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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Hey there guys! Getting to be spring again, time to get the old Fairline out of hibernation and ready for shows.
I was curious about two little things:
-I've had issues with temperature on my Fairlane for awhile now, those here who remember me probably know. Most of the issue seems to have been tied to a bad spring on the exhaust valve. So needless to say I've been keeping an eye on my temperature out of habit at this point. I've noticed this though lately. It takes my 272 almost 30 minutes to reach around 190o (operating temperature), granted I drive my 55' very gently, treat her like the respectable old dame she is, but I'm just wondering if this is normal even for gentle driving. It seems like a long time, but then again I've heard cast iron blocks take longer to heat up then modern aluminum blocks
Kind of funny, an engine that has had issues with running too hot, ironically takes so long to get up to temperature initially. She still does run hot eventually. Hovers around 180 for awhile, raising and falling between 180 and 190 or even 200. Then at some point the cooling system just starts to say "screw it" and it'll start slowly raising up to around 220 or more and I'll have to stop. Luckily though again out of habit I don't take her on very long drives so it rarely ever runs that long to get that high.
-The other question. When cold my car will idle the same speed no matter what gear it's in (Fordomatic). But when my Fairlane us up to operating temperature if you shift out into Park or Neutral, the idle will go from normal up to an elevated idle almost like you have your foot on the gas a bit.Kinda makes me want to shot her off while in gear just to avoid it doing that as it just.. doesn't feel right. Is this some sort of timing advance or carburetor issue maybe or is it even an issue? Just seems weird that it'd jump up to a way faster idle when out of gear.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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How are you determining the temperature?
Does the temperature climb only at idle or very low speed?
Or does it climb at cruise?
The rpm should change a little between drive and neutral / park. A big change or none at all does indicate some issue with the tune. It could be carburetor and/or, ignition.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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I've got an aftermarket temperature gauge, the sender is installed in the same spot as the factory gauge.
I'd say a little of all. It'll climb very slowly when cold idling, slowly when cold and just driving stop and go gently (30/35MPH), it'll raise pretty quick when stopped and idling when hot, and it'll raise the fastest when cruising, when its at high speed like (40-60MPH).
Well maybe I'll have to record the jump in idle and post it here, hard to know what is normal without any frame of reference. I DO think that I may have to re-do my timing. When I had my carburetor rebuilt by CarburetorsANDmore they for some reason, aside from having me get a fuel pressure regulator, had me set the timing to some universal setting that they said all cars with their rebuilt carbs should have. But now I'm thinking I should try going back to the factory timing, because it never did quite make sense to me that a carburetor should determine the engine timing. Maybe I'm wrong?
I did take these readings with a vacuum gauge awhile back. Maybe it'd be helpful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keEh5naZZ-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv-cHtj9LEM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp61E5BfG84
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By 2721955meteor - 7 Years Ago
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some checks that you should state to get proper help
has the rad bin cleaned (by a credible rad shop)
do you have the correct fan and shroud
is the therm new.
as a55 ford auto trans the torque is air cooled, at long stops like traffic lights, i would shift to n not park .
after this info you will get credible feed back
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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The actual temperature will be about 15 degrees higher than indicated by the gauge, since the coolant still has to pass over 3 combustion chambers.
That it does not stay cool at high speed indicates that you have a coolant flow or air flow problem. At those speeds, air flow should not be a problem, unless something is in front of the radiator, blocking flow. Make sure nothing is blocking the radiator, like a plastic bag that somehow worked its way through the grill and onto the core.
Make sure the supply hose (lower) is not collapsing at higher rpm.
The next easiest thing to check that will cause this is the thermostat. They can go bad and either not open or open only slightly. This restricts coolant flow, causing the engine to overheat at higher rpm. An easy way to check this is to use a heat gun or put it into boiling water and observe how far it opens. Also observe the temperature at which it begins to open and then is fully open to make sure that it is inline with the thermostat's rating. If you're not sure how much the thermostat should open, use a known good one in this test for comparison.
Next would be to have the radiator evaluated.
