Redline


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By Jim Yergin - 5 Years Ago
I do not drive my '56 Third 312 aggressively but out of curiosity, is there a "redline" rpm? The factory 5000 rpm tachometer has no such markings.
Jim Yergin
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
Personally, I would never take a stock YBlock over 5,500 rpm.  The weak link are the heads and the push rods may as well be made out of spaghetti.  My motor has "G" heads, tubular push rods, ARP rod bolts and it has been balanced.  It also has an 301333 Isky cam. I don't think it would make any more power at 7,000 rpm even if it hung together.  Maybe if I had aluminum heads, headers and a better intake?  Even then, I wouldn't chance it.
By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
The little 303Y block for EMC this year was dyno tested from 4100-7100 rpms, and has 52 dyno pulls on it so far.  Ford crankshaft, 113 heads, .591" lift camshaft.  There is a lot of work involved, but the crankshaft and heads do not seem to be a hinderance to rpm.  Any well prepared/rebuilt 292/312 should be capable of 6500 rpm with a camshaft that is ground for the purpose.  The Y Block is a strong platform that responds remarkably well to performance upgrades, in my opinion.  We made 390 lbft torque, and 453 hp with iron heads, 10.4:1 compression, and 303 cubic inches.   Joe-JDC
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
I know I will get in trouble for saying this, but here goes.  I have no doubt it is possible to build a Y Block that will live at 7,000 RPM.  Y Block parts are expensive.  I have $5K in my motor and it's basically stock.  If I blow up a modern engine, no big deal.  I order new parts from Summit or Jegs. If I blow up my Y Block I may not be able to find a replacement. 

I own a Y Block because it brings back memories, not because it revs to 7,000 rpm.  The sound the starter makes when I crank it,  the burble from the dual exhaust, the oil dripping on the floor of my garage and the feel I get when I grab second gear.  Everything about my Y Block brings me back to the early sixties when I was working for $1.25 a hour bagging groceries.   Back then I drove like a crazy person.  I broke transmissions.  I broke differentials.  I bought engines for $50 and blew them up in three days.   If you want to know the upper rpm limit of a Y Block, it's not hard to find.

The question is not how high you can rev a Y Block, it's how many do you want to buy?
By Gene Purser - 5 Years Ago
I had a stock 312 rebuilt several years ago and had the same question. An old, trusted mechanic told me that there was a different valve spring keeper for the higher performance 312s. Without the special keepers, don't rev it over 5500. I took him at his word, and the engine is still running today for a younger owner. 
By slumlord444 - 5 Years Ago
My experience with a stock 292 and 312 was that the limit was about 5500 mainly because thats all the further the stock cam and valve springs will go. The skinny '56 pushrods are an issue. The later tublar pushrods are tough. If it's put together right and ballanced the stock pistond, crank, and later heavy duty rods will live at 6000 to 6500 rpm with an appropriate cam. No need for the non hot rod driver to ever take one over 4500to 5000 rpm. They should live forever driven like that and properly maintained.
By Robs36Ford - 5 Years Ago
I have pushed my 312Y to near 7000 a few times but I doubt I'll go there again without ARP bolts in it. It has a 3/4 race cam, Teapot Carb, solid pushrods, balanced crank, dual exhaust, G heads and new valve springs. Power definitely drops off at 6500, then again, my car is not exactly aerodynamic either. Leaks a bit more oil on the floor than before but still runs like a scare cat! Cool
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
Y Blocks are torquey engines.  Scrubys rev.  We found that out years ago.  I could always get a jump on anything with a 283 in it.  A fuelie might catch you a block later.  One night a 57 scruby showed up with a 301, 4 speed and a 5.13 gear.  After that experience, I swapped an FE into my car.  That changed the game. 

Y Block cars are cool.  Our car club has about 4-5 of them. It's surprising how many have modern carbs with Loadamatic distributors.  Most owners don't know the difference the right distributor can make.
By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
I could always get a jump on anything with a 283 in it.  A fuelie might catch you a block later.  One night a 57 scruby showed up with a 301, 4 speed and a 5.13 gear.  After that experience, I swapped an FE into my car.  That changed the game. 


Now what car type were you running then, FORD or BIRD?

In that time period, I tried to stay within NHRA rules of the period for street, i.e. STOCK, SUPER STOCK, MP or possibly GAS.

The point (to me anyway) is to run with a SBC with a Y, maybe SBF at the most. With that FE, you know somebody is going to show up with a 396/375 NOVA.

