Replaced coil wire on '56 Fairlane that wound't start Home » Keeping The Dream Alive! » Technical http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic152816.aspx

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By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Earlier I remarked about the '56 Fairlane with electronic distributor and modern Summit carb and how it got hot and would't start. Well, I was advised to replace coil wire. Did so, went for 10 mile run, no problems, returned home, let car idle in place for 10 minutes, no fan, turned off, restated in 10 minutes. NO PROBLEMS...FIRED UP LIKE IT ALWAYS!!! Happy Farilane owner. Thanks to all for the advice, Tim  Wrinkle Beach, Florida 33706 By Florida_Phil - 4 Years Ago My buddy's 64 Galaxie had the same problem.  It would run fine then out of nowhere it wouldn't start.  I chased it for a week and it finally quit long enough for me to find the problem.  His ignition wires had carbon centers. One end of the coil wire was burnt causing the spark to jump the gap.  It's been about a year with no more problems.   Lesson learned.  By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago My coil wire was the same, burnt at the end going into the coil. Thanks for you help. Tim Waiting room for Heaven, FL 33606 By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Good Morning, So the coil wire was replaced. Sunday, went for a 15 mile run to visit a friend. Car ran great. After an hour visit, car wouldn't start. Replaced coil wire (again) and drove 10 miles and car died at red light. Had an extra coil wire, installed and drove 5 miles home. Got in garage, waited 10 minutes, it would not start. Monday, called Mfg of new coil "MASTERPRO IGNITIONS", nice people, recommended a ballast resistor or a coil with an internal resistor. On line they are used on Ford tractors. I have a ballast resistor, should it be installed ? Any other problem solving ideas out there ? Thanks in advance, Tim  Hot 'n Humid,  FL 33706 By Lord Gaga - 4 Years Ago Mfg of new coil "MASTERPRO IGNITIONS", nice people: Recommended a ballast resistor or a coil with an internal resistor. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago There is no such thing as "FREE" By charliemccraney - 4 Years Ago Consult the instructions and / or contact the manufacturer of the electronic distributor to ensure that the coil matches and for guidance about the ballast resistor. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago I tried contacting them on Monday by phone and then an email. They could be on vacation or out of business. Their web site is still up and running. CRTPERFOMANCE.COM  I agree with you that the coil has to be comparable with the HEI distributor. When I bought the HEI, I had a Pertronic unit with a 40,000 watt coil . Roger at CRT Performance said it would work fine with the distributor. I'm not sure what the watts are on this new MasterPro coil that we bought at O'Reilly's. Will be checking that out. And I'm going to check out an coil with an internal resistor. Thanks for you support and help. Tim Florida  33706 By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago Are you trying to keep the cylindrical coil - or is a modern "E-type" with high temp wire allowable? The key issue is how many OHMs the coil or combined coil and ballast resistor are placing in the circuit. The Motorola "chip" (or a copy) that the common HEI type ignitions are using runs as many amps as it takes to "saturate" the coil. It varies the "dwell" to do this. They often need a pretty big power wire when using a low OHM coil. The "high voltage" that coil manufacturers advertise like crazy - "50,000 volts" is a common ad - only refers to the insulation properties of the winding wire. In practice the coils are firing at about 10,000 to 12,000 volts so plenty of safety factor. One of the "CD" type ignitions is a different animal  - they deliver high voltage / low amps. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Thanks for your informative information. The new coil is a ACCELL #8140 that is advertised to have 42,000 volts. Also, and this is a test, I used two strands of # 10 copper wire wrapped together as a coil wire. This works, but have not driven the car any distance (15 miles or more) All I know is that after the car cools down for 30 to 45 minutes, it fires right up. Thanks again, Tim Hot 'n Humid Florida 33706 By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago I haven't looked at one of the units you have - but if the trigger and "controller" (transistor package) are built into a single unit - and then captured inside the distributor body.......... the unit has to have a secure body ground wire (to the block) - and the controller has to be transferring heat out of the electronics as well as grounding it to the body. On a GM HEI unit - carried inside the distributor - the unit has to be clamped down with "couplant" (heat transfer paste) - a dry surface beneath one is trouble. Most of these gadgets have a protective "interrupter" circuit to prevent overtemp from destroying the electronics. When it cools down - they turn back on. Sounds like what is