase substantially when the idle is picked up? I'm pretty sure you have an electric fan so noise from an increase in fan speed won't be an issue. Hope this helps, JEFF...........

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

No fan will help if the coolant is not circulating at idle. Chris Ames's WP spacer addresses that. I have his spacer, but don't intend to use it until my engine is rebuilt. Chris is a nice guy and will talk your ear off, if you give him a call.
The smaller pulley would be the easiest repair, so I will wait until I know if it's needed.

By DryLakesRacer - 4 Years Ago

Not a Thunderbird but all my over heating in traffic was GONE with a 302 Mustang water pump pulley. All was bought from Summit, chrome was ruffed up and painted black. A spacer kit was also bought to help with belt alignment.

At idle there was no movement of water evident looking in the radiator. With the new pulley there was sufficient movement to keep creeping up temperature. I give all credit to greenbird on this site for tell me to do this 5 years ago. I do have the 1/8” hole in the plug I put in the bypass line 3 years earlier.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

How much smaller is the Mustang wp pulley?

By DryLakesRacer - 4 Years Ago

The stock one is over 7” the Mustang is right 6” outside diameter. I believe Ted said once there were different diameters for different parts of the country.
Some have had concerns about to many rpm on the pump and cavitation. I suppose this could be a problem if drive at 5000 rpm continually. Think about your alternator or generator and how small the pulley is. I had the stock 3.21 gears in for 4 years before changing rear ends to a 2.74.

By charliemccraney - 4 Years Ago

From when I did the innovators west damper install, I found something like 7000 - 8000rpm max for a water pump and 18000 rpm for an alternator. The water pump RPM limit should be taken with a grain of salt since the only "official" spec I found was in Stewart Components tech section and they make performance pumps which may sustain higher rpm than a stock replacement pump. The other pump specs were "from the internet" and we all know how reliable that can be. The alternator rpm came from Powermaster, in regards to a street alternator so that one is probably pretty reliable.

Since this is a cooling thread, the vast majority of street ys with a stock damper will not exceed that pump rpm with any readily available pulley and it should not be a concern.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

I had the same thoughts about cavitation at higher rpm, but I don't drag race, and I haven't gotten a speeding ticket since I don't know when.

Interesting you swapped rear gears. I swapped my 55 T-bird's OEM 3.31 gears for 2.72 gears. I'm also building a C4 transmission/w Dynamic Racing Transmission's wide-ratio gear set. Going from Fordomatic's 2.40 1st/low gear to 2.90 in the C4. With the 2.90 1st, it will be equivalent to 3.28 rear gears/w the Fordomatic. In other words, I shouldn't notice a difference until I reach 3rd, which will put me at about 2200 rpm @ 65 mph. There will be a wider gap, however, between 1st and 2nd, with 2nd being 1.60. Hopefully, it will be an easier swap than trying to install an AOD. I have the Flat-O Products C4 adapter kit.

By 312YBlock - 4 Years Ago

Hi Phil, if you have the original timing chain extension “water pump spacer” there is an internal flaw in its design that diminishes water pump flow and contributes to overheating at idle. As was mentioned by 55blacktie Chris Ames did formal thermal dynamics testing on a prototype he developed, and proved his theory. Chris published the results of coolant flow tests at specific engine RPMs, comparing the original spacer with his design, the results are quite impressive. I was one of the early purchasers of his replacement and met him in person at a regional in New Jersey a couple years back. I have it installed in my 312 and it’s all he says it is. I have a six blade clutch fan, Griffen aluminum radiator and a 170 degree thermostat. With Chris’s spacer I don’t run over 170 degrees which is approximately 4 fifths of the way to the end of the solid white line, the end of which is 190 degrees while in motion. In heavy stop and go traffic it can get to 190 or slightly over, but 190 is nothing and when moving again the temperature quickly drops back to normal. I would recommend sticking with your water pump as a “high flow” pump will mask but not correct the design flaw in the spacer. While there are a number of things that can contribute to our Y blocks overheating Chris’s spacer hits one right on the nose. I highly recommend it 🚗.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

Phil, if you contact Chris, he will probably tell you to check for casting flash around the coolant port of the timing cover, which restricts flow.