If you had to bring an FE to the game to outrun a SBC, it isn't a fair fight to me. The fight should have been with a 348/409 car.

Your tales bring back a lot of memories ...
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
In the early sixties most of our racing was "run what you brung" midnight street racing.  Most of those races where over early.  A hard leaving car was better than one that would rev to 7,000 rpm.  Fords had an advantage as they normally ran better in stock trim.  I had a 1957 Ford custom 300 with a 292, a three speed manual transmission and a 3.90 gear.  It wasn't the fastest car in the world, but it outran a lot of cars that claimed to be faster.  

Later in the sixties, the game changed.   Factory muscle cars showed up with big blocks motors.  Back then you could buy a brand new 427 Ford medium riser engine in a wood crate for $1,200 from your local Ford dealer.  These motors came complete with carbs to oil pan.  You could put one of these engines into most anything and kick butt.  John Vermeersch in Detroit sold me some stroker pistons to make a 450 cu. in. 427 with a 428 crankshaft.  Here's an old photo below.

I ran that engine in a 1961 Starliner for a while, then transplanted it into a 1966 Fairlane.  The Fairlane was an all out race car with rear tubs and big Mickey Thompsons tucked inside the fender wheels.  It ran mid elevens at the drag strip.  I drove it on the street.  The drag strip opened around that time and we quit street racing.   When bracket racing came in, I lost interest.   Brake light racing is not racing.  These days all my racing is done on a bench.

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/d1366cfa-8f77-4263-a8d9-ab2a.jpg


By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
The drag strip opened around that time and we quit street racing.   When bracket racing came in, I lost interest. Brake light racing is not racing. 


Two things caused the end of racing - SMOG/UNLEADED FUEL/INSURANCE and BRACKET RACING.
Never could figure out racing and it's cost to see how well the brakes worked.

That scrub had to be a SAT NIGHT SPECIAL with those rear ears.

DAMN I miss the night cruises and SAT @ the junk yards. And I miss reverberaters ...
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
The discussions on this part of the forum are technical in nature and very helpful.  We should start a thread somewhere else so we can talk about the old days.  I'm not sure the younger members would find it all that interesting.   Might be fun? 
By LordMrFord - 5 Years Ago
Florida_Phil (10/17/2019)
Y Blocks are torquey engines.  Scrubys rev.




Hollow Heads dragster revved 9178 in burnout when I forgot put the limiter on.
Sounded quite nice. Smile
Seppo might find that video clip from somewhere in his hard drive.
By PF Arcand - 5 Years Ago
..Getting back to Jim's original question!.. At some point years ago, Ford issued a bulletin about max RPMs for Y-Block regular stock valve trains. The max recommended was" 5400 RPM".  Of course this was not for Police kits or "F" code setups..  The real weak piece above  was likely the std. pushrods..

Note: Don't know if they are available anymore, but Schumann's Sales in Blue Grass Iowa used to advertise Police service valve train kits. H.D pushrods were sold seperately.  Also available was or is H.D. oil grooved Rocker Arm Shafts.. (J. Mummert sells the same ones I believe.)  Schumann's phone # is (563) 381-2416 or Fax (563) 381-2409.. ( No internet sales there)
By Hollow Head - 5 Years Ago
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/f098f167-3062-4529-bc95-a1c8.png

That is the original Simo's data capture from that run. White line shows max peak rpm 9178 but that was just a sudden peak with tires loose... But, it didn't broke to that.  Stock forged crankshaft with Callies Compstar H profile 6.5 inch rods rated to 800 HP. Well, we have exceeded that by over 170 hp by the dyno sheet...

By Jim Yergin - 5 Years Ago
Thank you Paul. That is good to know.
Jim Yergin
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
If you are going to rev a YBlock to 9,000 rpm, you better bring a butterfly net and a dust pan. (joke) Hehe
By mark9088 - 5 Years Ago
Old time heads-up racing is still alive in the nostalgia events/groups in the mid-west. check out nostagia gassers racing assoc., brew city gassers, great lakes gassers, etc.
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
Years ago I used to race regularly at Miami Hollywood Raceway Park and Moroso in Florida. I was walking though the pits one day and saw a Mustang drag car.  When I walked by to look at the engine, I almost fell over.  The Mustang had a YBlock with a custom sheet metal intake.  One of my friends told me it ran in a special class for early engines.  I don't remember seeing it run. 
By tbirddragracer - 5 Years Ago
I have always enjoyed racing, street ( years ago ) or on the strip.
 The T-Bird races in the early '90's sponsored by the Big D Little Birds in Dallas was a lot of fun.
The races in the early years were mostly stock T-Birds, but by the time the races were discontinued,
high performance engines were used. My engine built by John Mummert, and freshened up by Ted Eaton was high revving.
My shift light was set at 7000 rpm and rev limiter at 8000. The engine developed in excess of 450 hp with a 300 hp nitrous added.
High rpms are possible with a correctly built engine. Heads-up racing is great, but is usually won by who spends the most money,
( hp costs $$$$ ). Bracket racing leveled the field, but required additional attention to a whole set of new challenges.
Ernie