Once the cause of that problem may is solved, reevaluate your idle temperatures. If you still have a problem, it is very likely the water pump pulley size. They are generally far too big for extended idle time. The bigger the water pump pulley, the slower the water pump. That means less coolant flow, and less airflow since the fan also turns more slowly. I don't know why Ford decided on such a huge pulley for cars but it contributes to overheating in modern traffic.
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By Lou - 7 Years Ago
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As for the change in RPM when shifting between gears, check your kick- down linkage.see if it's rubbing or binding etc.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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No the radiator hasn't been cleaned, professionally at least. I've done flushes myself at home for whatever that's worth. The fan is stock, and the cars didn't come with shrouds so, I kinda figured that I should be getting at least cooling as designed. Though I know, I've read, that because of age and possible build-up the cooling system might not work as good as it should. Does anyone know any good shrouds for 55s? Hopefully one that doesn't look too ugly? I'm trying to stay as stock as possible.
That's actually news to me, should I be shifting out of gear at traffic lights? o.o
----
Really now? 15 degrees huh? That's pretty crazy and inaccurate design!
So for the lower radiator hose. It's got an internal wire skeleton or whatever it's called to keep it from collapsing, I guess a test would be to increase engine speed there at the engine and watch the hose to see if it sucks into itself? The lower hose that's in there kinda kinks at the bend, but it's a new hose and the original hose looked like that too. Maybe when I take the radiator to get cleaned I should get a new hose huh? Here's a picture of it.
Nah no plastic bags or obstructions at the radiator, sure of that!
The thermostat is new, it's the second one I've put in when I was dealing with the overheating stuff. I believe you told me about that boiling water test back then too and I did that to the stat before I put it in the engine.
I came SO close to getting my radiator cleaned out, it was out of the car and everything just sitting there in the basement.. I really should have cleaned it then. : /
What size waterpump pulley would you recommend anyone with a stock engine to upgrade to then?
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By Lou - 7 Years Ago
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Actually the 54,55 and 56 Fords did come with shrouds, but they were disguised. There was an air dam on top of the front radiator support with a rubber strip on top to seal it against the hood, and on the bottom were the splash pans. However I believe your problem will not be solved by just adding a shroud of any type.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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Rev the engine and watch the hose to see if it collapses. You need to trim the hose to get it to fit correctly.
For a stock or mild engine, about a 5.5" pulley should work great. There are no pulleys made for a Y-Block but the bolt pattern and shaft diameter is very common. Spend a day in a junk yard and pick a couple to try, or contact pulley manufacturers, March, Billet Specialties, CVF Racing, etc., tell them what you need and see what they have. You can work with a pulley that is a little deeper than required because you can space it out to tine up the groove but it cannot be shallower.
There are also options for a custom pulley which will fit perfectly but that is expensive.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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Insufficient timing advance at part throttle cruise (40-60mph) will cause overheating. I'm guessing you may have an original full vacuum operated advance distributor. If so the carburetor is an integral part of the advance system in addition to the vacuum vacuum diaphragm and breaker plate in the distributor so keep this in mind if you do any trouble shooting in this area. At part throttle cruise the total advance is around 30 deg,
Too lean a carburetor mixture can also lead to overheating. You can look at the coloring of your spark plugs to get an idea if your running lean if the electrode insulator is white.
The fact that your engine is slow to warm up makes me think your radiator is this least likely cause in this case although a clogged radiator will cause overheating.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Well that's an interesting point..
I'll see if I can find myself a good timing light. When I did it with a buddy of mine awhile back it was with a crappy dim Harbor Freight light.
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By 2721955meteor - 7 Years Ago
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if the rad has not bean roded (top tank removed and small flat rodes pushed down the tubes) it is not clean.you would be better off to replace the rad with the aluminum replacements,they are reasonably priced. most rad shops in bc, only use sonic cleaning which to me is a wast of money. If the rad is not clean inside,and out side you are wasting your time doing any other hoped for a cure.
and yes ford picked a poor placement for the temp sender,as charley stated,as well only showing temp on 1/2 of the engine.
so be consistent in curing your issue. good luck
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By DryLakesRacer - 7 Years Ago
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I cured my over heating problem with a smaller pulley. 5-1/2" from a 60's Mustang, chromed ones are on line along with a spacer kit. I just painted it black. The original one on my 56 was over 7".