By DryLakesRacer - 4 Years Ago

55blacktie, I changed my Ford-O to a 62 Cruise-O and then the rear end. Never been happier with the car.
I’m not familiar with all you can do with the Thunderbird spacers or thicker blades on the pump but it still comes down to water movement. At idle in a parade or waiting at a long signal if your not moving water thru the radiator your temp is going to creep up. I fit a shroud to my 56 and it never had one and a 5 blade fan while searching for a fix I felt confident enough that this winter I installed AC. These new compressors don’t seen to have the same load on the engine as the old one's so this summer I’m not looking any temp problems. Good luck...

By DANIEL TINDER - 4 Years Ago

[quote]312YBlock (4/25/2021)

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

Thanks for the input. My TBird has a manual transmission with OD and 4.11 gears. At 60 mph, I turn about 2,200 RPM in 3rd gear OD. My car also has a 170 degree thermostat. I never turn my engine over 5,000 RPM. It stays at 170-180 degrees whenever it's moving. In the summer sitting in a traffic jam or waiting in line, the temp creeps up. So far it has not boiled over. Casco wants $140 including freight for their pulley. I bought one from Summit for $50. If that doesn't do the job, I'll look into the improved spacer.

By DryLakesRacer - 4 Years Ago

As I remember I had to use a shorter fan belt; the generator at that time didn’t have enough movement. I hope it works for as it did for me. At 2200 I’m right at 65 now and can run over 70 and like the lower rpm keeping up with highway traffic and still hearing the radio.

By 2721955meteor - 4 Years Ago

SOUNDS like you have most of the answers to water flow,1 exception is restricting the bypass flow you will promote cavitation especially in arias with no need for antifreeze. as the therm opens and closes the bypass eliminates cavitation. you won't notice until the therm aria will be eroded, as well the back cylendrs 4 and 8 will de eroded. have used several blocks that when bored water was found required sleeves in those 2 cylinders,as water flows
around and up to cylinder heads. the better water flow you have addressed will increase cavitation as stat opens and closes

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

With the Fordomatic and 3.31 gears, it just felt like it needed another gear on the highway. The last "modern" car I owned without overdrive was a 1977 B210 Datsun, and it needed it.

Phil, what's the part number for that Summit wp pulley? Diameter? Depth? Grove correct depth and width? Thanks.

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

The pulley I ordered was by Mr. Gasket It's chrome.
Summit MRG-8826, Mfr. #: 8826
Water Pump Pulley, V-belt Style, 1-groove, Steel, Chrome, 6.125 in. O.D., Ford,289

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

I hope it works. The Mustang single pulleys have an overall depth of 2 3/8-2 7/16. My OEM 55 wp pulley has an overall depth of less than 2."

By oldcarmark - 4 Years Ago

Will these Pulleys work on non Thunderbird passenger cars?

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

I'll let you know.

By Hoosier Hurricane - 4 Years Ago

Mark, I think the T-Bird pulleys are "deeper" than the passenger car pulleys.

By DryLakesRacer - 4 Years Ago

oldcarmark, here are photos of the Mustang single belt water pump pulley from Summit on a 56 Ford Victoria 292 painted black. When I did it, I put one of the spacers I bought from Summit at the same time. They sell the spacer kit with 3 thin spacers to help with belt alignment. Since that time AC was added and the alternator moved from the bottom to the top. I used the last two spacers to the front of the pulley so the fan would clear the 3rd pulley for the AC pump and would help centering the fan in the shroud. There was just enough of the hub to still center the fan.

By 55blacktie - 4 Years Ago

I remeasured the depth of my OEM 55 T-bird wp pulley. It is exactly 1 13/16."

By Cliff - 4 Years Ago

A slant 6 water pump pulley fits with no spacers (Dodge, Plymouth), early ones have the correct belt width, newer ones have a narrow belt (will still work).

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

The 6" chrome Summit water pump pulley I purchased is about 1/2 Inch longer than the stock Tbird pulley. The Tbird belt width is also wider. It could be made to work with 1/2" shims. Looks like I'll be buying the Casco pulley. Hope it's worth the money.

