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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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I recently replaced the ford 2100 2 barrel carb on my 292 in my 56 victoria with a holly 4 barrel . The ford tag on the Holly was DOPF 9510 V which was meant for a Ford service replacement on a 1970 289. I believe the CFM is 450. Choke is manual. I would think this size carb would be just about perfect on a stock 292 being that I want originality, smooth idle, and decent gas mileage. By the way I am running the 57 and later 4 barrel manifold and the 292 is a 1961 model with the small valve heads. After the swap, the difference in acceleration was obvious . The car has much more pep now. Problem is, I quickly get an accumulation of black soot on the inside of my chrome exhaust tips and can see traces of black smoke when I rev the engine. Car idles smooth before warm up in drive with foot on brake in traffic but has a bit of intermittent stumble when warmed up. The carb was given to me by my neighbor who was a parts manager at a Ford dealership back in the 60's and 70's. He saved a lot of stuff when they cleaned off the shelves ( That's what he told me) His garage was a treasure trove . Anyway, the carb looked nearly new but had sat in his garage for at least 30 years so I put a new rebuild kit in it. I noticed it had #55 on the jets. I also set the floats dry ( upside down and parallel) . I am hoping someone can advise me on how to eliminate the black smoke and stumble at idle at at the warmed up operating temp. One old timer told me I'm expecting it to idle like an old flathead and am being too picky. .
George
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By oldcarmark - 8 Years Ago
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55 Jets should be pretty close. I have #56 in mine and #57 in Buddies 390 Holley. My first Question is how did You set up the throttle Plates for initial adjustment? If you turn the Carb over there is a Transition Slot just above the Throttle Plate. The initial Adjustment should just show a "Square" below the Throttle Plate. The more of that Slot that is exposed draws more Fuel .You are not running on the Idle Circuit controlled by the Idle Mixture Screws. You shouldn't need to change that initial setup much.If You need a little more Air open the Secondary Plates a little. Resist the Temptation to turn up the Idle speed Screw. There should be a small Screw in the Base that contacts the Secondary lever as You turn it in. Black soot means it getting too much Gas. Check the Float Level by removing the Plug in the side of the Fuel bowl. (with the Engine Off). You should get just a trickle of Gas when You rock the Front of the Car from side to side. Much more that that means the level is too high and should be adjusted used the adjuster on the Float Bowl. Just a couple of Suggestions from my own Experiences when I changed mine to later Carb and Distributor. Once You get it setup properly it will Idle properly and You should not have any Soot etc.
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By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
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Any time you are using a carburetor tuned for one application on another application, that carb must be tuned for the new application. It is very likely that it simply needs to be tuned.
If the engine is in good condition, valves adjusted correctly, and the ignition is tuned and functioning properly, try adjusting the idle mixture and smaller jets.
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By DryLakesRacer - 8 Years Ago
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Many parts left on shelves and "taken" we're take off parts from warrentee work. Carburetors were at the top of the list. Many were never returned to the manufacturer and could have a defect. I have actually purchased a few in the replacement boxes which said "warrentee. I agree with others about the ignitial adjustment on the secondary plates as that has snuk on me too. Good luck.
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By oldcarmark - 8 Years Ago
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I think the Ford # is D0PF-9510-U not V. It is a service replacement for several Applications.
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By Ted - 8 Years Ago
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I’ll suggest setting the two idle mixture screws with a vacuum gauge or a wide band oxygen sensor. My own preference is for both screws to be adjusted the same number of turns from their seated position when the final idle screw adjustment is obtained. Does screwing in the idle mixture screws have a noticeable effect on the idle quality? Either mixture screw being screwed in should have the engine wanting to ‘die’. If the engine idle is unaffected by turning the screws in to their seated positions, then as mentioned, the primary side idle transfer slots may have too much exposed and will require some secondary blade adjustment in which to correct. It could also be a gasket or metering problem within the carb itself. Ideally, the best idle mixture adjustment should occur with the screws 1-1½ turns out from their seated position.