There is a supplier in Texas that makes a "plastic" 2 piece fan shroud. I bought one and spent some time taking all the flashing and sanding smooth with filler primer. The top fit fine but the bottom hit my power steering pulley. Apparently I have an incorrect power steering pump. It's now a wall hanger. I will say it is a nice piece if you don't mind playing with it. I found out about the smaller pulley at the same time I was working on the shroud. I also have the upper radiator seal and the 2 panels under the radiator to the engine.
My engine takes about 3-4 miles to get up to operating tempature.,Good Luck.
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By 2721955meteor - 7 Years Ago
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dry lakes has good info,but trying to pump more water threw a inefficient rad has marginal effect. new rad good them, sound engine original shrouding no over heating. to many short cuts does not do much but run up the bill. those who are getting big power from there ys of coarse need more cooling. my 47pickup has a alumn rad good for 350 hp, so they say.
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By DryLakesRacer - 7 Years Ago
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My overheating problem was well documented here. It was a water movement at idle that was my problem and I had the best ultra cool radiator from US Radiator. Since my car was 99% in town and high traffic of So Cal I needed a fix and Green Birds here
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By DryLakesRacer - 7 Years Ago
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Told me of that fix. Ted came in later and said how any different water pulleys there were because of different climates. For me I'm happy with the smaller pulley and glad I don't run the 6 blade noisy fan any more. I also put a plug in the bypass and then drilled a 1/8" hole in it. Perhaps that's the origami problem here. That bypass with no plug and a 180 * thermostat could help with heating up quicker which is what started this topic...
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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2721955meteor (4/14/2017)
if the rad has not bean roded (top tank removed and small flat rodes pushed down the tubes) it is not clean.you would be better off to replace the rad with the aluminum replacements,they are reasonably priced. most rad shops in bc, only use sonic cleaning which to me is a wast of money. If the rad is not clean inside,and out side you are wasting your time doing any other hoped for a cure. and yes ford picked a poor placement for the temp sender,as charley stated,as well only showing temp on 1/2 of the engine. so be consistent in curing your issue. good luck
I came incredibly close to getting a new radiator when my old one was off the car. Like so close that I'd won one in an Ebay auction and barely managed to back out of it at the last minute. : \ I would have NO problem upgrading my radiator to a more modern design, just as long as it looked original. But every radiator I seem to find is this chromed out, weld-mark visable ugly looking eye sore! I mean just look at this thing, YUCK
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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I agree, they aren't very nice visually. I ended up putting one in my 57, I'd rather be able to drive my car then sitting on the side of the road looking pretty. I took a chance and bought one, it isn't chrome its aluminum. I don't put a lot of miles on mine, just hit 8000 after three years and no problems.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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57RancheroJim (4/15/2017)
I'd rather be able to drive my car then sitting on the side of the road looking pretty.
Yeah yeah I know. : / That's the big decision. Be totally original and keep your drives short, or get an actual working system and be able to drive as far as you want.. that is unless you wanna shell out $500 dollars for a US Radiator that looks stock..
I guess even the cheapest modern radiator has to work better then and old 50s radiator that's probably kinda dirty inside.. maybe.. maybe the best course of action would be to get a cheapo radiator like that one in the pic. $150/200 one, just to see if it even fixes the issue. Because as it sounds, the radiator may not even be my whole problem.. hate to spend $500 bucks then have the radiator not even end up being the problem. Hell that's why I backed out of getting on earlier, because I thought I'd figured out the overheating was actually being caused by the exhaust valve not opening. Which WAS adding to the problem, but keeping it open didn't totally fix the problem.. just postponed it.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Hey I found this one.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-1955-1956-FORD-SUNLINER-CUSTOMLINE-MAINLINE-CRESTLINE-VICTORIA-RADIATOR-/291531588311?fits=Year%3A1955%7CMake%3AFord%7CModel%3AFairlane%7CSubmodel%3ABase%7CEngine+-+Liter_Display%3A4.4L&hash=item43e0a302d7:g:UKwAAOSwp5JWaZJI&vxp=mtr
It's not completely original looking but at least it's stamped metal and similar looking. I suppose it could also be painted black if it really bugged me enough. What do you guys think? Do you think it'd do the job? Is that a good brand?
