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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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First time poster here although I've been reading for the last few months.
I'm trying to figure out where I am in restarting a stalled restoration. The car is a '55 Glasstop 272 3pd Overdrive that I've owned for 50 years last summer. I started a frame off in the late '80's got burned out and discouraged and career/life took over in the mid '90's. Part of the the discouragement was that we had a severe cold snap down to below zero, lost power for a few days and next thing I know there was an ice waterfall out the right front portion area of the block. Figured (hoped) that I had popped a freeze plug. And so it sat for 20+ years.
Here is what I've done this past week - pulled the generator and done a visual inspection of the engine - no signs of water leakage on the outside, freeze plugs appear solid, no stains or discoloration of the new engine paint. Drained the oil - it looks like it is brand new - no white sludgy stuff, no water. The engine turns over easily - simply put a ratchet on the crank bolt and turned it over a couple of turns. Bipassed the heater lines and looped it between the water pump and the intake manifold and installed an air pressure test valve that I used in our house. In applying air pressure, it gets up to 4-5 lbs and starts gurgling inside the block. It will get up to 8-9 lbs but won't hold any pressure. I figured that if the water jackets were intact, I should be able to apply air and have it hold. Is there something I don't know about?
Haven't pulled plugs or done a compression check yet.
Thinking that my next step is to either tear off the top end or try to start it up.
Comments and suggestions - but please, don't beat me up - I've been doing that to myself already - for a long time
Thanks for the input
Mike
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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Welcome Mike, I doubt if anyone will chide you for your oversights, we have all been there. That being said did you only have water in you engine no antifreeze ? Is it possible the water you mentioned was from another source condensation posssibly. Also is it possible you are loosing air pressure through the radiator cap. the way I read it you still have the upper and lower radiator hoses hooked up or is that where you are putting the air in. I am sure you will get a lot of other reply’s keep us updated as to your progress.
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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IIRC it was straight up water left over from starting it up before the body went back on the frame. Then again - my hands smelled a bit like old antifreeze after I was poking around under there this afternoon. I opened the pet cocks this afternoon and got only a few drops of water. I probably drained the block after I test ran it but frankly, I don't remember.
I thought about rotten hoses and bad radiator cap but the gurgling seems to be coming from around the 1-2-3 cylinder area but deep - which matches what I remember about where the ice flow originated. Also, I would expect more of a hissing if one of the hoses or cap were leaking - plus I'd feel or smell it. Ditto the hissing if it was a crack. This is gurgling kind of like blowing bubbles underwater. My compressor is set at 80psi and I build only 8-9psi on the gauge. It's pretty quite up to 5 or 6 psi then it's like the dam broke and air escapes.
The air is escaping somewhere - blown gaskets maybe? Hence thinking that pulling the top end off may show something. I could pull off the radiator hoses and plug up the fittings just to eliminate the radiator out of the equation.
Thanks for the reply
Mike
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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BTW - is that a B&W '55? That's what mine is..........
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By Florida_Phil - 5 Years Ago
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If you need a block, I have a standard bore 272 block you can have for free. It's in Central Florida.
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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I guess you should pull all the plugs and put the air into the cooling system and listen at each opening then at least you will know for sure. Then I guess pull the head on that side and see if the block is cracked or if the head gasket some how has been compromised. It’s real nice that you have been offered a new block I hope you do not need it. Yes I also have a 1955 “Glasstop” I have had it for 40. Years and I have made some lulu of mistakes along the way with my car.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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...severe cold snap down to below zero, lost power for a few days and next thing I know there was an ice waterfall out the right front portion area of the block. Figured (hoped) that I had popped a freeze plug. And so it sat for 20+ years.
Just a reminder, a core plug is not meant/designed as a freeze and/or expansion plug. It is merely a plug to close the opening(s) of a core after removing casting sand. If one is very lucky, the plug may allow pressure release for freezing/expanding coolant. If the freezing takes place within the core, it will most likely damage something.
Was the engine fresh or used?
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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You might also try filling the Cooling system and sticking the air hose in each spark pug hole see if the water bubbles out the radiator cap opening. 
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By charliemccraney - 5 Years Ago
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If water frozen like a waterfall was coming out of the engine, then it seems like it should be apparent if it is a cracked component.
