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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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I had a condenser fail this year and have used my spare. From what I hear they are mostly junk now.
As I'm going to be heading over to the USA next month I was wondering if there are any brands that produce a quality condenser these days.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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None that I'm aware of, another reason I went to Pertronix..
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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NAPA or Echlin is supposed to be good, for modern manufacture, and they are also still available yet from Ford. That's what you want.
The NOS available, though depending on how old they are, dry out or whatever the fault is. I did a little experimenting, testing some old school Standard and Motorcraft and Echlin pulls I have in my junkbox. While they test spot on for capacitance value, and show absolutely no leakage at 500 volts DC, they don't "hold a charge" the way a fresh capacitor will. A modern capacitor will hold a healthy charge for at least a day or two. Ask me how I know. I'm not sure if this is an important metric to ignition service or not but I suspect it might be. Pranksters used this characteristic to good effect at one time. Not me, no. Uh-uh.
Some folks ask why a modern capacitor (condenser) can't be used here, and that's a good question. If you want to go this route there are a couple things to look at. The typical ignition condenser had a capacitance rating of 0.20µF to 0.25µF (MFD) or microfarads, rated for around 400 volts or so. The standard "cut" available today is 0.22µF - right in there, so no problems there. Where people might run into problems though is the proper capacitance and voltage rating isn't the whole story.
Ignition service is a high pulse current application (which is why the counterfeit parts can't hang in the first place.) Avoid the compact metalized spray film type and select a capacitor like the CDE "Orange Drop" 715P rated at 400 volts or better. They are a little chunky in size but seem to work absolutely fine in tests and fit inside the distributor. The characteristic that is important here is known as dV/dT rating. Keep the leads short as possible, and maybe pot the unit with something to prevent vibration from work hardening the leads and breakage under vibration. Maybe this is more than you asked, but I find this an interesting subject.
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By NoShortcuts - 7 Years Ago
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Tedster. Thanks for making time to share all the info. about capacitors. This is another reminder for me that all components are not created equal! 
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By DANIEL TINDER - 7 Years Ago
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Tedster (8/29/2018)
NAPA or Echlin is supposed to be good, for modern manufacture, and they are also still available yet from Ford. That's what you want. The NOS available, though depending on how old they are, dry out or whatever the fault is. I did a little experimenting, testing some old school Standard and Motorcraft and Echlin pulls I have in my junkbox. While they test spot on for capacitance value, and show absolutely no leakage at 500 volts DC, they don't "hold a charge" the way a fresh capacitor will. A modern capacitor will hold a healthy charge for at least a day or two. Ask me how I know. I'm not sure if this is an important metric to ignition service or not but I suspect it might be. Pranksters used this characteristic to good effect at one time. Not me, no. Uh-uh. Some folks ask why a modern capacitor (condenser) can't be used here, and that's a good question. If you want to go this route there are a couple things to look at. The typical ignition condenser had a capacitance rating of 0.20µF to 0.25µF (MFD) or microfarads, rated for around 400 volts or so. The standard "cut" available today is 0.22µF - right in there, so no problems there. Where people might run into problems though is the proper capacitance and voltage rating isn't the whole story. Ignition service is a high pulse current application (which is why the counterfeit parts can't hang in the first place.) Avoid the compact metalized spray film type and select a capacitor like the CDE "Orange Drop" 715P rated at 400 volts or better. They are a little chunky in size but seem to work absolutely fine in tests and fit inside the distributor. The characteristic that is important here is known as dV/dT rating. Keep the leads short as possible, and maybe pot the unit with something to prevent vibration from work hardening the leads and breakage under vibration. Maybe this is more than you asked, but I find this an interesting subject.
While I must admit the fine detail of electronic technology is generally ‘over my head’ (it never occurred to me that, for instance, I might install one of the 0.22 OrangeDrop caps I have on hand for guitar tone controls in the distributor), I am nonetheless puzzled why it might be important for an auto condenser to hold a charge for any longer than it takes for the next spark plug to fire? Years ago I bought a grab-bag of NOS condensers on eBay, and (checking with a multimeter) selected the one with the closest value to instal. It has worked perfectly for over ten yrs./40K miles.
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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DANIEL TINDER (8/29/2018)
[quote] I am nonetheless puzzled why it might be important for an auto condenser to hold a charge for any longer than it takes for the next spark plug to fire?
No idea on that, it's just something I observed, that some of these NOS capacitors on hand have lost this characteristic (that they would have had when new) although, they test OK under high voltage for leakage. The voltage is bleeding off somehow, in seconds, versus hours or days compared with a new capacitor. This is known as the "insulation test".