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By DryLakesRacer - 7 Years Ago
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PM sent.
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By Rono - 7 Years Ago
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We bought a "Champion" radiator for our 56 Ranch Wagon and are pretty happy with it. Dimensionally, it fit perfectly. If you are running an automatic though, be prepared to bend your transmission cooling lines a bit because the bottom tank on the radiator is configured a little differently than stock which changes the angle of the fittings on the bottom tank. Trying to bend the steel lines to make them fit is kind of a PAIN!
Rono
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By 2721955meteor - 7 Years Ago
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my 57ranchero has the original type rad(,cleaned ,180 stat original bypass hose unrestricted) stock pump pulley.temp guage is new location a the front of intake..i ran in heaven trafic all summer which was our hotest in years. no heating issues. i use anty freeze all year as anty freeze has better heat exchange than water. myn is 292/ 040 bore with 4v,and std trans. years ago a buddy had a 55 272 fordamatic,in traffic he always shifted to n that unloaded engine and helped cool trans(air cooled torqe.)
must admit that those in ca in the summer with traffic are in a different world than i am.
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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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 My car has a 5 blade fan that has a Ford part number on it. Not sure what it is off but it pulls lots of air at idle and my pump pulley is larger than the crank pulley. It has large flex blades with an enormous pitch that flatten at higher revs so less power robbing. Other than the fan all is original, no blocked bypass, copper and brass radiator, 180 thermostat. The only time I ever see the temp creep up is when stuck in traffic on 100F or higher days, but it has never boiled, and I'm sure a smaller pump pulley would probably cure that.
I recall on this sight a link from another car group that did exhaustive testing and came to the conclusion that stationary overheating if there are no mechanical problems was usually the result of not enough air flow.
From the original question, in my case the YBlock is the best of any car I've had to get to running temperature quickly.
I find easiest way to check bottom hose is just to squeeze it when cold and you can quickly feel if the wire is still all intact.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 7 Years Ago
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It sounds to me like the engine has a vacuum leak - that gets bigger AFTER a period of running. Is this engine still running a factory initial time setting - with a Load-O-Matic distributor?
Lose vacuum - Idle speeds up - Spark retards.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Man that fan really does look like it would move a lot of air Ian57!
So if I wanted to check the block for blockages inside the coolant channels, how hard are the freeze-plugs to pull out and get in there? Are they difficult to get back in again? And do you run the risk of causing leaks from those things if you mess with them?
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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DryLakesRacer (4/14/2017)
I cured my over heating problem with a smaller pulley. 5-1/2" from a 60's Mustang, chromed ones are on line along with a spacer kit. I just painted it black. The original one on my 56 was over 7".
Found this one for a 66' Mustang offered at O'Rileys... is this what you got?
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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I remember that flex fans were prone for the blades flying off. One customer of the gas station I worked at had a nasty slice in his hood from a blade that flew off. The dealer replaced it with a clutch fan. They were deemed dangerous and we were told not to stand next to the fan with the engine running.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 7 Years Ago
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1/2 Dude - how does the vacuum look when you are up at the "overheat" situation?
Flex fans have a problem, especially with truck applications - where you are climbing a long grade ( I was living in the mountains at the time) at elevated rpm (lower gear). Fan flattens out - moves less air at just the wrong time......... lots of load lots of revs and reduced airflow.
Conventional six blade, direct drive is a good choice - the one I have on the car now is an aluminum 7 blade off an older Pontiac. I think Ford was using a five blade on the air-conditioned cars of that era.
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By 2721955meteor - 7 Years Ago
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core plugs ,i use the rubber ones,as it is no easy task to get the core plugs,just have to loosen the state and let it hang down. do not loose them into the block,drive them in on 1 side then grab them with small vise grips. clean the holes the ruber expandebels work fine for me
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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1/2 Dude - how does the vacuum look when you are up at the "overheat" situation?
Good question! I'll make a point to check that for ya.
