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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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This year, Ted and I are bringing another Y Block to the EMC. The rules are quite restrictive this time around, and it will be almost pure Ford Y block. It is a 292 +.062 and the stroke is 3.310" with 113 iron heads at 10.45:1 compression, Mike Jones camshaft with .591", Mummert dual plane intake, BG 930 DP carb, FPA Thunderbird headers, MSD ignition, belt driven water pump, etc. We have tried several combination of heads, valve sizes, valve springs, carbs, intakes, spacers, etc., and finally think we have a decent little Y for the challenge. There will be two 327 scrubys, 2 BB scrubys, 2 FEs, 2 Ford 429/460, Stude, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, 413 Chrysler, 289 SBF. and a couple of others I can't recall. We are scheduled to run 6th on Monday the 30th. Any guesses for horsepower and torque?
Joe-JDC
Joe D. Craine
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By NoShortcuts - 5 Years Ago
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Joe. Interesting field of diverse engine entrants. You and Ted have a 301+-ish C.I.D. y-block?
Best Wishes! Have a GooD time! 
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By FORD DEARBORN - 5 Years Ago
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The very best to you guys - awesome!
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Based on the earlier iron headed entries, and what''s been learned since, I'll guess 450hp and 425ftlbs.
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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (9/26/2019)
Based on the earlier iron headed entries, and what''s been learned since, I'll guess 450hp and 425ftlbs.
Charlie, there is not any hidden nitrous for that kind of torque! I wish! LOL It is a 292 street engine that can run on pump gas.
Joe-JDC
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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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NoShortcuts (9/25/2019)
Joe. Interesting field of diverse engine entrants. You and Ted have a 301+-ish C.I.D. y-block? Best Wishes! Have a GooD time!
It will be 3.812 x 3.31 for 302.214 cubic inches rounded up to 303 for calculations. Any fraction of a cubic inch gets rounded up to the next number. Joe-JDC
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Is it far off?
For 2007, I don't remember the results, but ted estimated 375ft lbs. http://www.eatonbalancing.com/2008/03/17/engine-masters-challenge-y-block-entry/
For 2009, it was 440s with the heads being a bottleneck and a lot more ci, http://www.eatonbalancing.com/2010/03/24/a-y-block-at-the-2009-engine-masters-challenge/
.
Still tough to compare with all of the rule changes between. Is it over 375ftlbs? I would at least think an improvement over 2007 since that would be the closest comparison.
Edit: I see my error. The 2007 estimate is based on E85, not 91 octane. What were the results for the very first one to run? Can't find that anymore.
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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Hate to post any real numbers until after the competition as the other competitors are likely looking to see what the other contestants in the class are doing. At this point though, it’s doubtful there much last minute changes going on with the engines being crated up and on their way to Ohio.
With all that in mind, I’ll just say over 303 HP and 257 lbs/ft torque. I’ll post the actual dyno sheets once the competition is concluded. It will be interesting to see how my DTS dyno compares to the SuperFlow dyno at JE Pistons.
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By John Mummert - 5 Years Ago
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Ted +100 403HP 357TQ .. You guy ran there last year, how did the numbers compare?
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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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It is hard to say how the dynos compare because they had unlimited in the compression ratio rules, and then supplied 100 octane Sunoco GT fuel that detonated 5 of 7 entries before they could establish a horsepower number comparable to the 110 most did their dyno testing with. I pulled about 4* timing out of my engine, and lost 30 torque, 30 hp instantly, but when adding back timing, I lost my head gaskets, also. Scott Main seemed to think it was a "bit stingy" compared to his before testing, but he won. Joe-JDC
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By Cliff - 5 Years Ago
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Hi, how did you get that much lift with iron heads?
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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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The cylinder bore is notched to clear the 1.960" intake valve, no issue with the exhaust valve. We had witness marks with the 2.020" valves in one pair of heads, and went back to the smaller valve heads, and 5/16" valve stems. Joe-JDC
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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Where does one find the actual rules?
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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KULTULZ (9/28/2019)
Where does one find the actual rules?
This link is off of the Hot Rod website when looking under 'events'.
EMC Early Iron Rules_2019v4
These rules were recently updated and there are some things in there that changed from the official set of rules but we were told to not worry about the new changes regarding camshaft lifts. All engines are required to check out at no more than 0.600" lift at the valves when all the lash is taken up.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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THANX!
I am interested in how you do against the 327. I assume they can use a much improved cyl head. Will watch closely this go-around.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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The rules for the head seem ambiguous to me, "OEM mass produced cast iron passenger car cylinder heads are the only type of heads that can be used. Heads must be originally manufactured for the engine application in which it is being used." Depending on what that means, a mainstream engine may be limited to heads '68 or older, which levels the playing field or it may be able to take advantage of oem development into the 1990s, which potentially puts the Y at a significant disadvantage.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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I saw a score of 2358 for the Y in a video on facebook, which was the highest score at that time, by a pretty good margin but there are still many more to run.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Any updates? Hot Rod isn't doing a good job of it.
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By tomfiii - 5 Years Ago
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These look problematic.
9319-HEADERS: Passenger car chassis style headers required. Header must be manufactured and cataloged to fit a specific passenger car application OEM equipped with the engine type claimed. Manufacturer’s part number must be stamped into the header (better selection for scrubs)
10322-OIL: All engines must be shipped “dry”. Engine will be required to use at least 5 quarts of oil. Participants will only use supplied oil for competition. Propylene Oxide or other oxidizing agents/substances prohibited. Oil is provided at the event. Oil filter must be dry and will be removed for inspection prior to running.
