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By customline3859 - 5 Years Ago
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I read recently about Tim McMaster's pressurized rocker arms for increased oiling to the valvetrain. I also noted some people here mentioned also machining the center groove on their camshaft deeper as well. Is this necessary for a street engine? Is it a must if I'm going to upgrade my rockers? I am going to install an Isky cam(#301333), is there a way I can tell if the depth has already been machined to the appropriate depth? Are there any other oiling updates I should consider while my engine is apart? Any advice and information is greatly appreciated.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Specs for the center groove can be found here, as well as some detail about grooving the block.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/FindPost57214.aspx
There have been and still are many Ys running around with stock rocker arm oiling and it works fine, particularly if it is a fresh rebuild. What kind of upgrade are you doing?
I think in general pressurizing is not a requirement for steel rockers but is preferred for aftermarket aluminum rockers. There are some considerations when pressurizing and that is timing gear and distributor oiling since the overflow tubes do supply some oil to those areas. There will still be oil getting to the timing gears via the front cam and main bearings and oil will still get to the distributor gear via the valley and pushrods.
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By NoShortcuts - 5 Years Ago
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Customline 3859.
- Check the groove in the camshaft bearing surface for depth. It should be .035 deep. This can be corrected on an engine lathe.
- Grooving the engine block cam bearing bore is one way to insure oil flow up to the rocker arm shafts. An alternate method is to use a camshaft bearing that has a groove machined in the outside diameter of the bearing shell to permit 360 degree oil flow to the oil flow machined galley in the cylinder head. The purpose of adding a groove in the O.D. of the bearing or adding a groove in the engine block cam bearing bore is to cure bearing index hole mis-alignment in installation or turning in use. Verne Schumann is the source for a set of Dura-Bond F9A camshaft bearings with the 360 degree groove in the center cam bearing.
Vern's contact information is:
Schumann's Sales & Service, Inc.
P.O. Box 128
Blue Grass, IA 52726
[phone 563-381-246 fax 563-381-2409]
- The idea of pressurizing the rocker arm shafts is advocated by some and avoided by others. The debate for me is influenced by the purpose of the overflow tubes. The driver's side overflow tube is intended to supply oil to the distributor gear where it meshes with the camshaft. The overflow tube on the passenger side is intended to provide lubrication to the timing gear set. Personally, I advocate a compromise of crimping the overflow tubes to restrict oil flow out of the rocker arm shafts for engines I rebuild for street and highway use. For high rpm and racing applications or for engines using aluminum rocker arms, I see benefit to pressurizing the rocker arms and drilling a hole in the block face to tap the oil flow to the front camshaft bearing to provide needed oil to the timing set.
Hope this helps! 
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By customline3859 - 5 Years Ago
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The engine is currently in the process of being reassembled. I just got it back from the machine shop. It's definitely more of a mild street engine. Fenton Tri-Power Intake, Red's Headers. Isky Cam and springs, mildly ported G heads. I don't plan on racing this engine. I just want to make sure I have a reliable cruiser and that I only have to have it all apart once.
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By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
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A rebuilt my 292 last summer. I have a very similar engine to yours. I used the same cam. The oil grove in the new Isky cam was .018" deep. It was slightly wider than stock. I cut the groove to .030" and installed it. This increased the oil flow to the rockers substantially. Previously, my engine had blocked oil tubes and pressurized rocker shafts. I was worried that I would flood the top of the heads with oil, so I purchased new oil tubes and put it back to stock. I have about 2,000 miles on my rebuild with no problems.
Be careful with cutting the cam grove deeper. You don't want too much oil either. If that happens, you can always restrict the flow.
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By customline3859 - 5 Years Ago
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Thank you all for your help. I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. You guys are recommending to cut the center groove of my camshaft to .030 and crimp the oil drain back tubes? Or should I do just one or the other? I guess I could cut the cam first and then see how much oil is retained in the top of the cylinder head and then restrict the oil tube if it isn't enough?
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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You want to make sure that the groove is correct, no matter what else you do.
If it ends up with a lot of oil to the top end, it would be best to add a restriction in the rocker stand that relates to the oil feed of the rocker shaft. Pinching the tube probably would not help because the tube sends oil straight down a pushrod hole. If you pinch that closed and you already have too much oil then you will make matters worse because more of the oil that would otherwise effectively bypass the head is now being forced out of the rockers.
I don't know how "too much" oil is determined, though. Maybe Ted can help with that.
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By customline3859 - 5 Years Ago
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Anyone know the depth that Mummert's cams are machined to?