By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
You had some real money in that YBlock.  I keep thinking about those tiny rods spinning around at 8,000 rpm.  I assume you used forged truck pieces?   The block is definitely strong enough. 

YBlocks were the first hot rod engines we could afford.  We bought whole cars for $100-$200.  Changed them over to a manual transmission if need be.  Swapped on a four barrel, added a 3.89 or 4.11 gear and you had an instant racer.  Those cars would burn a black streak on the road for a hundred feet.  If we blew an engine, we could buy another one for $50.  Back then, 1957 motors were what we wanted.  Luckily they were all over the place.  Here's a photo of a 57 Victoria I built in the 80s.

I own YBlocks for the memories.  Every time I open the hood on my TBird it makes me smile.  I think about all the Sunday nights I worked to get my car running so I could go to work on Monday.  I think about the clicking noise my Dad's 57 Custom made because the rockers were wore out.  I think about taking my girl friend to the drive in and the prom in that car. I don't have that car anymore.   I still have that girl friend.  Rolleyes

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/fba80ed9-193d-4a2c-b016-4905.jpg



By Dave C - 5 Years Ago
tbirddragracer (10/27/2019)
I have always enjoyed racing, street ( years ago ) or on the strip.
 The T-Bird races in the early '90's sponsored by the Big D Little Birds in Dallas was a lot of fun.
The races in the early years were mostly stock T-Birds, but by the time the races were discontinued,
high performance engines were used. My engine built by John Mummert, and freshened up by Ted Eaton was high revving.
My shift light was set at 7000 rpm and rev limiter at 8000. The engine developed in excess of 450 hp with a 300 hp nitrous added.
High rpms are possible with a correctly built engine. Heads-up racing is great, but is usually won by who spends the most money,
( hp costs $$$$ ). Bracket racing leveled the field, but required additional attention to a whole set of new challenges.
Ernie





Never raced a Y block except on the street as a teenager.
But I have drag raced on the track since 69. Started out running F/G in a Mustang.
About 1980 or so class racing pretty much died at least in the area where I lived at the time, I fought the bracket racing form of racing for a couple of years
but towing and hotels were just to expensive. Several kids would come into my shop talking about bracket racing and convinced me to give it a try. Now I only laugh and shake my head at the Anti bracket racers. Most are clueless as to what goes on in a bracket race and the skills and knowledge to do it well, I'll say the same thing about the ones who dislike index or 8.90, 9.90, 10.90 class racing. Clueless as to what it takes to be good at it.
In a class race (stock, super stock, modified, or most sportsman classes)when 2 cars of different classes race each other one gets a head start, the only heads up race is if both cars are in the same class. Then the other chases him down to take the finish line. But if the winner runs faster than his index at some point they will have their factor changed. So what do they do... LOL, they slam on the brakes to only take a minimum of stripe. Same as a bracket racer.
I've worked for IHRA since I before I retired in 2003 and have stood at the finish line many days and watched them get on the brakes.
Totally agree with you tbirddragracer. Brackets leveled the field up to a point. But the guy with the big bucks still has an advantage, It's just not a guaranteed win as It was back in the older days..

Dave

By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
I started drag racing as soon as I got a driver's license.  It was all street racing at first. Mostly YBlocks.  Got a lot of tickets.  Luckily, I didn't hurt myself or anyone else.  When a drag strip opened at the local airport, I moved off the street.  When Hollywood Dragway opened, it got serious. We moved to big blocks with a 1963 406 Galaxie that ran in the 12s with an automatic. When Cobra Jets came out, my buddy and I each bought one.  Mine was a daily driver and I raced it in pure stock against Road Runners and Z28s.  His was a Super Stock car and did quite well.

Over the years I've built and owned dozens of hot rods.  57 Fords, 406/427 Galaxies and Fairlanes, Shelby Mustangs, a Sunbeam tiger and at least a dozen Mustangs.  Throw in a few GMs, Mopars and some sports cars and I don't think I missed much. Some of them I wish I had back.