It might be easiest to fill the cooling system and do a pressure check. With it full, if there are any leaky areas, water will come out under pressure.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 5 Years Ago
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Hi, first you are among friends who have all had awkward moments in their past.
Try to ID your problems and what you want to do.
How important is saving the block? Visual? DO NOT do something
like dis-mantle your engine that will not allow other tests to be made like taking off the heads BEFORE trying
a compression check. If the starting system and battery are available can you check for oil pressure? Before
using the starter? Are the rocker arms moving?
The advice you get will largely depend on HOW WELL you explain thing. Pete
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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Engine was fresh - crank turned, bored, heads done with exhaust seats, etc, etc. Cam was a little healthier than stock. Nothing exotic. The machine shop was in Seattle. IIRC we had to sleeve one cylinder. I'll have to dig around to see it I still have the paper work.
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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Is the water you seen and the gurgling you hear on the same side as the sleeved piston. As has been said you can fill the system and do a pressure check or maybe pull the plug on that sleeved cylinder and push some air into it .
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks for the insight. The responses I'm getting are leading me in the right direction to figure out where I'm at. Never done this kind of investigative mechanics before and don't know what to expect so I'm being very careful.
I got some PVC end caps today that should slip inside the radiator hoses to isolate the block. I'll first pull the thermostat then apply air and see if anything different happens. I'll pull the plugs to see if there is any evidence of water and listen to each cylinder while applying air. I've drained the oil - so if anything gets into the bottom end, water should flow right out the drain hole.
When I do a compression check by spinning the engine with the starter, I assume I should try to get some oil pressure before starting. It's been dry for almost 30 years.
Will gaskets degrade over time when not being used? You mentioned a head gasket getting compressed which I assume will show up on a compression check.
I'll let you know what I find out tomorrow.
Thanks for all the input.
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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The head gasket is designed to be somewhat compressed I doubt if you will have any issues unless it has failed between the cooling jacket and the cylinder . If you have not pulled the valve covers off, I would and just pour some break in type oil or zinc additive down the push rod holes on to the cam to prevent any wear while you spin the engine to do the compression test . The engine has been sitting a long time and maybe overkill but its only a few minutes work to protect the cam . Its is possible that some gaskets may be dry do to the age but I would not worry about them now , you need to find the source of the water as was said earlier the plugs on the engine that most people refer to as freeze out plugs are there for casting purposes some time you may get lucky and one pops but that was not its designed to do. If you drained the oil you need to put it back if you want to build oil pressure. Do the compression test with the throttle plate held open to get the best results If you have a low reading in two adjoining cylinders than most likely your head gasket has failed at that point . I think once you start looking around the problem will jump right out good luck keep us apprised
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By miker - 5 Years Ago
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“The machine shop was in Seattle. IIRC we had to sleeve one cylinder. I'll have to dig around to see it I still have the paper work.”
If you’re still around Seattle, I’ve got a couple probably good blocks in storage if it doesn’t come out well.
They’re down in Tukwila.
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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i would put the coolant back in,with some antifreeze,re connect the rad put the oil back,remove plugs and spin untill some oil pressure. plugs back in start the engine,if the block is cracked internal the oil will turn milky. as it warms up external cracks if they exist will leak. be sure to put the pressure cap on fully ,you want pressure in cooling. if water was left in the most vulernable aria is around the motor mount arias. don't worry about the sleve that repair if was inst buy a engine shop it is the last place i would worrey about.. air is misleading at this stage.. if water turns milky you have a internal leak re freezing. just pull the engine .how cold has it bin, a major freeze with small amounts of water left in will be hard to find if internal. you need a little luck ,but your issue is not rare hear I'm bc.
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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When I do a compression check by spinning the engine with the starter, I assume I should try to get some oil pressure before starting. It's been dry for almost 30 years.]
The hardest on an engine is a cold start, especially if it has not been turned for thirty years. You might want to consider using SEAFOAM in the cylinders to free the rings (let set for a few days with plugs installed and expel when turning the engine over with plugs removed). Also prime the oiling system, turn the engine over by hand a few times to distribute oil while priming. Reinstall plugs and then attempt fire. You will get a more precise compression reading on a warm engine.
Also, an internal coolant leak may occur on a cold engine, warm engine or combination.