By yblock57 - 4 Years Ago

A little late to the party. Recently installed the casco pump on the '57 bird along with the larger 170* thermostat and some parts house 'water wetter' additive. Nothing else was changed. Still running stock brass radiator (re-cored) & water pump pulley. I do have a/c with a 6 blade fan. No electric fans.

I can idle the car for 25 min in the garage and the temp gauge never creeps past halfway. Could not get away with this before the new pump. Considered the updated spacer behind the pump but wanted to try the pump first to try and save some $$$. Looks like the pump & thermostat did the trick for me.

By Cliff - 4 Years Ago

Hi, Consider blue printing your stock pump, there is a spec for the impeller to the housing, I think you will find the problem for no flow at idle.

By 2721955meteor - 4 Years Ago

re over heating. from reading all the posts' am puzzled, by coating exhaust manifolds and installing with no gasket so heat goes into the heads makes no scents, when the object is heating issues. my experience as a licensed hd mechanic, and retired service manager for the largest cat dealer globally tells me getting as much heat as possible out the exhaust and away from the engine cooling system.is paramount.
exhaust gaskets and grade 8 bolts with proper flat washers will eliminate leaks. why grade 8 they are stronger and will stretch,and return to original length. the thick grade 8 flats will compensate for the crude holes in exhaust manifolds.
exhaust manifolds on turboed Diesel engines run red-hot for years and use grade 8 with hardened washers and the turbo is at the end as high exhaust temp speeds up the turbo.
several years ago on this site a guy addressed the bird heating, replaced the shroud flushed the rad and engine water installed, new therm, removed blocked bypass no more heating issues. the speeding the water pump seems a positive upgrade. but remember cavitation is a un seen monster.
some will ignore my chatter, the other is a buyas to only listening to certain posters. thats ok

By Joe-JDC - 4 Years Ago

Installing the exhaust manifolds directly to the heads will not cause the heads to run hotter. Ford did it that way on millions of engines. We put gaskets there because of rust pitting and imperfections to seal those pitting issues. The gasket really doesn't affect head temperature significantly. It is a seal issue. New vehicles use steel shims as a gasket material, and that does not insulate the exhaust from the heads. Joe-JDC

By 2721955meteor - 4 Years Ago

Joe-JDC (4/30/2021)

FORD DID NOT MAKE MILLIONS OF YBLOCKS IN TBIRDS WITH USELES MADE SPACER FOR WATER PUMPS.STEEL SHIMED GASKETS IN MILLION OF ENGINES WHER FINE. BUT MILLIONS OF FORD V8 ENGINES WHER FAMOUS FOR BROKEN AND LOOSENING CAPSCREWS WITH POOR LOCKTABS. HAD THEY USED GOOD HARDWARE AND WASHERS 1/2 AMILLION WOULD HAVE BIN OK. REFERENCE TO HEAT TRANSFER CAME FROME COATING EXHAST MANIFOLDS,IN A ATEMPT TO KEEP THEN TIGHT AND PUTING MORE HEAT INTO HEADS,THAT DID NOTHING TO HELP HEATING TBIRDS 5 6AND 7.

By Joe-JDC - 4 Years Ago

??? I guess I don't understand your statements or questions in either post. My Thunderbird drives around here in San Antonio, TX and idles just fine with AC, alternator, but will get up to 190* if driven hard from traffic light to the next traffic light, then cools down at idle. Joe-JDC

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

To be honest, I don't know how hot my engine actually gets. I never have any temp issues until the heat of the summer. Even then, it's only in traffic on 90 degree days. My SW temp gauge reads 170-180 degrees normally. This matches my 170 degree thermostat. In traffic, the needle goes past the 180 degree mark, maybe to 200 or so. I have never let it go any further, so I don't know what would happen. I have never experienced any steam or over coolant overflow. Perhaps my worry is unfounded? Did I mention my block is .060" over?

By charliemccraney - 4 Years Ago

If you don't know the temp and you don't let it go any farther than what you think is 200, then you just don't know.