Bracket racing changed everything.  I bought a 1967 Camaro from a local racer.  I built a .060 over 454 with aluminum heads and a power glide.  The car would run 10.6s all day long.  My wife and I towed the car all over Florida and ran every race we could.  Bracket racing is not racing.  It's a contest to see who can build and drive the most consistent race car.  You can have all the money in the world and someone who is better at the game will take the money.  I quit racing when I got burned one night in Tampa.  Nothing serious, but it taught me a lesson.

I have friends who are serious bracket racers.  I understand that game.  These days all my racing is done on the Internet or in my mind.
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
Very cool.  Bracket racing is a money maker, it's just not real racing in my opinion.  Bracket racing gives people a chance to run their cars and exercise their brakes.  Real racing is heads up racing.  I understand all the reasons why bracket racing came about.  It's very popular and we enjoyed it as a participant. As a spectator, it's about as boring as it gets.   Who wants to watch two computer controlled cars crawl off the line trying not to run too quick?  Maybe I'm too old to get it?
By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
Bracket racing IS real racing.  Like Ted, I always pushed the other car to the limit to beat me, and most races were won at the tree.  My '69 Mach I was raced with 302 SBF, 351 SBF, 428 CJ, and 452 MR for over 25 years as a bracket car.  The name on the car was "Closing Fast" since I usually had to spot the other lane, and was always "closing fast" on the big end of the track.  Won my fair share of races and money.  Racing is about the driver and their ability to react quicker than the other driver, and control the car in a consistent manner from start to finish.  Time runs are just that, they tell you what the vehicle is capable of, but racing is a driver's game.  Joe-JDC
By Lord Gaga - 5 Years Ago
I'd rather watch reruns of 'Little House on the Prairie' than participate in bracket racing, especially with an automatic transmission car! http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/98d71d31-7de8-48bf-91dc-60a8.jpg
By mark9088 - 5 Years Ago
the correct terminology should be "bracket competition", by definition, the winner of a race is the first one to cross the finish line. not the case in bracket competition. My first NHRA sanctioned race was in 1966 at Minnesota Dragways in O/ stock, 56 Ford 292. Been competing on and off since then, sold my bracket/index car (66 Fairlane) a year ago and running my 56 Ford gasser  in nostalgia /heads up events whenever I can.
By tbirddragracer - 5 Years Ago
A person's preference as to head's up racing or bracket racing is a personal choice.I have no complaint as to how you state your preference.
I have had the good luck to be successful as a heads-up racer and a bracket racer.From my personal experience, heads-up racing is easier and requires less skill than bracket racing. Heads-up racing, you rev it up and let it go, then you let up. Bracket racing is different.A bracket racer has to factor the following items:
Reaction Time -- very critical - most races won or lost at the line
Dial -in Time -- you have to know your car's capabilities
Break-out Time --  critical -- I prefer to set at barely above car's limitations
Finish Line -- Beat the car next to you
I have raced 3 speed manuals, 4 speed manuals, and automatics, all are fun. An automatic is special, you are on the rev limiter at 3800 rpm, 500 hp, let go of the trans brake, an additional 300 hp nitrous kicks in, hard on the wheelie bars, PERFECT ( no other description ).   Ernie
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
Bracket racing was created to allow all racers to compete on an equal basis.  It's more a competition about who is more consistent than who is faster.  Open cars have a huge advantage as they have a better view of the race.  Back when I was bracket racing, the most frequent winners were always open street roadsters. It's frustrating to build a fast full bodied car and be beaten by a guy with a panoramic view and better brakes.  Bracket racing serves it's purpose and I'm not against it.  What gets me is watching fast cars bog off the line controlled by a computer.  What kind of racing is that?

The one thing I do like about bracket racing is the diversity of cars.  You never know what you might see.
By LordMrFord - 5 Years Ago
Bracket racing is for competitors and heads up is for spectators.

By the way it seems like your bracket racing price money is quite equal to our top fuel price money. : /
By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
Jungle Jim was right.  Professional drag racing classes have become all about TV rights and corporate sponsorship money.    Have you bought a ticket to an NHRA race lately?  Yikes!   What happened to match racing?  I once watched a grudge race in Miami for a suitcase full of cash.  I watched Doug Nash blow the doors off a blown fuel hemi funny car with an injected 289 Bronco.   All of today's top fuel cars are the same except for the body.  Pro stockers are practically identical as well.   Don't get me started on NASCAR.   What we need are races with cars you can buy off the showroom floor.  It would make the cars better and it might stir up some interest in our youth.  Hot rodding is about buying parts, working on your car and challenging your buddies.  I think it was Henry Ford who said  "The first car race came five minutes after the second car was built."  Who wants to watch a Focus ST outrun a Kia?  I would.  Rolleyes

Doug Nash bronco Buster
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/599a4b4f-07e1-4221-b8c7-4f6a.jpg
By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
If stock, 5000 rpm is probably about right.