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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Outstanding idea by Kultulz remove all the plugs and put some lube into the cylinder Seafoam or Marvel oil put a good amount it to cover the top of the piston spraying it in give fairl good coverage let it sit a least overnight with the plugs in to get down well. REMOVE the plugs spin the engine to get the fluid out before attempting to start the car it should get a lil messy make sure as much liquid is out as possible just curious are you still running with 6 volts or did you convert to 12volts good luck again
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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55 GLASS TOP (2/7/2019)
Outstanding idea by Kultulz remove all the plugs and put some lube into the cylinder Seafoam or Marvel oil put a good amount it to cover the top of the piston spraying it in give fairl good coverage let it sit a least overnight with the plugs in to get down well. REMOVE the plugs spin the engine to get the fluid out before attempting to start the car it should get a lil messy make sure as much liquid is out as possible just curious are you still running with 6 volts or did you convert to 12volts good luck again
already stated engine turns freely. mix some engine oil with 3parts gas 1 part oil, feed it into carb as trying to start,this ensures some lube to valves and rings instantly. have used this on several engines that sat for long period .bigest issue is sticking faves. fact we are looking for cracked block getting the engine to run is important to determine if in fact there is a crack. air pressure not the best way, get it running and up to temp is 1st step
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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miker (2/6/2019)
“The machine shop was in Seattle. IIRC we had to sleeve one cylinder. I'll have to dig around to see it I still have the paper work.” If you’re still around Seattle, I’ve got a couple probably good blocks in storage if it doesn’t come out well. They’re down in Tukwila.
We moved from Seattle in 2006 and are now about 2 hours north of Spokane almost to the Canadian border. The good news is that I now have a wonderful, heated shop. The bad news is that I'm 26 miles for the nearest parts store.
Thanks for your offer of a potential block if/when it gets down to that. I'll keep it in mind.
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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Thanks to everyone for the insight and suggestions. Never had the occasion to use Marvel and hadn't even heard of Seafoam. As stated, the purpose of Marvel is to free up the rings - can I assume that the rings may stick to the pistons in a freely turning engine? Just for my knowledge.
Great insight that the any damage will more readily show up when heated. Skip a few steps that might not tell us much and get to the meat of the problem. What is a good break in oil? Valvoline 10/30? Zinc additives were also mentioned. When I fill with oil, I'll pour some over both rocker arms. Also rotate the assembly with the valve covers off to check that none of the valves are stuck.
Probably should throw on a new filter while I'm at it. Old canister type - Wix? Doesn't Wix make NAPA filters? Are they the same?
The car is still 6 volt. The good news is that I can grab the battery out of the tractor for the short term.
Mike
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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2721955meteor (2/6/2019)
i would put the coolant back in,with some antifreeze,re connect the rad put the oil back,remove plugs and spin untill some oil pressure. plugs back in start the engine,if the block is cracked internal the oil will turn milky. as it warms up external cracks if they exist will leak. be sure to put the pressure cap on fully ,you want pressure in cooling. if water was left in the most vulernable aria is around the motor mount arias. don't worry about the sleve that repair if was inst buy a engine shop it is the last place i would worrey about.. air is misleading at this stage.. if water turns milky you have a internal leak re freezing. just pull the engine .how cold has it bin, a major freeze with small amounts of water left in will be hard to find if internal. you need a little luck ,but your issue is not rare hear I'm bc.
The freeze was when we were in Seattle - it got down below 0 for several days and the power was out. The more I think about it, I wonder if I had drained the block via the petcocks prior to all this because the area that I remember seeing the ice flow was behind the generator on the right side. But like I said, there is no staining or any other visual indication of water coming out of the block. You would think you'd see some staining.
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By weasel - 5 Years Ago
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How cold did it get, ie temperature?
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By KULTULZ - 5 Years Ago
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2721955meteror Posted
...already stated engine turns freely
THANX for that. I did flunk out of remedial reading class in the third grade. Your help is appreciated.
When an engine sits dry for thirty years, you take (should) certain precautions to hopefully save what you have.