I imagine that cling oil allowed.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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The headers being used are excellent. I don't think there is anything that is significantly better, if any better for a mainstream engine.
From the most recent info, the Y is now in 3rd place.
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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The EMC Y entry is currently sitting in fourth place. There are still a rash of engines left to run and the engine that's scheduled to run early tomorrow morning is expected to go to first place which will knock the Y down to fifth place. I look for that particular Wednesday morning engine to being the high score overall. It's just a wait and see right now to find out where the Y ultimately ends up in the field. More details to come as they become available. I can see now that the roller cammed entries have a definite advantage over our flat tappet entry. Ted.
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By MoonShadow - 5 Years Ago
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Ted et all
I know you are busy but how about a blow by blow of the EMC? Hot Rod isn't posting anything yet. Chuck
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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I guess the one tomorrow is Jon Kaase?
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By MoonShadow - 5 Years Ago
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What engine fit the old iron rule and can use roller cams?
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Any of the mainstream engines will have aftermarket kits available. None of them would have had it originally before 1968. Definitely a big benefit for those engines.
I wonder if a Lincoln is close enough to use roller lifters from another engine without violating the rules.
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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The 1/2" diameter lifter bores on the Y pretty much keep roller camshafts from being used in this family of engines. That's a real disadvantage at this years EMC. Even the Studebaker engine had a roller camshaft in it. The Studebaker engines have a 0.904" lifter bore so the Mopar roller lifters can work there. The rest of the engines are pretty much mainstream with catalogue roller cams available for them.
The Y is still in fourth place but look for it to fall to fifth when the Jon Kaase BBC comes up later this morning. In fact, Jon is looking to be the favorite right for moving into first place.
The 'Eaton Balancing / Joe Craine Porting' 303" Y-Block did not make the same power numbers here at the competition that it was making at the shop. It's only 24 HP and 24 TQ down but that cost us over 150 points in the scoring. The engine was making in excess of 450 HP at the shop but is down to 430 HP here in Ohio.
All for now. Potentially another update in a day or so.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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From the most recent video on Facebook, the Y did drop to 5th. That's ahead of an FE, 1 BB Ford and 2 SB Ch evy, as well as a Pontiac and Studebaker. There is only 1 more score to come if there are only 4 engines today, as there have been the past 2 days, which places the Y in the top 50%. That's a great performance!
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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The 303" Y dropped to sixth place during the final day of running for the 'Early Iron' engine class. Jon Kaase was favored to win overall but his engine was also down on power at this competition and he ultimately ended up in third place. His placing third dropped the 303" Y to fifth place. There were four SBC engines running Wednesday and three of those trailed the Y in points but one of them did manage to squeak by the Y which put the Y in sixth place. As of today (Thursday), the final scores and placement of the engines are pretty much fixed. The winning engine will be torn down today and assuming all is good with that, the remaining engines will not be required to be disassembled or torn down.
The placement of the top six engines are as follows:
390 Ford - Blair Patrick
289 Ford - Geoff and John Mummert
427 BBC - Jon Kaase
396 BBC - HInkel
327 SBC - Adney Brown
292 Ford - Ted Eaton and Joe Craine
While teardown takes place for the Early Iron class today, the LS engines will be running in their own class. The Banquet will be later tonight. Joe and I will be heading back to Texas early Friday morning.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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One thing I like is that, in the videos, the host makes it sound as if the other competitors, at least, take the Y seriously now. Ted, has the perception changed since the very first appearance at Engine Masters? I would not be surprised at all if people wondered who would waste time with a Y at the first competition it was in..
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By Small block - 5 Years Ago
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it is pretty cool to see that there are 3 fords in the top 6 considering the way the rules are written to give scruby an advantage!
the 1968 cut off date plays right into scrubys hand! This keeps the big port engine from ford out of the Competition.
For a 289 to out score the scrubys in this is great!
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (10/3/2019)
One thing I like is that, in the videos, the host makes it sound as if the other competitors, at least, take the Y seriously now. Ted, has the perception changed since the very first appearance at Engine Masters? I would not be surprised at all if people wondered who would waste time with a Y at the first competition it was in..
At the Engine Masters Challenge, the Y is taken seriously. This year, a 289 Ford showed up and really put up some good numbers. That small block Ford at 296 cubic inches was only seven points from the first place finisher (400 cubic inches) which means just a few degrees in water temperature on either engine would have done a flip flop on who the winner would have been.
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By Doug T - 5 Years Ago
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EngineMasters Rule?
9319-HEADERS: Passenger car chassis style headers required. Header must be manufactured and cataloged to fit a specific passenger car application OEM equipped with the engine type claimed. Manufacturer’s part number must be stamped into the header (Editorial comment "better selection for scrubs"?)
Hi Ted,
Is this the only header rule? If so where did the Stude guys come up a set of headers?
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By MoonShadow - 5 Years Ago
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Lot of hot rods ran Stude engines back in the day, Maybe for them.
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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Doug T (10/7/2019)
EngineMasters Rule?
9319-HEADERS: Passenger car chassis style headers required. Header must be manufactured and cataloged to fit a specific passenger car application OEM equipped with the engine type claimed. Manufacturer’s part number must be stamped into the header (Editorial comment "better selection for scrubs"?)
Hi Ted,
Is this the only header rule? If so where did the Stude guys come up a set of headers?
As with any EMC rules, exceptions could be asked for and if reasonable, granted. The Studebaker headers was one of those exceptions. Likewise the intake manifold on the Studebaker engine was special and allowed an exception.
Here’s a picture of the Studebaker engine on the dyno.
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By emtdude56 - 5 Years Ago
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good luck ted looking forward to read about it
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