It might be they will "work" though would prove defective when looking at the ignition pattern waveforms on a scope. A multimeter works OK for measuring capacitance value, but it can't test for leakage at the working voltage rating
The condenser plays an important role in the quality of the spark at the plugs as well as preventing the contact points from pitting or burning.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 7 Years Ago
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Interesting. I can only assume the ‘quality of the spark’ is irrelevant if the plugs never misfire under load (?). (either the mixture explodes on cue, or it doesn’t). Same with the contact points. If they continue to function perfectly past the life of most other ignition components, the degree of pitting or burning would also seem irrelevant.
P.S. This brings up another controversial issue, namely whether positive ground system contact points pit & burn at a slower rate than negative ground examples. Also reduced advancement of body ground connection corrosion in pos. grd. systems is debated (?). Seems a largely unexplored subject unfortunately relegated to ancient history.
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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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Sounds like it's NAPA Echlin or from Ford. I don't think I will go down the path of installing an electronics type capacitor.
Lots of interesting information, though some beyond my understanding.
It brings back memories of when I was doing a pre-apprenticeship in auto electric. We would charge up condensers and throw them to the mechanics to catch.
Thanks for the tips on brands to buy.
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By Florida_Phil - 7 Years Ago
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I bought a rebuilt YBlock distributor last year for my TBird. The condenser failed within a few days leaving me stranded. I went to my local O'Reilly's and asked them to sell me quality US made points and condenser. They've been in my car ever since. It's a good thing the Chinese don't make condoms (do they?) 
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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You get one guess.
The counterfeit condensers get lots of bad press with good reason, though keep in mind the points included with them these days aren't much better. They should be avoided.
The genuine service or NOS replacements are still plentiful and inexpensive, better made with better materials. The thing about ignition parts, while they may work, that doesn't necessarily mean they are working anywhere close to where they should be.
While you're picking up condensers suggest you find some NOS point sets as well. Still have the old set I ran for quite a while years ago. I wasn't aware then, the distributor cam needs a bit of high temp cam lubricant, so the rubbing block on this set is worn down to a nub. The better made sets use phenolic, not plastic. The el-cheapos will wear down right away cam lubricant or not.
Assembled a complete spare distributor to carry on road trips, just in case the Pertronix were to fail. The idea is to drop a spare distributor in and be on our way with minimum hassle. This is why I lean toward including a modern capacitor. The NOS automotive condensers test OK now but may not work when needed.
Part of setting up the spare is learning (or re-learning) the rituals now, in my garage, instead of on the side of the road.
And I gotta say it's pretty amazing all the contortions people use to have to go through. For one thing, if they sit a while esp. in high humidity, points will get a layer of crud between them that will absolutely kill any continuity. You think "hey I cleaned 'em.", Nope.
The distributor design is an amazing piece of engineering for the time though. Everything ignition related today is handled by sensors, software and computers, they had to make do with the technology they had - springs, weights, & gears, and overall do a great job when setup right.
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By Florida_Phil - 7 Years Ago
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Distributors are amazing considering how old they are. I remember years ago when a local speed shop offered to curve your distributor for $10. The guy doing the work said he could give anyone a 10th of second ET decrease for $10. $10s a tenth is what he said. My smart ass buddy walked up and said he would take $100s worth. We thought it was funny, the distributor guy didn't. 
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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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Where do you find NOS points?
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By 55charliebird - 7 Years Ago
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STANDARD OR ECHLIN. Make sure the box says "Made in USA".
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By DANIEL TINDER - 7 Years Ago
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Likely, few are aware that there is also a wide variation in spring tension specs., even with NOS USA points. Too much, and the rubbing block wears down quickly, changing the timing/gap. Too little, and the contacts float at high rpms. Had to test quite a few sets to find good ones.
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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Right, the spring is adjustable. That's why there are actually two 5/16 nuts, where the coil & condenser wire attach. The innermost nut is loosened and spring can be moved fore and aft as required, then re-tightened to achieve the correct spring tension. On Fords the specification for V8 is 17 to 22 ounces, checked with a spring scale.
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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ian57tbird (8/30/2018)
Where do you find NOS points?
That famous auction site usually has a good supply up for bid or BIN. Figure about $10 per, delivered to your door, is about par for the course. I see a good supply available under the old part number as well. Used from 1945 to 1974, so even today they are not rare or expensive. No reason whatsoever to use crappy ignition parts!
