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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Re-installed my Engine after having it out all Winter to clean, re-seal, and Paint. I replaced the Timing Gears & Chain using the Ford Shop Manual for Reference. Won't Start. Damper at TDC .Both Valves #1 Closed. Distributor pointing at #1. Got Gas & Spark. I seem to recall Vaguely that the Shop Manual Picture is reversed maybe? Facing the Engine Timing Marks on Gears are on the Right (Oil Filter) Side of Block.That's the Shop Manual.Is it Wrong? I did double check the Gears before I put it back together but now I am wondering if my Memory is correct and the Shop Manual is wrong?
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By darrell - 5 Years Ago
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thats right timing marks to the right.where some get mixed up is they do it with the engine upside down on the engine stand.
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By pintoplumber - 5 Years Ago
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My engine wouldn’t start back in 2003 when it was rebuilt. I had to turn the distributor 180 degrees.
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By FORD DEARBORN - 5 Years Ago
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Greetings to all: You forgot to mention that there were 12 chain pins between the marks, right? Sometimes the view angle can play tricks on the eyes. Just a thought, JEFF..............
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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I did triple check that. If the Damper is at TDC and #1 Cylinder Valves are closed I think that would indicate the Timing Gears were installed correctly. I just had a thought that the Shop Manual Illustration is reversed. Thanks for the Suggestion Jeff. I am going to get back into it Tomorrow. I am overlooking Something. Not sure what.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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Use a timing light while cranking to make sure it is not too retarded to start easily.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (3/14/2019)
Use a timing light while cranking to make sure it is not too retarded to start easily.
Good Suggestion Charlie. Hadn't thought of that. Figure out where the Timing is at. Go from there.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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I am starting to Wonder if I am .360 Degrees off on my TDC. The valves are closed on #1 with some Valve Lash and I am assuming thats TDC on Compression Stroke. Could I be off on TDC Compression? I have done this replace Distributor several Times before and never had a Problem. Am I making wrong Assumption here? Thanks
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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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That would be 180* out, not 360*. Joe-JDC
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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I meant at the Crankshaft. Maybe I am one Revolution out for Compression stroke.
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By kevink1955 - 5 Years Ago
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If I remember correctly the Eckman (sp) book had the timing chain install backwards but the Ford manual is correct. Start over with the distributor, with the #1 plug out (front passenger side) put your finger over the hole and turn the engine till you feel compression then turn a little more till the timing marks are on top dead center. drop the distributor in with the rotor pointed at the #1 plug wire. Should be close and at least cough and try to start/
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks. I knew I read it Somewhere. Good thing the Ford Manual is Correct. Wasn't looking forward to having to go back and fix it. Pretty sure my Distributor is off by 180.
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By Sandbird - 5 Years Ago
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I seem to remember that when you install cams that are set with the marks that no 1 cylinder is at overlap distributor should be set for 6 to fire at this setting.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Didn't touch Cam. Just the Gear and Chain. I think I have installed Distributor out of Time.
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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oldcarmark (3/14/2019)
I did triple check that. If the Damper is at TDC and #1 Cylinder Valves are closed I think that would indicate the Timing Gears were installed correctly. I just had a thought that the Shop Manual Illustration is reversed. Thanks for the Suggestion Jeff. I am going to get back into it Tomorrow. I am overlooking Something. Not sure what.
to the right from the front bumper look at the front wnd sheald, and the no of pins by prev post
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By Joe-JDC - 5 Years Ago
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Left and Right for an automobile or an aircraft are always spoken from the driver's seat or pilot's seat. Whether you are talking about an automobile engine, or an aircraft engine, left and right are so designated from that vantage point, only. Joe-JDC
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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I have been working on this for last 2 Days. Verified Compression Stroke with Finger over Cylinder. TDC on Crank Damper. Both Valves closed. Pulled the Distributor and plug Wires to make sure I didn't mix up a couple of Wires. Distributor pointing to #1. Still won't start. Moving distributor slightly in each Direction makes no difference, Its trying to start but advancing Distributor it backfires through Carb.. So I do have Fuel and Spark. At this Point I am starting to second Guess Myself as to correct Installation of Gears. If the valves are closed on Compression and TDC on Damper does that not indicate Gears are correct? What has to come apart to check timing Gears? Shop Manual says Oil Pan has to come Off. I don't know why the Pan would have to come off?? Engine in Car. Thanks for any Suggestions.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 5 Years Ago
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Mark, it sounds like the cam timing is OK. The manual says to pull the pan because there are 6 bolts through the front pan bolt holes into the timing cover. With a new gasket on the pan, you can probably just take the bolts out and remove the timing cover. If the gasket is ruined, the timing cover gasket set will have a new front piece of pan gasket. I don't really think you'll need to pull the timing cover. One thing you might check is to see if the plug wires are installed in the cap in the correct firing order in a counter clockwise direction. Please don't ask how this old fool knows about that.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks John. I have checked the Plug Wires Twice with them off the Car with Brackets complete. Wires are correct. This Distributor has a Pertronix in it. Possible its the Problem? I have another new Point Distributor which I will try first before I think about checking the Gears. If the things I checked as far as Compression Stroke, TDC, and Valves closed are looking Correct then the Gears should be correct? I specifically verified them to be correct before I closed it Up. Very Strange it won't Start.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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If it is at TDC on compression with damper at 0, valves closed (there is clearance between the rocker and valve) the rotor points to #1, and the plug wires are installed counterclockwise, in the sequence of the firing order, then it should be in the ballpark.
