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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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I'm trying to troubleshoot a battery drain issue with my 55, You leave the car a couple weeks with the battery plugged in the battery will drain, sometimes just one week will drain it, and according to the GEN light slowly getting brighter and brighter while driving at night the generator evidently isn't charging enough to keep up with the headlights I guess.
Anyway I'm trying to get a base reading with my multimeter and I looked on youtube to find out how to take the readings. My initial readings with the car running was at about 6.10v with the motor idling, and then when I turned the headlights and heater fan on it'd go down to 5.79v. I went for a drive and came back and the reading was about the same but here's the thing, I went to start it a few minutes later in my driveway and the battery is dead. Question is, if the battery is dead why is it still reading 6.7 volts on the meter? OR am I just completely misusing the meter?
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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I don't really have an answer, but the charging voltage should be up around 7.2 volts above idle. I don't know the exact specs Ford used, but the old rule of thumb was 2.4 volts per cell, 7.2 on 6v and 14.4 on 12v. With a generator you'll need 1500-2000 rpm maybe to see that. Secondly, the voltage at the battery at speed and under load should remain at 7.2. So turning on the lights and heater and running the motor up to say 1500, you should still see the 7.2volts. If the gen won't maintain that voltage under load, you're slowly running the battery dead.
If you don't get that it could be a number of things. Voltage regulator adjustment, generator in need of maintainence (brushes first) or connections at the gen/regulator/battery. It takes very little corrosion to push a 6 volt system down, could even be hidden corrosion on a fork or spade connection crimp.
This is one of the reasons I believe in new wiring in almost any vehicle at 50+ years of age. Insulation breaks down, switches fail, grounds fail due to corrosion between body panels, etc. I've rewired several of my friends cars after the meltdown. Fortunately they got lucky and just burned the wiring not the whole car.
FWIW, just the modern radios in my old cars, with a station memory wire, will run the car down in two weeks or so. I've got battery shut offs on everything. With a completely disconnected batttery, they will start fine 6 months later.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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A bad battery can show a good voltage when there is no load but as soon as a load is applied, the voltage drops and nothing happens. If the battery is bad enough, even a low load like simply turning the ignition or an interior light on is enough.
Set the meter up so you can see it while attempting to start the engine, or have a friend try to start it, and see how much the voltage drops.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Thx for the input guys, I've got some stuff to look at.
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By Gene Purser - 7 Years Ago
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If the battery still shows 6V when you try to start the car, check your connections at the battery and the grounds to be sure they are tight and corrosion free. There is also a chance that the solenoid circuit is open if it doesn't click when you try to start it.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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I went ahead and bought a new battery.
One thing that came to mind, I thought about changing the battery cables too, the negative had gotten a little melted on one side from laying against the exhaust manifold and the positive (-) is the original and the casing is kinda cracked up. But one thing came to mind when I was at the store looking at all the gauges of cable. I think when I bought the old negative cable way back when I didn't pay attention to the gauge I got. The wire says it's 1 gauge. A website says these fords should have gauge 00 or gauge 0000.
Would having the wrong gauge negative cable cause any of these draining symptoms?
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By Dobie - 7 Years Ago
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Nope, but when they get old they cause other problems like hard starting. 6v systems operate at twice the amperage as 12v systems so they need the biggest cables you can stuff in there. You have a parasitic draw somewhere. You can find it by disconnecting electrical devices one at a time. When the draw stops you've found the culprit.
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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Dobie's right, the main problem with undersized cables is voltage drop under load. Mainly starting load, but as you add lights, heater etc. you can have that problem in a running condition also. On 6 volts it doesn't take much to start to show up on the ignition side while running.
The restoration guys sell the right cables, a tractor store might have them that will work, or you can make your own with welding cable of the right size. Battery to starter solenoid, solenoid to starter on the hot (negative on a 55 if I remember). Ground side to engine or frame, and another between the engine and frame. It's been so long since I converted my 55 bird I don't remember.
A good multimeter set on the amperage scale will show the parasitic draw. Isolating it is another matter, disconnecting one thing at a time, and maybe finding more than one. If it's minimal, just use a battery shut off switch when parking more than a couple days. My buddy just called tonight wondering why his battery was dead. The car's been parked 3 weeks and the modern radio "memory" lead killed it. He forgot to shut it off.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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miker (8/10/2017)
Dobie's right, the main problem with undersized cables is voltage drop under load. Mainly starting load, but as you add lights, heater etc. you can have that problem in a running condition also. On 6 volts it doesn't take much to start to show up on the ignition side while running.
Well maybe that explains why the GEN light would slowly illuminate over the course of an hour or so when driving at night with the headlights on eh? I posted a topic about this awhile back and no one knew the answer.
So when it comes to gauges, the lower the number the bigger the wire? Kinda like how 6volt wiring is bigger then 12v wiring?
I did the parasitic leech test on my 55 the other day, where you disconnect the ground wire and run two leads one on the ground cable and the other on the ground terminal. I believe if I was reading it right it displayed like .4 miliamps which is hardly anything right? Not sure what it could have been though these old cars should have no draw at all when off if the doors are closed and the clock isnt hooked up.