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By paul2748 - 5 Years Ago
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If the engine has never been started, I would suggest Valvoline 10/40 with the GM EOS supplement. Otherwise, just the oil. Pull the distributor and manually (counterclockwise) turn the oil pump to get oil through the engine and the filter
The NAPA filters are Wix, so they are good.
lazylnm (2/7/2019)
Thanks to everyone for the insight and suggestions. Never had the occasion to use Marvel and hadn't even heard of Seafoam. As stated, the purpose of Marvel is to free up the rings - can I assume that the rings may stick to the pistons in a freely turning engine? Just for my knowledge. Great insight that the any damage will more readily show up when heated. Skip a few steps that might not tell us much and get to the meat of the problem. What is a good break in oil? Valvoline 10/30? Zinc additives were also mentioned. When I fill with oil, I'll pour some over both rocker arms. Also rotate the assembly with the valve covers off to check that none of the valves are stuck. Probably should throw on a new filter while I'm at it. Old canister type - Wix? Doesn't Wix make NAPA filters? Are they the same? The car is still 6 volt. The good news is that I can grab the battery out of the tractor for the short term. Mike
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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IIRC it was well below 0 for 2 or 3 days. And the power was out for two nights. I was trying to keep the house from freezing up. Not used to that kind or weather there. They are supposed to get 6-8 inches of snow tonight. Which will shut the city down completely.
I took off the valve covers this afternoon - everything looked good. The push rod cups and the downhill edge of the valve springs still a bit of oil clinging. The rockers had an oil sheen. All the valves go up and down when rotated by hand. Pulled the plugs - they were all uniformly light black/dark grey with no moisture of any kind. No white powdery stuff. Stuck my pinkie in each hole as far as it would go - came out dry each time. I did find some coolant in the bottom radiator hose and one of the heater hoses so at some point antifreeze was put in. Nice and bright green. Opened up both block pet cocks and got just a dribble of liquid out.
Next step - Marvel oil into the cylinders, new oil and antifreeze and try to start it up. Like someone said - get it warm and any problems will become apparent. I assume I'm looking for coolant where it shouldn't be - out the side of the block, in the oil or in the cylinders - either in the form of vapor out the tailpipes or actual coolant.
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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Paul2748 - the engine was started before the frame and body were reunited. Ran for probably 2-3 hours of several different occasions. Can't remember if I've started it after the body was dropped onto the frame.
I'm really surprised at how clean the oil is that I drained and what I saw on the rocker assemblies. Looked like it was straight from the bottle. I remember checking the oil in a Honda we had for sale in Seattle and how white and slimy the oil was just from condensation after sitting for a couple of weeks.
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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Marvel oil has been around for ever its not just for freeing up rings its a light oil with some detergent properties. its a good all round lubricate . Also starting the engine is most likely the way to find out if some thing is damaged , but I like to do some preliminary test so I do not do any internal damage . Lest say you fill the cooling system and the crack is in the cylinder wall coolant leaks in and when you try to start the car you break a rod or other damage . At this point all you internal parts are good you could swap them into a good block if needed. It may be overkill and I may be a worry wart but things happen quickly and its best to know what to expect I would at least do the compression test before starting .
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By 2721955meteor - 5 Years Ago
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my god55 GLASS TOP (2/7/2019)
Marvel oil has been around for ever its not just for freeing up rings its a light oil with some detergent properties. its a good all round lubricate . Also starting the engine is most likely the way to find out if some thing is damaged , but I like to do some preliminary test so I do not do any internal damage . Lest say you fill the cooling system and the crack is in the cylinder wall coolant leaks in and when you try to start the car you break a rod or other damage . At this point all you internal parts are good you could swap them into a good block if needed. It may be overkill and I may be a worry wart but things happen quickly and its best to know what to expect I would at least do the compression test before starting . my god get real,if a cylinder is cracked,i dought the engine would turn over with a wrench on the damper bolt, the are mor vulnerable arias for plugs poping out,if engine full of water would be the head 1 then the 4 in the block. if only a bit of water the casting near the moter mount aria
just stop the chatter and start the engine don't reve it up just 800rpm and watch for water
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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Ok ...
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By lazylnm - 5 Years Ago
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I put pressure to the system today after pulling the plugs. Nothing new.
Also took the valve covers off - everything looked great - see my previous post.
I dug out the compression test gauge today and tested it.
Tomorrow I am planning to isolate the block by capping off the radiator hoses and filling the block with water and pressurizing it again. I'll turn it over by hand a few revolutions and see if there is any water around the spark plug holes or anywhere else. Then I'll do the compression test.
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By 55 GLASS TOP - 5 Years Ago
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I think that’s all perfect, when you turn the key to strart you won’t have any surprises no need to rush thank you for the update
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