There was a bulletin at some point about valve springs.  I think an RPM in that bulletin was 5500 but I don't recall if it was to make it 5500 rpm capable or capable of over 5500 rpm.  I'm sure someone has that bulletin to post.
By Ted - 5 Years Ago
I have to disagree on bracket racing not being a money maker.  Before bracket racing came into being, I was class racing and was always having to run off of some version of the national record.  Sort of like a bad form of bracket racing.  That was okay as I was able to run the record but there was always that one guy with the GM big block car in my class that could bomb the record in the final round.  That final round had no ‘break out’ rule when it came to running against the ‘record’ whereas running faster than the record in the previous rounds would be a disqualification.  It got old taking second place.
 
Bracket racing changed all that.  I had started off with a ’67 Comet with a 427 Tunnel Port with a four speed.  That car was quick but inconsistent and breakage was always a problem in the driveline area.  About the time bracket racing started to really rise in its popularity, I was in the ’64 Fairlane powered by a 428 with a power glide and it was deadly consistent.  That engine was quickly upgraded to a 427 High Riser.  It liked to be shifted at 6400 rpms and then let it go through the traps at 6800-7000 rpm depending upon the rear end gearing.  And I was there when the electronics first came out as I was not using electronics but had a field day with those that were.  That first two years of learning curve for all those that had electronics had that ’64 Fairlane at top of the heap when it came to wins.  Varying the launch rpms 200 rpms either way from 3200 would nail the reaction times to the teens run after run.
 
I remember building that first 427 HR engine for $2200 and the very first race it was in was a $5K win.  That engine was basically trouble free for nine years with just normal maintenance.  The transmission was being constantly upgraded as time went on though.  For nine years, there was always at least one big dollar race every month somewhere within travelling distance so I was not a one track car.  Just went to where the money was and did exceedingly well.  Many of those races required a minimum of six rounds of racing with seven rounds not being uncommon.  That ’64 Fairlane was well known in the local circles.  When the 427HR engine finally got tired, I put the back up 406 engine in the car and although it would only break into the 10’s with just the right weather, it was still a consistent bracket racer.
 
Here’s a picture of that car which now sits in storage.  It was retired with the 406 still in the engine bay.  While I tried to campaign that car along with the newer cars, it just cost too much to keep multiple cars going so the ’64 got parked.  While I’ve had much faster cars since that one, that ’64 still has the most memories.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/55aee086-239d-464f-944f-6c4b.jpg 
By Ted - 5 Years Ago
The reason I was successful at bracket racing was that I would make my dial in number ‘tough’.  That meant running it out the back door under power and I would typically make my dial in 0.01 quicker (tougher) than the car was capable of running.  If the weather or conditions changed in my favor, I would run dead on my number.  There was a giveaway program one year at the Texas Motorplex giving away free 12 volt batteries if you ran dead on your dial with the thousandths on the time slip being a zero.  I won two batteries that year.  As the weather changed during the race, I would redial accordingly.
 
Those that dialed their cars in on the soft side would either break out or hit the brakes if they saw that they had the other car ‘covered’.  For me, cutting consistent good lights at the tree while also running the car flat out the back door would put those ‘soft’ dialed cars on the trailer.  I saw very few drivers who sandbagged (dialed soft) ever make it to the final round.  I also witnessed wrecks where the cars would hit the brakes too heavily when approaching the end of the track.
 
There were different mentalities whether you were racing a faster car or if you had the faster car.  With the ’64 Fairlane, it was typically leaving the line first so it was to my advantage to run it out the back door and force the other car to play catch up.  The general rule was to always take the stripe first.  There was not much leeway for the other car to consider braking in that instance.  With my roadster which was running in the mid eights with a FE engine, it was quicker than most of the Pro field which gave the opportunity for the other driver to red light first.  It was an easy round win when that happened.  I had the same mentality with that car though as I always dialed tough and just ran it as hard as it would run out the back door.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/81efa59a-dd3b-4427-b9e8-1471.jpg 
Y Power here.