You don’t say if this carb was new or a ‘pull off’. If it’s a ‘pull off’, then it is suspect for having an internal problem. Beyond that, there are several things to check for when kitting a Holley carb. The power valve gasket is at the top of the list and depending upon the style of power valve and its gasket, the gasket may have slipped when tightening the power valve. It’s a given that the carburetor kit gaskets must be exact replacements and there are several different ones for Holley carbs. Another item to check is the flatness of main body surface where the metering block gasket must sit. If over-tightened, then there will be some warpage at the corners which keeps the metering block gasket from being adequately sealed. That can be repaired but the carburetor must be completely disassembled to do so. There is a fixed idle circuit on the secondary side of the carburetor and the float level back there is a controlling factor for that. You can try running the rear float level 1/8” below the sight plug threads and see it that helps.
Also make sure the idle bleed holes are all clear. These are located fore and aft of the venturies and can be seen when looking straight down the throats of the carb. Any stoppages of those will make for a richer mixture whether it’s the idle mixture or the main feed circuits. The outer bleeds are for the idle circuits while the inner bleeds are for the main circuits.
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By Ted - 8 Years Ago
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57RancheroJim (7/2/2017)
I understand that the primary throttle plates only need to expose the transfer slots enough to form a square looking opening and any further adjustment needed should be done with the secondaries. What I don't understand is why they made the primaries with a huge adjusting screw if there is only one correct setting and the secondary adjustment almost impossible to get to.
My book lists the DOPF-9510-U carb number as being a service carburetor for the 302, 390, 428, & 429 engines. No particular year models are specified so that part number would cover a wide range of year and cubic inch applications. It’s obviously not going to be a perfect bolt on and run in most cases. As such, some tweaks and/or adjustments will be needed to match that carb to the PCV valve, manifold vacuum, cubic inches, transmission, etc. for your particular combination.
As far as the adjustment range on the primary idle speed screw versus the inaccessibility of the secondary blade screw adjustment, you are not expected to mess with the secondary blade adjustment on an oem application. The factory engineers really don’t want you messing with it. The problem with making the secondary blades with an accessible adjustment screw would require another pair of idle mixture adjustment screws at the rear of the carb for the secondary side of the carburetor. That would be a problem for the model 4160 Holleys as they do not have a metering block that is accessible at the outside of the carb. Many of the model 4150/4160 Holley carbs have a fixed amount of idle feed on the secondary side and these do not give much leeway in the throttle blade adjustment.
Where the carburetor is being fitted to another application, then some adjustment may be required in that area. An option to increasing the secondary throttle blade opening is a pair of small holes in the primary throttle blades so that additional air can be put into the engine without exposing too much of the fuel transfer slot. Before doing any drilling on throttle blades, other options will need to have been eliminated.
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By petew - 8 Years Ago
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At 30 years old that power valve is probably hard as a rock and not being held completely shut at idle , I'd change that first.
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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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Thanks to all for advice on my carb. I am busy with plumbing issues in the house right now but will try the sight hole float adjustment first when I get the time. I have never used a vacuum gauge but am considering buying one . The Walker kit I used didn't give much instruction on settings other than the dry float settings and choke settings. The carb was a takeoff as I could see that it had slight useage And I agree with Ted that one must wonder why a nearly new carb was replaced. Reminds me of an advertised NOS teapot carb on ebay recently that was run for 30 minutes and then taken off and now for sale decades later.By the way, I googled Holly DOPF 9510 V and found Holly master list that listed both a U and a V model with the V being for 1970 289 cars and the U for 302 and larger. My gut sense tells me not to spend much more on this carb as it might indeed be defective. Once again, thank you all for the input and I will let you all know the outcome after i try a few tweaks.
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By oldcarmark - 8 Years Ago
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When I was looking for a 390 cfm Holley model 8007-0 ( which is what Holley recommends and is used by several of us on this Site) for my Buddies Car which is what I have on mine and really happy with it, I found a Supplier called "Carbsandmore" based in Texas. They list a rebuilt warrantied 390 CFM for $350.00 which is about half what a new One costs. I did find a good used One locally but I was very tempted to order One from them if I hadn't. I know from experience working on mine and now my Friends 56 doing the Conversion to later Distributor and Carb made a world of difference in the way it runs. If You can't get that Carb straightened out don't give up on it. Just bite the Bullet and buy a good Carb for it. Well worth the Expense. I have been in your situation when I purchased a 465 CFM Holley Carb on Ebay to do this Conversion. Appeared to be unused. Turns out someone swapped the Base for one off a 600 CFM Carb so basically the One I bought is useless and worthless.