Have you checked initial timing while cranking? That will at least verify that the spark is occuring at the right time or not. Most distributor caps have a 1 next to the #1 terminal but the wires don't care where they are placed as long as it is according to the firing order and timing can be set properly so also make sure that you're not somehow confusing the wrong terminal for #1.
Also make sure you are using the #1 cylinder. I mess that up sometimes because the other vehicle has a che vy.
One thought, if you want to check the gears, maybe a bore scope can be used through the fuel pump hole to verify that it is correct.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Mechanically everything You mentioned is Correct. When I tried using the Timing Light as U suggested it would not Flash consistently so that is why I am now thinking my Pertronix is acting up. I have another Point Distributor I will try and see if that fixes my Problem and gets it running..
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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If the spark is erratic, besides checking the obvious connections and grounds, you can also install a jumper wire from the distributor body to battery negative to rule out any issues with distributor grounding. Just an alligator clip wire will work for this. You can also use the light on other wires to see if the same problem exists.
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By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
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I had a similar problem with one of my cars last year. I chased it for days. It turned out to be a bad coil wire. The wire had a graphite core and one end was burnt. Very erratic. It would pop and try to start, wouldn't stay running. Another time it was dirt in my gas tank. I believe you will find out this is something simple that you are missing.
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By Robin272 - 5 Years Ago
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++ on coil wire. I did not have enough voltage at the coil, the car was completly dead. You can also see it on the color off the spark. Should look like a Blue colored spark 👍
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By FORD DEARBORN - 5 Years Ago
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Mark, I think Sandbird is right. The #1 should be at overlap, not TDC compression stroke. It's been about 5 - 6 years since I did this and just for reference, I indeed found it in my notes that #1 is to be TDC at overlap, not at compression TDC.. That would mean both intake and exhaust rockers would be just holding both valve cracked. I even found a copy of an illustration of this but don't remember it's source.  . I'll try to include it in this post. Maybe I missed somewhere in this thread that you indeed had the #1 in "overlap." If I did, my apologizes, JEFF.................
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Turning the Engine over to TDC with the Valves cracked Open is not Compression Stroke. Finger in the Spark Plug Hole Confirms that. Will a Compression Test tell me if there is a Problem with the Timing Gears?
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By FORD DEARBORN - 5 Years Ago
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That is true, It would be overlap. I read Sandbird's post which reminded me of some old notes and found the illustration. After a closer look, I see it doesn't specify which cylinder is to be in overlap but I just assumed #1. Been too many years since I assembled my engine but will look further for more info.
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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When the gears are in the correct orientation while installing the chain #1 is in overlap and # 6 is in compression. That's where the confusion is coming from.
He has since verified that the pointer is at the tdc mark, valves are closed and the rotor is pointing to #1 and it no longer matters the position things should be in during installation.
A compression test will give poor results if the gears are installed incorrectly. That is something that can be done.
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By FORD DEARBORN - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks Charlie.............I'm usually pretty good at adding confusion.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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FIXED IT!!!! After puzzling over my Problem and reading all the Responses I decided to pull the Distributor and have a look at the Pertronix Unit. I had the Distributor apart while I had the Engine out to replace the Breaker Plate. I have a nice 57 Unit with the Ball Bearing Breaker Plate and I found a NOS One to install. The Pertronix Unit needs to have a .030" Air Gap between the Module and the Magnet on the Center Cam. I guess I only spaced it at about .010".It will appear to be working when I checked the Coil for Spark but with insufficient Air Gap it won't start the Engine. The lesser the Air Gap the lower the Dwell. Re-gapped it and installed. Fired up with a little moving the Distributor a little advanced. As usual its always something Stupid that causes a Problem. Its running and I am relieved about that. Now I can set it up and see if my rear Main Seal and Transmission Leaks are fixed. Thanks for the Input Guys.
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By FORD DEARBORN - 5 Years Ago
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Fantastic news, cool.Good to know insufficient air gap can cause "no fire." I predict there will be no leaks - you went through enough already. If you should have any other issues with the Pertronix setup, please post, JEFF.....................
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Hey Guy's. I figured out my Problem and got it running Today. Read my previous Post earlier Today. It's never the Obvious Things that cause a Problem.