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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have run 2 engines in the last 4 years with no return tubes,i watched the oiling with valve cover off and lots of oil runs down the push rods,as well as the return the heads 1 at each end bottom front and rear, i used 289/302 vave seals have no execs oil consumption. have not had to adjust valves . it seems a no brainer to me. bothe engines befor rebuild had no oil going to most rockers the reg du to slug and lots of scoring. re the 289/302 seals i trimed the umbrellas 1/8 in .just look at fes they get full presure to rockers. my oil pressure is 20psi at idel with5/30 oil and 50psi 2500 rpm.
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By 57RancheroJim - 5 Years Ago
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2721955meteor (6/25/2019)
have run 2 engines in the last 4 years with no return tubes,i watched the oiling with valve cover off and lots of oil runs down the push rods,as well as the return the heads 1 at each end bottom front and rear, i used 289/302 vave seals have no execs oil consumption. have not had to adjust valves . it seems a no brainer to me. bothe engines befor rebuild had no oil going to most rockers the reg du to slug and lots of scoring. re the 289/302 seals i trimed the umbrellas 1/8 in .just look at fes they get full presure to rockers. my oil pressure is 20psi at idel with5/30 oil and 50psi 2500 rpm.
Just a slightly off topic note about FE's. Many people including myself use restrictors in the oil passage in the head just below the rocker stand, Holley jets do the trick. If you run a high volume pump the heads flood because the drain holes aren't large enough.
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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why the high volume oil pump,not available these days,and if the engine is put together correctly is not needed. I can set vaves with engine running at idea with 20 psi oil pressure with no spillage,and do not need to adjust valves as topend get full lube.
FES are relevant as they use cast rockers on hardened shaft. but its a free world and we can do what we think is best for our use.
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By LordMrFord - 5 Years Ago
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Y needs more oil, not bigger oil pump. At 7000rpm oil pan is empty.
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By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
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A good engine with a high volume oil pump running at 7,000 rpm can easily suck all the oil out of a stock oil pan. I can tell you from experience you don't want this to happen. An engine that is going to see high rpm duty needs a higher capacity oil pan and a modified oiling system. I don't know anyone who runs 7,000 rpm on the street these days. At least I don't.
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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i am a big fan of Y blocks,but if was going to run a engine in the 7000 rpm range it would not be a Y block..rebuilt a 406 in a 1963 galaxy and found the lube system and cross bolted mains ,2 relief valves and with all this changes barly able to hang to gether for a 4hr race,
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Y's have no problem sustaining high rpm when built for that. It's been proven at the dragstrip, bonneville and I'm sure, even road racing.
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By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
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I helped a friend assemble a hot 390 for a friend once that we put into a Bullet Mustang Clone. It had forged pistons, Cobra Jet heads with lots of compression, headers and a Crane solid lifter cam. He wanted to keep the stock oil pan for originality. The engine had a high volume oil pump and stock pickup. I opened up the oil passages in the block and advised him to take it easy and never run the engine on a dyno. He had a problem with the carburetor so he took the car to a "tuner". They put the car on a dyno and ran the piss out of it. During a number of sustained high rpm pulls, they ran the oil pan dry and spun a bearing. Race engines have race car lubrication. Engines out of a family station wagon don't. You live and learn.
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By LordMrFord - 5 Years Ago
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We have eight litres oil in FED and oil pan might be a little smaller than original. Crank is swimming in oil when idling.
I builded my own street engine and measured stock oil pan and got 7 litres without wetting the crank so I drive with about 6 litres.
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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Florida_Phil (6/27/2019)
I helped a friend assemble a hot 390 for a friend once that we put into a Bullet Mustang Clone. It had forged pistons, Cobra Jet heads with lots of compression, headers and a Crane solid lifter cam. He wanted to keep the stock oil pan for originality. The engine had a high volume oil pump and stock pickup. I opened up the oil passages in the block and advised him to take it easy and never run the engine on a dyno. He had a problem with the carburetor so he took the car to a "tuner". They put the car on a dyno and ran the piss out of it. During a number of sustained high rpm pulls, they ran the oil pan dry and spun a bearing. Race engines have race car lubrication. Engines out of a family station wagon don't. You live and learn.
the 406 i spoke about has standard fe oil pump but high pressure relief valve, oilpresur is controlled with a relief valve behind the fly wheel,also no lifter oil feed,as it was a solid lifter design,like i sead earlier it could do a dyne pull no loss of oil in pan. all 390s had full oil galeries to lifters,by useing solid lifters very high loss of volume asthe solid lifters have a large cutaway midle of lift,even if 1 used the 332 solid lifters in 390 big volum loss.