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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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After reading input from viewers on this site and after viewing several Holley on line videos, I decided to remove the float level sight hole covers and discovered that the primary sloshed out a little too freely when i rocked the car and the secondary wept out the side rather liberally as soon as I unscrewed the sight hole screw. So, I lowered the primary float a little and the secondary float a lot until the fuel wept out of the sight holes just a little when I rocked the car. Result is no or nearly no more soot in the exhaust extensions. Car now runs sweet when warmed up and idles better than it ever has. I still have a few bugs to iron out and found little if anything on line pertaining to operation of manual choke with a Holley 4 barrel. What I mean is, Do I need to pull the choke out part way even on a warm morning. Lately, with the Tulsa mornings being in the upper 70's I have to feather the accelerator pedal or pull out the choke knob slightly when I pull out of the driveway or the motor hesitates when I accelerate off idle. Hesitation is not a problem off idle when the motor is warmed up , However when the motor is warmed up It will hesitate slightly when I accelerate while I am at a cruising. I noticed I can rev the engine, cold or hot, with trans in park, and get no hesitation at all . As the Holley acelerator pump video suggested I used my feeler gauge set at .015 to check the gap between the pump rod and adjustment screw while the throttle was wide open and felt a lot of drag. Unless I get better advice, I think I'll adjust the screw with the spring to lessen the drag on the gauge. Anyway, I'm hopeing someone who is running a Holley 4 barrel with a manual choke can verify from experience to me that it is either normal or not to need to choke an engine on start up on a very warm morning after the car has set all night.
George
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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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I think I have solved the soot in tailpipes problem by doing a wet setting on the floats. The primary was a little high and secondary float wept out gas liberally as soon as I unscrewed the sight hole plug. Black smoke and soot seem to be gone and aside from some hesitation problems at times the car runs and idles great, A question that I have and could not find an answer to on line is this: Even on a warm morning (upper 70's lower 80's) after the car has sat all night, do I still need to pull the choke knob out to some degree for the car to accelerate from idle without hesitation until the motor is warmed to optimum temp? The way it runs now as it starts immediately on 3 or so rolls. Without pulling out the choke knob, it will hesitate off idle as I pull out of the driveway. When the motor is warmed up off idle hesitation is gone but it still hesitates somewhat when I accelerate at a cruising speed. Car doesn't hesitate at all hot or cold if i rev the engine with the trans in park. I found lots of info on line about installing manual chokes but virtually nothing on operation of. Hope someone with a Holley 4 barrel with manual choke can advise me on this. Thanks George
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By miker - 8 Years Ago
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The ambient air temp plays into it, but you still need to build some heat in the combustion chambers and intake manifold for the engine to be "warm". So a little choke for richness and high idle isn't uncommon on a cold motor even on a warm day. Not much, it's easier to flood it. If you're sure you're good on the accelerator pump (and I'd look there first), and the proper idle mixture, you might be just a tad lean. That can cause a hesitation under load. Couple jet sizes at most, but based on your other post, I'd look more at the throttle plate set ups a mentioned above.