Are those battery cutoffs hard to hook up? Is it a switch between the positive battery cable and the solenoid?
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By Ted - 7 Years Ago
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You should be pulling zero amps when hooking up the amp meter between the battery and the ground cable. As the charging system is not at 7+ volts when checking it at 1500 rpms, then the voltage regulator is a good place to start for both the inadequate voltage and the continuous loss of voltage when the car is not running.
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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The real solution is as Ted outlined, get the charging voltage up and isolate the leakage. As to the battery switches, just google it and you'll get a variety of them. I've used several of this type and still do. One car with a high amperage starter and high compression kills one about every 2 years. I carry a wrench to remove it if it fails, and just hook the cable back to the battery.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Well I know for a fact that the regulator is new, brand new, I'd be surprised if it's not working right. But I'm willing to put some tests on it if I knew what tests to do. 
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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miker (8/10/2017)
The real solution is as Ted outlined, get the charging voltage up and isolate the leakage. As to the battery switches, just google it and you'll get a variety of them. I've used several of this type and still do. One car with a high amperage starter and high compression kills one about every 2 years. I carry a wrench to remove it if it fails, and just hook the cable back to the battery.
Yeah funny enough I was just looking at those exact cutoff switches on youtube, honestly though the cars operation alone will destroy one of those things eventually? lol I guess they weren't exactly made for these old beasts were they? I was going to go up and see if I could find one at harbor freight which is where I heard you get those from. The only issue I foresaw is that the videos I watched said these need to be hooked up on the ground wire, but on the fords the grounds are the positive posts so I didn't even know if you could get those things to fit on the larger positive posts.
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By miker - 7 Years Ago
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You need the shop manual, it will tell you how to adjust the voltage regulator. New or not, if you're not showing 7.2 volts or there abouts at 1500 rpm or so, you're not charging the battery sufficiently. Adding load, like the lights, makes it worse. Those old voltage regulators are coil and point mechanical devices. Installing them included adjusting them. The bright side, a multimeter and a screwdriver is all you'll probably need. No computer skills necessary.
The battery disconnect will work fine on the negative terminal. Normally, shut offs or disconnecting the battery is always started on the grounded side to reduce the risk of an accidental short circuit. Basic safety procedure. Pull the positive ground, pull the hot negative, put the disconnect in, reconnect the hot negative and then reattach the positive ground cable.
After 17 years my bird is still running the 6 volt starter on 12 volts. I ran one of those disconnects for years on it with no failure. I was just warning you in case. With electronic ignition, etc, my car starts really quick, so I never tested the endurance of the disconnect switch on it. You can find much more heavy duty ones, they're just more money and maybe more work to install. Try a motorhome/RV outlet.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Do you think this digital volt meter would work in my 55?
https://www.ebay.com/i/181924696970?chn=ps&dispItem=1
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By paul2748 - 7 Years Ago
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Don't see why not - I used a digital lighter plugin voltmeter in my 56 Bird and it worked ok.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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You will have to find out how it is wired. It can read 0-99.9v but the display will have to work with 6v or less.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Alright, so I swapped out my modern regulator box for an old NOS regulator that I bought a few years back and for whatever reason thought it was defective and didn't use. I decided to do this because I noticed that the circuit breaker points (BAT) were misaligned and not directly above and below each other, that gave me the impression that the build quality might be questionable.
So I put the NOS box on and now I've got the opposite problem, I'm getting to much charge. The circuit breaker (BAT) points stay closed constantly at dle and at higher RPMs. The battery is being charged up into the 8 volt range which I know is too high. I know that this means I need to decrease the tension on the current and/or voltage regulator to limit the charge. I've watched this old Chrysler video on regulators from the 40s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRk1xbJIBcY
I'm just a little confused about the current (FIELD) and voltage (ARM) regulators. If I alter one of them (I think you start with the current regulator (Field) and bring the charge down to 7.2 - 7.3 volts where it's supposed to be. How do I know if the voltage regulator is set right? Or are they both fine as long as one is set to limit the max battery charge? It says in the video the voltage regular is a "pressure valve" so you don't overload your wiring, but I don't know how you'd get a reading on the setting of that regulator from a multi meter.
Also is it a rule that the generator shouldn't be outputting at idle? That you shouldn't get the circuit breaker cutting in till about 1500 RPMs? Does it damage anything if the generator is just running all the time, moving and idling? Or maybe I misunderstood you guys and you just mean the gen won't be spinning fast enough to make its maximum output till the engine is at 1500 RPMs.
UPDATE:
Well apparently I screwed something up. Now whenever the car is off, ignition off, key out, the GEN light comes on and stays on. It turns off when the car is running but it's on all the time now when the car is off. I had this problem years back and I have no idea how it got fixed and I don't know what I did to make it happen this time. The last thing I remember doing is I was using my multimeter to take readings directly from the connectors on the regulator to see what was being pumped out. I needed a ground and I grounded the other test lead to the ground bolt on the regulator.. I guess I should have grounded it on the battery. Whatever I'm stupid I guess.