===
So I got to cleaning my timing marks a bit. CLR is amazing stuff man. I'm prepping to do a timing check/adjustment soon, just ran out today and got me a Bosch timing light. Yes, I have never owned a timing light till now. The last time we did it was with my buddy Harald and he had a crappy Harbor Freight timing light you could barely see. Anyway, his mark it still on there actually and yeah if I remember right from seeing it. The guy that rebuilt my carburetor said the timing had to be set at 12o before TDC no matter what any car's factory manual says so that's what we did. I looked online tonight because I forgot and it looks like factory calls for 6o before TDC.
I gave the guy at Carburetors and More an email to double check what he said, I'll let you know when I get a response.
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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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Interesting point you made Steve, about the fan flattening out up hills under load. Would never apply to my car and besides that we don't have any mountains here.
I've not heard of a factory flex fan letting go but I can imagine it is possible with metal fatigue. The fan on my car has a second piece behind the flex blade to spread the load so that it is not all on the rivets. I don't know if they are still sold but I remember early aftermarket fans were very basic and the entire load would have been directly on the rivets.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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Most Y blocks will run fine at 12 degrees. The problem is the dampener ring that has the timing marks isn't always accurate as it can slip after years of use, a very common problem. Also check the timing at higher RPM with the vacuum advance connected to see if the advance is working. Did you have the vacuum advance disconnected when you checked the initial timing?
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By Talkwrench - 7 Years Ago
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You cant just run 12 degrees without checking what the total timing is , as you just added 6 degrees overall and there will be a good likelihood of it pinging its ring off..[more-so with low octane] Chances are to run that extra, which yes they do like you'll need to modify the distributor.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Okay so Chuck over at Carburetors & More emailed me back tonight and here's what he said about the new spec he recommends for his rebuilt carboretors:
The timing is for all carburetors and all vehicles all carburetors and all vehicles. It is for the new alcohol and methanol based fuels.
The spec is 30o BTDC..
So it sounds like this new spec isn't due to some internal change to the carburetor, but more of his personal experience/preference. It's the same thing as him recommending all his customers put a fuel regulator on their cars and limiting the pressure to 3. Apparently he's done a lot of research on the subject of ethanol fuel and found that ethanol froths up in carburetor bowls when being pumped at the regular pressure that mechanical fuel pumps pump at
How does this sound to you guys? Is this a reasonable timing spec or is this guy out of his mind? Should I try just going at the factory recommended 6 degrees? At least to see if timing is causing the overheating?
Also I'm new to timing, in fact I've only done it twice and the first time I was more watching it then doing it. BTDC isn't even shown on the dampener so... how do I know where that is to mark it? I think that's what my buddy was marking on there with the white ink, what he thought 30o BTDC was.. I think.
This is about 30o BTDC right?
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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30 deg. initial timing has to be a mistake. You probably wouldn't be able to get the engine to crank. Is that a weld mark on the dampener weight I see in the photo? Ranchero Jim is right, if your going to set your timing with a light you need to accurately determine your TDC mark. Or you could time it by ear by advancing it a couple degrees at a time and drive it a while and see if it pings under load, if it doesn't advance it a couple more degrees. Do this till it pings then back it off a couple degrees. 30 deg. sounds more like the total advance of the distributor.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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I agree, 30 degrees would be the total not the initial at idle. I don't know what the LOD distributor adds to the total, assuming you still have an original distributor. But its important that the vacuum advance is working, a LOD has no mechanical advance, a lack of total timing will cause heating problems. Even 30 sounds a little low. I run a total of 36, 12 initial + 24 distributor on California special blend of fuel crap with no problem.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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That looks like a weld to me, as well, in which case, it is past time to replace that damper. If the age of the damper is unknown, then it is also past time to replace it.
12 degrees initial is fine. However, as others have said, that is not all you do when you tune timing. You also have to check the total advance and change the amount and rate of advance in the distributor, if necessary.
The white mark your buddy made is nowhere near 30 degrees. You can see the degree marks and by the spacing of the marks, his white line is at 13-14 degrees. If he timed it thinking that is where total advance comes in, then that could contribute to your overheating problem as the engine is severely retarded.
30 degrees does not make sense for initial timing. If it is total advance, then it is too little. If it is distributor advance, then it should be ok with the stock 6 initial but too much with 12 initial. You want 36-38 total. With 12 degrees initial, that is 24-26 from the distributor.