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By oldcarmark - 8 Years Ago
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geo56 (7/17/2017)
After reading input from viewers on this site and after viewing several Holley on line videos, I decided to remove the float level sight hole covers and discovered that the primary sloshed out a little too freely when i rocked the car and the secondary wept out the side rather liberally as soon as I unscrewed the sight hole screw. So, I lowered the primary float a little and the secondary float a lot until the fuel wept out of the sight holes just a little when I rocked the car. Result is no or nearly no more soot in the exhaust extensions. Car now runs sweet when warmed up and idles better than it ever has. I still have a few bugs to iron out and found little if anything on line pertaining to operation of manual choke with a Holley 4 barrel. What I mean is, Do I need to pull the choke out part way even on a warm morning. Lately, with the Tulsa mornings being in the upper 70's I have to feather the accelerator pedal or pull out the choke knob slightly when I pull out of the driveway or the motor hesitates when I accelerate off idle. Hesitation is not a problem off idle when the motor is warmed up , However when the motor is warmed up It will hesitate slightly when I accelerate while I am at a cruising. I noticed I can rev the engine, cold or hot, with trans in park, and get no hesitation at all . As the Holley acelerator pump video suggested I used my feeler gauge set at .015 to check the gap between the pump rod and adjustment screw while the throttle was wide open and felt a lot of drag. Unless I get better advice, I think I'll adjust the screw with the spring to lessen the drag on the gauge. Anyway, I'm hopeing someone who is running a Holley 4 barrel with a manual choke can verify from experience to me that it is either normal or not to need to choke an engine on start up on a very warm morning after the car has set all night. George
The accelerator Pump Arm should start to move the Pump as soon as the Throttle starts to open. With the Throttle wide open(Engine off) you should be able to insert a .015 Feeler Gauge between the Arm and the Pump. You need that little bit of extra to prevent over stretching the Pump Diaphragm. If You get that setup correctly You may find the hesitation at mid Throttle is better or gone. If not You could try increasing the Jet Size 2 Sizes. Not sure whats in there now. Holley suggests 2 sizes up as One Size will not make much difference. I have the Automatic Choke on Mine and its Active even in mid Summer. I have it setup on the 2 notches Lean so its not on too long. Just enough to get it warmed up. One thing I did with mine at "Greenbirds" suggestion was replace the 2 Needle and Seats with Steel substitutes which are used for "Alternate Fuels". I think they were .130 Size which You can find on Ebay or order from a Holley supplier. Ebay Item # 230491761264. The Ones that come in the Kit are soft Tipped and can stick closed when exposed to all the Crap in Today's Gas. You may want to add a Fuel Pressure Regulator. Holley suggests 5 lb minimum and 7 Max. Holley Carbs don't do well with Pressure higher than 7. The fuel can actually pass through the Needle and Seat causing flooding. Sounds like You are on the right Track. Keep tuning it.
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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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Thanks for the info on the choke to Miker. I couldn't find any info on line. She shure runs smoother and accelerates better on very warm mornings with the choke pulled out about an inch or so. She still hesitates when accelerating at a cruising speed. I set the primary pump with a feeler gauge at .015. I even set it at another turn both clockwise and counter clockwise and still get hesitation. I think the next thing to try are larger jets than the 55's that are in it or to change the squirter. I think I'll call Holley tomorrow for advice. Idle screws are wound out 1 turn .
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By miker - 8 Years Ago
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Go back and look at oldcarmark's post on jet sizes. If, big if, the throttle blades are good and the accel pump is set right, a couple jet sizes might be it. If 57's or 58's don't show a difference, then I'd look elsewhere.
If that doesn't work, then check the power valve, if it's stuck, or a real low vacuum, you might have a lean case. That's pretty easy to take a look at doing a jet change. But I don't think it's likely.
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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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I hope I didn't insult all the people trying to help me on this site when I said I was going to call Holley tech tomorrow. As my car seems to run much better with the choke pulled out slightly , it would make sense that it might be running a little lean. I have read that Holly technitions can recommend the proper jet and or squirter size when given the application. At least close. DOPF # on my carb indicates a service replacement on a 289. I can imagine that it should be adjusted richer if it is pulling a heavy Victoria with a boat anchor 292. Also it might be an apples/oranges comparison but my Vicky ran great with an autolite 2100 2 barrel with #50 jets. My Holly has #55 jets. I feel I am getting close to getting this carb right If jets and squirters don't fix it, one other possibility might be the vacuum advance on the distributer. I'm just a parts changer but a while back, when I was running a 2 barrel, a hot shot friend of mine adjusted the vacuum advance with an allen wrench from its default setting. Does anyone know the default setting on these? Thanks George
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By oldcarmark - 8 Years Ago
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The adjustable vacuum advance should be setup to give about 8 degrees of available advance. Turning the Allen Key CC shortens the Advance. CW gives more. There's probably 26 Degrees Centrifugal built into the Distributor. 8 Degrees Initial + 8 Degrees Vacuum+ 26 Degrees Centrifugal totals 42 Degrees. That's about where You want to be. Changing the Advance Springs to Lighter Ones will allow full Advance by 2500 RPM. The Vacuum Advance is probably set at 16-18 the way it is now. You can check by using a Timing Light and applying vacuum to the Advance and see how much timing changes. Use the Allen Key to adjust it. Asking the Holley Guys for advise is a good Idea. That's what they are there for. I am having a similar problem with My Buddies 390 Holley that We swapped along with a Cardone Distributor. I will be following Your results and maybe something will apply to the One I am working on.