The regulator box is a lot harder to adjust then it sounded like. I can barely get in there with a screwdriver or pliers to adjust the spring tension without making a spark on something. It's got my shutting the car off, disconnecting the battery, and starting it again just to make an adjustment now so that I don't burn something out.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Please, if anyone has any advice I'd really love to hear it, I'm totally lost at this point and I don't even know if my car is safe to drive. : (
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By wildman - 7 Years Ago
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Yes the voltage regulator is a good place to start. Keep in mind that if you put a new voltage regulator on you might have to flash the field to get the charging circuit to work as it should again. The battery cut offs are not that hard to put in most of the time you want to put them on the negative side and use 2 ground cables one from the battery to the cut off or master switch as some would call it and then the other to a good clean grounding point. I had that problem with my 64 for a while and found my brake light switch was pulling power but not enough to turn on the lights and would kill the battery over night.
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By wildman - 7 Years Ago
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pm me if you have more questions I will be glade to help.
Roger
Idaho Springs Colorado
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah I've tried flashing the generator a few times, thing is the generator is outputting and the GEN light is OFF when the car is running.
So here's something new. Went out to work on the car again this morning, I went ahead and put the other regulator box back on hoping it'd get that GEN light problem to go away (it didn't.) and I fixed the cut-off circuit so that now it closes when the engine is on. Anyway, taking a reading with the engine cold the voltage was right where it should be. Started at about 6.45 volts and climbed to 7.02 - 7.04 volts and stopped. Putting on the gas got it up to probably around 7.09 volts. (this was the same reading with the regulator cover on or off) This is just idling mind you, at idle the generator was producing power and climbing the battery voltage to 7.02 volts. Though maybe my idle is just fast, 1500 RPMS isn't very much acceleration is it.
Thing is, when the car was hot it was back to where it was yesterday producing about 6.48 volts at idle and climbing to about 6.97 volts with some gas given. I guess it makes sense as parts got hot and expanded it'd change the spring tension, I guess my question is is this normal and okay where it's set?
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By bergmanj - 7 Years Ago
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Half-dude,
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By paul2748 - 7 Years Ago
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.The "normal" range for a 12 volt car is 13.7 to 14.3 so it looks like your six volt system is okay
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By bergmanj - 7 Years Ago
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Half-Dude,
Sorry 'bout the two previous "fat fingers", folks.
The charging voltage is supposed to go down with temperature increase; "temperature compensation", built into the voltage regulator via "bi-metal" contact springs (the flat, usually blue-colored ones on top), is addressed in the shop manuals. I wish that I could "get-into" it here; but, dead-slow dial-up internet won't allow. This keeps you from overcharging and "boiling-out" (destroying) the battery at higher engine compartment temperatures
Regards, JLB
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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bergmanj (8/20/2017)
The charging voltage is supposed to go down with temperature increase; "temperature compensation", built into the voltage regulator via "bi-metal" contact springs (the flat, usually blue-colored ones on top), is addressed in the shop manuals.
Wow really?!
Jeeze I wish I knew this at the time, it's hard playing catch-up as you go, that's a relief though. You're sure that feature is built into modern day constructed mechanical regulator boxes too? I'll look that up. I only ask because I think I know what you mean, on the original regulator I took a picture of below, it's those triangular pieces on top right? The modern ones don't have those or at least don't have them looking the same.
I need to find a place that will show me how to make sure the amp switch is adjusted right, I sure don't want to blow any wires/bulbs/fuses/ect.
I guess the only problem left now is finding out how to make my GEN light turn off. Like I said, it's only on when the key is OFF. I tried looking elsewhere but all the other forums either have people that are stumped and/or use alternators and say the alternator is bad. My generator is obviously working.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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What terminal of the regulator do you have the wire going to the gen light connected to? It should go to the "A" armature terminal on the regulator.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Sandbird (8/20/2017)
What terminal of the regulator do you have the wire going to the gen light connected to? It should go to the "A" armature terminal on the regulator.
There are two connectors going to BAT one with leads going to it. One with two yellow wires, and one with a yellow and black stripe wire. The FIELD connector gas one small black wire lead going to it. The ARM has one lead with one big yellow wire.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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Move the yellow wire with black stripe from the Bat terminal and add it to the "A" armature terminal on regulator.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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You absolutely sure? I don't want to burn anything out.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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Take it one step at a time if you are unsure.
First remove the yellow/black stripe wire from the bat terminal of the regulator, leave it disconnected (position it so it does not touch anything) and see if the gen light stays off. A disconnected wire won't burn anything up. If it stays off gives us good reason that this is the correct wire going to gen light. Next with the key off connect the yellow/black wire going to gen light to the Armature terminal on regulator. Connecting a light bulb is no different than probing with a test light which I've never burned anything up with a test light. The light should now be off when switch is off and on when ignition is on and go off when engine is running and charging.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Well what do you know, that seems to have done the trick. I don't have a clue how those wires got swapped..
Thanks a ton for the help, I probably wouldn't have been able to figure that out no my own.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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Glad your gen light is working now.
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