Timing by ear is a bad idea if you want things to be right. I know loads of people do it and it has it's place like where a timing light is not available but you just need to get home - and when you get home, you put a light on it. You can also have more advance than the engine needs without it pinging. That can cost you power and fuel economy. An ear is not a precision tuning device.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Hey thanks for all the advice so far.
By weld mark do you mean that stuff on the left? If so that's just dirty soapy cleaner, I was just washing the timing marks off before I took the picture.
When I get home I'll definitely see if the advance is working. I know I'm getting good vacuum at least at idle. The wipers work great for instance.
Total timing and the advance rate are both controlled by the springs in the distributor right?
I don't know if this would have anything to do with it. But I've always found it strange that I never feel the car shift itself up when speeding up gradually. I just seems to rev progressively faster.. I always figured it was a fordomatic thing.. that they just shift really smoothly. But a timing advance problem would cause the tranny not to climb a gear while speeding up would it? Probably a dumb question.
I'll go home today record what my initial and total is, adjust the initial to 6, check my total again and take a drive and let you guys know.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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Your timing won't have any effect on the trans shifting. The shifting is controlled by pressure. The linkage between the throttle linkage and trans is a fine adjustment that controls the pressure providing there isn't any problem with the trans. From what you described it sounds like the trans is staying in 2nd gear?
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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The springs control the rate. The amount of advance is limited by a stop. The precise method of limiting the amount can vary from one distributor brand to another. Sometimes bushings can be used to change it. Other times welding or brazing is required.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Okay big news dump:
I checked my damper to see if TDC on it was accurate. I read up some methods of checking and decided to do the screwdriver in the 1# spark plug hole trick. I felt the piston push the screwdriver up (actually pinned it once I had to back it off a little to get it out lol) and I felt the piston immediately start going back down right after it passed the TDC mark on the damper, turning clockwise. This leads me to say it's accurate. It's a low mileage engine so I kinda expected it to (34,000 original miles) I also took a picture of the spark plug. It does look a little white so maybe I'll richen my mixture a little, but i'll post the picture to see what you guys think.
I managed to mess with the timing today after work before it started raining. I've got a video uploaded of my initial timing check and I feel a bit guilty admitting it but my timing was actually.. worse then 30o.. well past that mark my friend made for some reason. Yikes.. be easy on me guys I already feel bad about it already. I guess maybe he didn't know what he was doing after all.. or the setting changed over time.. I recorded a video for you guys here. Also yes, I had the vacuum advance unplugged and plugged when I did this.
Took me a bit to get the distributor to actually turn, it was frozen it seems, but once it broke free it spun easily enough. I adjusted it back down to about 6o though I was.. kinda stupid and forgot to mark 6o with white ink before doing all this so I couldn't really see the mark on the damper clearly. So right now I've got it in the ballpark, 6o-ish - 12o-ish I figured anything's better then where it was. I honestly don't notice that much of a difference if you can believe that, I guess it's a TAD smoother but nothing remarkable.
Sorry I also forgot to check my vacuum advance, I'll be doing that and uploading a video tomorrow. Though I've got suspicions it's not working, read below.
So I decided to do some slow driving through the neighborhood just to see how she did. I didn't lock down the distributor as I'd be messing with it again tomorrow and it turns pretty tightly anyway. But I made it a point not to go very far or push her hard. At low speed driving she does great and does seem to run a bit smoother. I wouldn't be surprised if this was my overheating issue but I haven't gotten a chance to really find out yet it's pretty cool this evening. However I noticed that if I gently gunned it a little jumping from 20 to 30ish the engine would want to hesitate and run rougher until I let up, but she seemed to do fine if I slowly and gradually raised my speed. That leads my untrained mind to think the advance isn't working or the curve is off.. what do you think? I could try to record it but I don't know if it would come through in a video.
Also, after I retarded the timing I also lowered the idle speed. I know the idle is very fast in the video. That's just because when it was at 30o the engine got a LOT slower when in gear as apposed to in park or neutral. So if I'd shown you, as soon as I'd put it in drive the idle would go back down to normal.