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By Talkwrench - 5 Years Ago
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Ah yes Pertronix give you that little .030 plastic feeler to check.. Good to see its all go Mark .
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By Jack Groat - 5 Years Ago
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This is a little procedure I have gone thru dozens of times every time I rebuild an engine. I rotate the engine until I see the #1 exhaust valve starting to open. I continue until it closes and the intake just starts to open. You are in the "overlap" position. Your timing indicator should be very near TDC. 360 degrees more rotation and you should be at the firing point. The distributor should be pointing at #1 cylinder. You would be surprised how many times this didn't check out properly including a time when the machine shop pressed the cam gear on to the wrong location. (Volkswagon)
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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I checked and rechecked Valves and Damper to make sure it was on Compression. Checked the Coil for Spark which it had. That's what misled Me. It was sparking but not sufficiently enough to fire the Engine. The only other thing I had apart was the Distributor which is why I thought I should have a look at it. Sure enough- found the Problem. Not enough Air Gap between Module and Magnet Ring. I did know it should be .030" when I assembled it. I guess it moved when I tightened the Screws down.
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By MoonShadow - 5 Years Ago
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When I was in a dilemma my grandfather always said :wait till tomorrow and start with a fresh look". Sometimes he would say "sleep on it". I have found that useful many times in my life. When we have an aggravating problem we tend to focus on those things we have just worked on. But if you start fresh and look at the overall problem with a fresh mind you often find the culprit. Unfortunately this doesn't always work but its helped me more than once. Glad you solved the problem.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Hate to admit it but I am still having Problems with my re-installed Motor. I have verified Wires being correct order, TDC using a Piston Stop, Valves both closed at TDC and Timing at 10 BTDC using timing Light. Doesn't start unless the Distributor is advanced to about 20 BTDC. At 10 it backfires through Carb. I have checked Valve Lash also. Is it possible I am off on the Timing Gears even though it does Start? I don't know what else to check.Ii installed a Points Type Distributor thinking maybe there was a Problem with Pertronix. No difference. Very frustrating at this Point.
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By paul2748 - 5 Years Ago
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When using the piston stop, did the pointer point at TDC when splitting the difference in the stops. Maybe your 20 degrees isn't 20 degrees. (damper ring moved?)
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Yes the Damper is accurate. That's the first thing I thought of to check. It ran fine before I changed the Timing Gear Setup. At this Point I have a feeling I may have in fact have assembled it One tooth off by Mistake. At 10 BTDC it should Fire right up. Its not. Backfires through Carb until I advance the Distributor. When it does start its not running the way it should. Has like a miss and wont run at low Idle Speed. Everything I have checked is correct. The only thing I can't verify is the Timing Gears and Chain. I think I may have to take the Timing Cover off and verify. Nothing else to check.
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By Ted - 5 Years Ago
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oldcarmark (4/2/2019)
Yes the Damper is accurate. That's the first thing I thought of to check. It ran fine before I changed the Timing Gear Setup. At this Point I have a feeling I may have in fact have assembled it One tooth off by Mistake. At 10 BTDC it should Fire right up. Its not. Backfires through Carb until I advance the Distributor. When it does start its not running the way it should. Has like a miss and wont run at low Idle Speed. Everything I have checked is correct. The only thing I can't verify is the Timing Gears and Chain. I think I may have to take the Timing Cover off and verify. Nothing else to check.
Assuming the damper is correct and with the damper TDC aligned with the timing pointer, then both #1 and #6 pistons will be at the top of their bores. One of those cylinders will be at compression (valves closed) while the other cylinder will be at valve overlap. If you have valve lash present on both valves for one of the cylinders, then the other cylinder will be on the overlap cycle. For the cylinder on the overlap cycle, then both valves will be slightly depressed with the exhaust valve closing and the intake valve opening. These two rockers should be almost level with each other if the cam timing is in the ball park. If one of them is depressed significantly more than the other, then there’s a chance that the cam timing is off by one tooth or more.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks for the Explanation Ted. After having One more look at it this AM I found the Problem. Vacuum Leak at the rear Ports of the Intake Manifold. Tightened down the Bolts and Voila! No more Backfire and it runs like a Watch. Timing at 8 BTDC and starts right up. Even plugging the PCV back in doesn't affect the Idle. As soon as I can round up some help to put the Hood back on I can go for a Drive and see if my Leak fixes have worked. I tried the suggestion of using the "right Stuff" in place of side Seals so Time will tell if it has worked. Thanks for Every ones Input.
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By oldcarmark - 5 Years Ago
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Final Update. I got my Car out Today for first Drive since last October. Ran good. No serious Issues. Still have some Tinkering to do as far as Timing and Carb. Happy that its Running. I was starting to Wonder if I would ever get it running even a Couple of Weeks ago. Thanks for all Your Input.
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