happening to yours. I haven't looked up the Accell #8140 - but you are interested in the OHMs of internal resistance they report. The 42K volts is the dielectric resistance of the wire in the coil - not the output of the unit. Later: looked up the #8140 coil - primary OHMs are shown as 1.4 only diagram I could find for this set-up By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Right now  the ground is to the fire wall, I'll move it to the block and see what happens. The funny part of this equation is that for last 3 years and 8 months the ground has been to the fire wall with no problems. Last summer drove to Detroit and back with no problems. All the problems started this summer.....WHY?????? Thanks again, Tim Wet, Florida 33706 By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago The illustration I found shows a key switch to the coil power - don't. On the systems I've built, I used a power relay for the heavy lead to the coil - and left that wiring outside the passenger compartment. The key switch fires the relay. A jumper from the starter solenoid will give it power while cranking. The highest electrical potential on the vehicle (volts) exists between the frame of the generator/alternator and its output lead. Since it is usually bolted to the block - the engine block is the next best ground available.  Ford had service problems with the old Duraspark II ignitions of the seventies - the distributor ground was wired back to the controller box on the fender liner. Adding a wire from the block to the distributor body made many gremlins go away. There were other troubles - but this one was easy.....  By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Correct, the + coil wire is connected to the ignition switch. We can change that. Want to let you know that I've added a ground to the block and left the fire wall ground in place ( u  can never have too many grounds) Will send you an update. Big thanks, Tiny Tim Fl 33706 By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago If you can live with an E-core coil - consider switching to one. They are built with high temp wire to accommodate the HEI type of electronics. The design is configured to maximize the amount of amps fed into the coil - and that means plenty of heat. The old oil filled cylindrical coils just can't deal with the heat so they must have a ballast resistor to deal with the current. The term "E-core" refers to the shape of the steel armature plates upon which the coil wire is wound. The Ford "TFI" ignition used an E-core coil that is easy to come by at the yunk yard along with a mounting bracket and an adaptable snap-on connector for wiring. They are about 1.2 OHMs primary resistance and high temp resistant.   By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Had an e-coil like that on my last car, never had any problems, In the mean time, would a ballast resistor help to keep the new Accel coil cooler ? What do you think ? Tim in Florida By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago The resistor will help lower the coil temp - but it will be getting hot too. The design of the HEI chip is to dump amps and the resistor will be taking some of it. I tried a heavy duty Mallory resistor on one of my systems and it "died" at an early age. Why not just get a low resistance high amp, heat resistant coil and run it? The energy eaten by the resistor doesn't go to the plug - and the energy stored in the coil fires it. So performance of the spark producing system is reduced as the total resistance rises. Here are the coil energy traces of a low resistance coil and a higher one. The area "under the curve" is indicative of the stored energy that goes into the spark...... By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Going to order the external ignition coil. I've also ordered an other new HEI distributor. When they are all here, I install and let you know. Again, Big Thanks, Tim Florida 33706 By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago Tim - it occurs to me that a "mystery" I encountered might be tripping you. The start position of my t-bird dash switch did not result in power to the coil. In "run" all was well - but turning to "start" the coil was being powered by a jumper from the solenoid on the firewall. So a quick spin of the engine and releasing the key would (sometimes) make the engine "catch" and run. But this wasn't consistent. The wiring diagram I sent earlier doesn't necessarily show this Ford type of switch - instead maybe a GM version where "start" also powers the coil. On the t-bird this "jumper" from the solenoid also entered the circuit in such a way as to eliminate the resistor and directly energize the coil - an extra energy burst that would not damage the old oil filled coil. You could check for this by lifting the heavy lead down to the starter motor and looking for coil power with a meter - when turning the switch to "start".. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Will do that test and advise. Thanks, Tim Florida By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago Tim - I found the diagram that shows the stock wiring to the coil on my '56. The solenoid has four posts - and one small post is the incoming "start" command from the dash - the other has the "jumper" I found was going to the coil. This was in the original wiring harness I dissected to invent my own wiring harness. This same post is used on the late seventies electronic Duraspark II to provide a starting signal to the control box through the "white" wire. When live the box retards the ignition 10º for starting purposes - works well if you are using the Ford controller. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Big help with problem. Thanks again Tim Florida 33706 By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, PROBLEM SOLVED .........YIPPIE SKIPPIE !!!!! Replaced the almost 4 year old HEI distributor from TSP (Top Street Performance) and installed a E-CORE Ignition Coil JM6930 R from TSP. Did a road and idle test and the '56 fired right up like it should. Thanks for you support and time, Tim Hot 'n Humid, FL 33706 By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago Tim - glad to hear of success! The new TSP coil - does it have a "nameplate" primary OHMs rating? It will be a clue as to the design of the electronics in the distributor.  By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, PROBLEM SOLVED !!!! I replaced the almost 4 year old HEI distributor from By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Here is product information on the TSP E-core coil gnition Coil Block (JM6930R) by TSP®. TSP's E-Core Ignition Coil has a new design that better dissipates heat. Its square shape allows for easy mounting on a firewall or fender, and it comes with a plug wire connector for a clean installation. The E-Core magnet puts out 50,000 volts, or about 70% more spark energy over most stock applications, giving you a much hotter and larger spark to burn fuel more efficiently and provide smooth acceleration thoroughout the entire RPM band. AIn our online store you can get this superior replacement product and take advantage of its impeccable design. Carefully engineered to OE specifications, it exactly replicates the factory part in look, fit, and function. This product is expertly crafted from top-quality materials to serve you reliably for many years ahead. more details on - https://www.carid.com/tsp/e-core-remote-ignition-coil-for-distributor-ignition-mpn-jm6930r.html?singleid=1653281705?utm_source=email&utm_medium=order&utm_campaign=order_tracking_number By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago Tim - Followed your link, Thanks....  Info says primary OHMs for that coil is .350 - which is typical for the HEI operating system. With a common automotive electrical system, 13.5 volts could be expected as the running value. So "inrush" with the circuit closed could be as high as 38.6 amps. This isn't steady - the coil; is constantly firing - 4 times per engine rev. The HEI circuitry will try to keep that circuit closed as long as possible every revolution. But......those amps have to be coming into the coil through the wire you said "gets hot" which is also being handled (on a stock electrical system) through the key switch. At night it would also be carrying the lights, radio and so -on. So please consider the use of a power relay under the hood arrangement to protect your wiring in the dash. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Could you hep me better understand you writings: "So please consider the use of a power relay under the hood arrangement to protect your wiring in the dash." Thanks, Tim PS: The Accel coil was getting hot, not the wires. New coil runs normal her range By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Steve, Typing error: I meant to say that he new E-core coil is running in a normal heat range. Regards, Tim By GREENBIRD56 - 4 Years Ago The meaning of my note - there is the potential for the newer sort of electronic distributor and coil to pull a lot of amps through your stock wiring system. More than could be expected with the old original coil and ballast resistor. By Gene Purser - 4 Years Ago Tim, do you mind telling us what brand of distributor failed? By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Gene, It came from TSP....Top Street Performance,www.topstreetperformance.com item # JM6930R. cost $167.00 I had it for 3 years and 9 months. Can't say how many miles are on it but one of the problems is corrosion. We live on a Bay and the Gulf is 3 blocks away here in Florida.  Salt water, salt air , humidity could have helped it fail. Regards, Tim  Damp 'n Humid FL 33706 By charliemccraney - 4 Years Ago TSP is one of the many rebranded Chinese MSD copies.  If you see a distributor that looks like MSD but about 1/3 of the price, this is it.  I've heard of the genuine MSD having corrosion and other issues, as well. By Tim Quinn - 4 Years Ago Charlie, Like I said, "living on a salt water bay and being 3 blocks from the Gulf of Mexico is not health for products that have attendance to corrode. I put a dab of electrostatic grease on the contact areas of this new distributor. I'll pull it out next year and see what it looks like. Regards, Tim Salt Air, Florida 33706