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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a few seconds at a dragstrip does not say the engine can run long at 7000 rpm,tho i am sure with deep pockets one could get to 7000 rpm and have decent life at many events, but cost to build would be out of touch for most of use who just want a good running Y WITH DECENT POWER TO SHAKUP THE GM DUDES
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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If you’ll look at the owners’ manuals for the Y equipped cars and pickups, they will say five quarts plus one extra for the filter. Too many of the dipsticks confuses this as they will show being full at five quarts with the filter change. The HD engines in the trucks require seven quarts with a filter change.
The oil pickup to pan distance has much to do with the point in which an engine starves for oil. I target for no more than ¼”-3/8” pan clearance. Then the bearing clearances are another factor to compensate for as additional clearances simply increases oil flow throughout the engine. For the pickups and truck engines with the rear sump oil pans, a baffle is needed to prevent oil slosh to the front when braking. Not all those pans come from the factory with an installed baffle.
I recently had a Y on the dyno with a truck oil pan and the oil pressure was dropping when the engine was held at a steady state 3500 rpms. It would take about three minutes of higher rpm sustained running for this to happen. This engine had five quarts of oil in it and adding another quart alleviated that problem but does give you an idea of how critical the oil level is. I recommended to the customer for that particular engine that they run at bare minimum seven quarts of oil with a filter change.
I drag stripped a 427 High Riser that was experiencing an oil pressure drop at the end of the quarter mile with seven quarts of oil in a deep sump pan. Adding two more quarts of oil fixed that problem and there was no change in ET’s meaning there was no additional oil was splashing up into the crankshaft as a result of the additional oil. I tried running 9 quarts of oil in my Y-Block powered roadster but never could get the oil pickup position happy where I had oil pressure both on acceleration and stopping. Depending upon the oil pickup location, it was experiencing an oil pressure drop either during acceleration or braking. I went to a dry sump oiling system and now only run five quarts with zero oil pressure issues.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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... want a good running Y WITH DECENT POWER TO SHAKUP THE GM DUDES
Unless she will run/stay with a 69 NOVA 396/375, you better stay @ THE DRIVE-IN sucking on a malted and aggravating the car hops.
That was the street mark in my day.
FORD finally came through with running an extra quart on the 428CJ/SCJ to prevent starvation at the end of the track. The 7-QT oil pan was a must (IMO).
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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GOOD INFO,some time ago re teds info i installed a flapper in my rear sump aswell increased the amount of oil,no longer loose oil pressure on barking,it was more evident since i put disc brakes on the front of my y powered 1949 mere f47. thanks ted.
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By Lord Gaga - 5 Years Ago
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"Unless she will run/stay with a 69 NOVA 396/375, you better stay @ THE DRIVE-IN sucking on a malted and aggravating the car hops."
Well, I suppose.
BUT in 1964 a good friend had a '54 Ford business coupe with a '57 312, T-10 and 4.11 open rear end that would regularly mop up goats, 442s and 383 mopars in street races. The engine was well tuned and stock and the car was gutted except for the front bench seat.
Anybody remember "The Flame" and "Lujans" in Akron?
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By RB - 5 Years Ago
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A modern, built Y Block will handle most of the muscle car era stock stuff no problem. Esp if you choose a lighter car (like the 54) .The problem comes that on the street today everyone has stepped up their game with better parts so cubic inches handicap the Y Block.. A 330 cube Y Block can make 400 horse pretty easy with the parts we have now. I had a ported iron head 292 with cam, headers, and Mummert intake that made 325 hp and was very streetable. My 333 EMC motor with a smallish cam, Mummert heads and intake and a 750 Carb made 465 dyno horse and idled at 750 rpm.. With a loose converter, some gears and a 54 business coupe you could embarrass some scrubies
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By pegleg - 5 Years Ago
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gaga, I' remember Lujans. Raised in north canton
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By Lord Gaga - 5 Years Ago
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Ah-Ha!
On S. Main in Akron? The Flame was right around the corner on Waterloo Rd.
People would race right there on Waterloo or it was a short drive to a flat, straight section of the expressway where sometimes a caravan of spectator cars would come along and pull over to watch a big race. Some guys even trailered the cars that weren't street legal. What a scene. Those were the days!
Frank, I think I know who you are. I'm a friend of Roger D.
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By peglegrice - 5 Years Ago
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This would have been in the late 50's to about 1960.
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By Lord Gaga - 5 Years Ago
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peglegrice (7/2/2019)
This would have been in the late 50's to about 1960.
I don't know about that, what I witnessed happened from 1963 to 1971.
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By PF Arcand - 5 Years Ago
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Try connecting with Mummert Machine (link from here) & ask how much they increase the depth of the oil groove on all the cams they sell. Apparently all later cam cores manufactured, have the groove to shallow, according to John M.
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