"Older part#: FAA-12171-A (replaced 7RA-12171) .. Point Set-Heavy Duty / 1948/52 337 / 1948/53 239 / 1948/64 I-6's ... In 1969, Ford replaced FAA-12171-A with C9AZ-12171-B (Motorcraft DP-3) which has many more applications too numerous to list."
Also consider the rotor, the earlier black rotors were pre-emission era. The later blue ones will work, but have imo an excessive gap, and they don't tend to last quite as long.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 7 Years Ago
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Tedster (8/30/2018)
Right, the spring is adjustable. That's why there are actually two 5/16 nuts, where the coil & condenser wire attach. The innermost nut is loosened and spring can be moved fore and aft as required, then re-tightened to achieve the correct spring tension. On Fords the specification for V8 is 17 to 22 ounces, checked with a spring scale.
Don’t know about the ‘57+/centrifical parts, but with Loadomatic points, often no amount of adjustment will bring the spring tension into the spec. range.
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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Interesting. I've read drag racers had all kinds of tricks and modifications (doubling up the spring say,) to prevent point bounce at very high RPM. The rubbing block lasted few miles this way, but it did work.
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By 82warren - 7 Years Ago
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You can get decent parts, condensers included at your NAPA store, there are others also but ... few if any condensers are made in America anymore but that could change .... we hope.
I also had a new one fail on a trip to New York from Minnesota in our '54 Ford all original car. I like you put my old spare in at a truck stop, it's still there and working well, might be an old original from those years....
Always carry a spare. Another good idea is to replace the holding screw with an Allen head screw, # 8 is what most are, then you can control the screw far easier while replacing the condenser, far less chance of dropping or losing. I made an Allen wrench attached to a screwdriver handle, this works super well.
warren
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By DANIEL TINDER - 7 Years Ago
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My dual points kit requires the condenser be installed on the outside of the distributor (mounted on the vacuum diaphragm) so replacement couldn’t be simpler. Just curious though, how/if that might extend it’s life (assuming temp. inside the distributor is higher, and the original style condenser’s electrolytic construction is susceptible to overheating damage)? I’m guessing the dist. cap must hold in the heat conducted up through the aluminum distributor body, which is in direct contact with the engine block. Although, if that WAS the case, likely the manufacturers would have designed the original ignition system differently, unless exposure to oil/dirt/oxygen/etc. was thought to be worse (?).
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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Ignition condensers are made with foil/paper construction as far as I know. Electrolytic capacitors are a bit different, containing a liquid paste. They are used where a high capacitance and high voltage in a small space is required. They also have a polarity.
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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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It's father's day here today. I hadn't run the car for a couple of months through our winter. There was a car show on that I was going to take my car to. I started it this morning and it ran for about 10 or 20 seconds then stared running rough finally stalling. It had an extremely weak spark. Swapped coil first, but still wouldn't run. put the old condenser in which failed on me when it got hot previously. The car fired up straight away and ran perfectly.
That piece of crap condenser was not in for six months and would not have even done 500 miles. I got it from a Tbird parts supplier as part of a tune up kit. I did think it looked a bit cheap and junky when I first put it in. I looked at the points that came with it and it looks like a plastic rubbing block as well.
That took the shine of the day for me. Was really looking forward to getting out with the car.
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By Tedster - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah, for whatever reason it is apparently pretty tough to make a high voltage ignition condenser in a small package, at least to meet a certain price point. What is really aggravating, these parts have been widely known to be defective for several years now, yet the "usual suspects" (whether the local parts house or even the specialty suppliers) still keep these POS critical ignition parts in their inventory.
CDE 715P or 716P 0.22 @400 or 600 volts should last pretty much forever near as I can tell. Coupled with quality NOS contact points and a serviceable distributor a tune-up job should remain satisfactory for a long time. The NOS condensers are far better than the el-cheapos but are starting to show their age. If there are U.S.A. made condensers of recent manufacture these would probably be OK, but I would not run any points ignition with first testing them at their rated voltage, leakage, series resistance, and insulation test, and at normal operating temperature. A "capacitor checker" in a DVM or DMM cannot do this.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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Yes, we are between a rock and a hard space for condensers. Off shore crap bad right out of the box, little NOS and sometimes those aren't great due to shelf life. I've converted to Pertronix on two of my three engines..
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By oldcarmark - 7 Years Ago
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Pertronix 2 with matching Coil in 3 Cars. Eliminates the Ballast Resistor. One less Item to fail. 10 Years. Never had a problem.
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