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By 2721955meteor - 8 Years Ago
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my new holley came with 65 main jets,installed 60s the stumble off idea came,just went back to65s stumble got,as well the fuel hear has more ethenall in summer months,and i am running 87 obtain.should go to mid grade i guess
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By GREENBIRD56 - 8 Years Ago
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Getting a stable float setting will do wonders for a "wet" carb. Raising and lowering the float level (within reason) will tune the jets a bit (richer or leaner a shade) so long as fuel is not running out the sight holes.
Probably will have to change to a larger accelerator pump "shooter" - its the device that makes the mixture richer as you open the throttle.
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By 2721955meteor - 8 Years Ago
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GREENBIRD56 (7/18/2017)
Getting a stable float setting will do wonders for a "wet" carb. Raising and lowering the float level (within reason) will tune the jets a bit (richer or leaner a shade) so long as fuel is not running out the sight holes. Probably will have to change to a larger accelerator pump "shooter" - its the device that makes the mixture richer as you open the throttle.
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By DryLakesRacer - 8 Years Ago
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Don't do too much comparing of jets from one carb to another, they are sized to the Venturi of the carb as manufactured. It is definatly possibly and probable that the same carb can be used from a 289 thru a 429 because of compression ratio. A higher comp ratio demands a richer jetting.
I know Holley recommendations are for an accelerator pump arm but I make sure it's squirts even with a slight movement of the throttle if a stumble bothers me. Setting to wide open throttle is OK but I'm never there and drivability is my first concern period. The plastic cam on the carb linkage can be adjusted to find the correct feel for your car. Also make sure all the bleeders are clear...good luck.
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By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
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The clearance check of the accelerator pump at wide open throttle has nothing to do with the actual performance at wot. It is only to ensure that you have clearance so nothing breaks when the throttle is wide open.
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By geo56 - 8 Years Ago
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I removed the discharge nozzle this evening . It is #31 tube type. The plan is to call Holley tomorrow to see if it is a good match for my 292.
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By Joe-JDC - 8 Years Ago
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A #28 squirter would give a smaller shot for a longer period of time. The #31 dumps a lot of fuel in just off idle and empties the 30cc cavity rather quickly. This will cause it to be rich off idle. The fuel mileage will be less with the #31 because every time you open the primary butterfly the larger tubes empty more fuel into the engine. Joe-JDC
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By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
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The volume of the pump shot is determined by the stroke, which is controlled by the pump cam. The squirter determines the duration of that shot. Everything else equal, a #28 will provide the same volume over a longer time and #31 will provide the same volume over a shorter time. Because of the difference in duration, the #31 will provide more fuel at a given throttle position, but it will provide exactly the same amount of fuel as a #28 for a full pump stroke.
Don't expect much from Holley about recommendations. I tried that when I first got my carb, filled out every bit of info they asked for in the contact form, which includes stuff the average person probably doesn't have a clue about regarding the build of their engine. The response was something along the lines of it's impossible for us to know what your engine needs and you have to tune it.
Regarding the .015" "gap"for the accelerator pump I saw in an earlier post, and loosening the screw to reduce drag. It is not a gap. It is a clearance check. You are simply ensuring that nothing in the accelerator pump will bind at wot and possibly damage the carburetor. Adjust the screw so you have no gap at idle and then check that you have .015" clearance at wot. Do not loosen the screw after this.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 8 Years Ago
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For any given state of tune (and a functioning pump) - there can be a variable acceleration / stumble depending on the acc. pump shot. I don't know what the shooters are worth these days but trial and error has worked pretty well over the years. Sadly - there aren't a great number of us left with a stack of old carbs to sort through and grab a different part number.....but that has often been my course of action. I once saw a (brave) Holley rep drill one and cure a problem at a clinic - but its not the choice of mortals.
On my current carb, I replaced the shooter screw with a "high flow" (alcohol) replacement (has a machined relief) and the result was favorable without a shooter size change. So, be aware that a minor change of the pump shot can change the behavior of the engine ....... the lean stumble can be made to go away.
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