It may be stabilize and if it doesn't boil over on the hottest days, it is fine. If it continues to rise until boil over, then it needs improvement.

One thing to keep in mind when using a gauge is, because of the sender location and assuming it is accurate, the temperature at the thermostat will be 10 - 15 degrees hotter. You can check this with a laser thermometer. Knowing the accuracy of the gauge and then the change in temp between the sender and thermostat will then give you a better idea of when the temp is getting toward the danger zone, according to the coolant mix and cap pressure.

By Joe-JDC - 4 Years Ago

I have an oil pressure gage and temperature gage added because the original Ford gages were erratic. Joe-JDC

By 2721955meteor - 4 Years Ago

I was trying to reply about coating the exhaust and over heating. earlier a post came to light saying fan shroud speeding up the water pump made the most cents.BUT THE ENGINEERING FORD DID ON 292/312S INTO THE TBIRDS WAS A MESS. the 1st t bird I salvaged was a 1955,i built a 312 up 4v carb,57 CAMREGRIND 57 intake and diet. I found a shroud, made a adaptor for the water pump drive(used the car pump. original rad, cleaned.
drove it for3 years, no heating issues no loose exhaust(gaskets with grad8 bolts and hardened flats.
my first y was a 272 in a 2door always bolts coming loose.reason the grade junk bolts ford use wold stretch,never return to original length.
put dual exhaust(proper conversion 1new manifold(driver side) grade 8 with hardened washers, never came loose. sold the care when it hit 90,000 miles.. as a 18year old slightly crazy plat out all the time,1mile steep hill hot weather no heating.
was I was trying to say older posts where correct and possibly they needed to be revisited, if you want a 55/57 bird you want it to be stock, other wise its not a bird, hear in bc canada you can get a collector plate ,gives you insurance and licence for 230. Canadian funds. to me that is the real bird won't stir the soup any more

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

2721955meteor (5/1/2021)

if you want a 55/57 bird you want it to be stock, other wise its not a bird

Who wants to own an old car you can't drive? When I bought my car, it was mostly original. My 1955 drum brakes sucked. Six volt electrical systems were horrible. Thankfully, a previous owner changed my car to 12 volts, In 1956, Ford changed to twelve volts and kept them to the present time. 1955 cars overheat in modern traffic. The steering is sloppy and they ride like a truck. I understand those who want to keep their TBirds as built. If I had TBird #1, I wouldn't touch it either. I'm not a big fan of the restomod craze. If you change too much you lose the car's soul. Making reliability and safety improvements are a good thing.

By 2721955meteor - 4 Years Ago

Florida_Phil (5/1/2021)

2721955meteor (5/1/2021)

if you want a 55/57 bird you want it to be stock, other wise its not a bird

if steering is serviced ,ball-points tyros replaced they handle fine, the starting is easy to rectify,auxilery elect fuel pumps float. capacity no hell if car parked for a week.(speaking ov teapot 4v. up the charge rate simple to do. have the 6volt starter rebuilt by a shop than under stands. have repairs 2 birds this way and. several flatheads. these cars all now have bc collector plates. Some enthusiasts have deep pockets and upgrade electric, no argument on the brakes

By 56Tbird - 4 Years Ago

I had the same problem with my 56 Tbird. I also have an aluminum radiator and electric fan. Also A/C. I solved it by using the CASCO high output water pump and using a large opening 180 degree thermostat . I'm using a 7 inch pulley.
I never see more then 190 degrees even in the Texas summer heat.

CASCO did an extensive test and their high output water pump flowed more GPH than any other combo. See their test at https://www.classictbird.com/pdf/H2O-pump-test-results.pdf

By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago

As stated in this article, there are many factors involved in controlling engine temperature. Radiators, fans, shrouds, ignition timing, accessories, air and coolant flow vary with each car. So much Voodoo has grown up around this issue, it's difficult to know what works and what doesn't. When you start writing checks, you want to know the facts.

By yblock57 - 4 Years Ago

Florida_Phil (5/3/2021)

Couldn't have said it better! Good luck with your '55. Really cool car!