All in all a pretty good night though. Just some fine tuning tomorrow and I'll lock it down and then move on to see what that hesitation is about.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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You need to know the idle speed. If it is high enough, then the mechanical advance is coming into play, making your initial timing appear to be higher than it is.
If what you are showing is initial advance and it actually started with that much advance, then that seriously brings into question the accuracy of the marks on your damper. The other reason that I say it is time to replace it is that age takes it's toll The rubber material between the mass and the hub deteriorates. this means that even if by some chance it is actually ok now, it won't be for a whole lot longer.
Another thing that could be happening is the advance springs are weak or have broken, allowing full advance right from idle. This is easy to check. Rev the engine slowly and make sure that the ignition advances smoothly. When you release the throttle, it should return to the initial setting. If that does not happen or is inconsistent, then you need to pull the distributor to repair and rebuild. If it is original, I guarantee that it needs to be rebuilt.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Well the advance couldn't have been coming into play during that reading, I had the vacuum line disconnected. Unless the springs are bad like you said . But I could literally feel the piston go back down right after the TDC mark.. doesn't that pretty much prove that it's right on the money?
So basically you're saying I need to find me a tachometer?
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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Yes, you need a tachometer. Either install one in the car or look for a tach / dwell meter, which is a diagnostic and tuning tool.
Feeling for top dead center is not accurate enough. Because of the geometry involved between the crank, rod, and piston, the piston stays at or very near tdc for a small amount of time. By the time you feel the piston move, the crank has turned at least a few degrees. What you have done is determined that it is in the ballpark, probably within 5 or 10 degrees but when you are trying to track down a problem like the one you are having, that can make all of the difference. Plus, as I said, the materials used to assemble the damper deteriorate. Even if it is indicating exactly TDC, it is time to replace it or have it rebuilt if it is original or of unknown age.
Which distributor is it? Vacuum only Load-O-Matic, or mechanical and vacuum advance? If mechanical and vacuum, then advance can be at play if the idle speed is too high, even if the vacuum portion is disconnected.
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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It is hard to believe that engine started with all that initial advance. Are you sure no 1 plug wire didn't get crossed with another wire? You need to do a few basics like a compression test to see if timing chain jumped a mile, and bring mark up to TDC and see if the rotor is pointing to terminal 1 or 6 on the distributor cap. An original 55 distributor has a full vacuum advance mechanism only, no mechanical. I have the manual and it shows that it can provide up to 29-32 deg. advance added to the initial timing. The vacuum diaphragm is very sensitive it only take 1.75 in's of vacuum for full advance so it would be a good idea to measure the vacuum going to the diaphragm.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (4/22/2017)
Which distributor is it? Vacuum only Load-O-Matic, or mechanical and vacuum advance? If mechanical and vacuum, then advance can be at play if the idle speed is too high, even if the vacuum portion is disconnected.
I'm pretty certain it's Load-O-Matic, isn't that all that was originally offered like Sandbird said? here's a pic of it:
These were taken in 2013:
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (4/22/2017)
Another thing that could be happening is the advance springs are weak or have broken, allowing full advance right from idle. This is easy to check.
Sandbird (4/22/2017)
Are you sure no 1 plug wire didn't get crossed with another wire? You need to do a few basics like a compression test to see if timing chain jumped a mile, and bring mark up to TDC and see if the rotor is pointing to terminal 1 or 6 on the distributor cap.
I will check both of these things. Thanks guys.
So I've never used a dwell meter before (forgive me I'm only 28 lol) but based on what I read tonight it measures the amount of time between when the points are fully open and when they're closed. So it makes sense to me it could calculate the RPM of the engine. You also want to get a steady reading, that indicates the points are opening and closing the same amount of time on every face of the cam-lobe. SO, that brings me to the final question. WHAT is the proper normal dwell number for the 272 Yblock?
Also Charlie. So you suggest changing the entire damper pulley right? I'm assuming you use a normal pulley puller tool? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q42meP_LOV0/maxresdefault.jpg Is the shaft it rides on keyed or do you have to make sure you put the new pulley on with the timing marks in the right place on your own? I'm assuming the proper procedure would be to find top dead center then when you put the new damper on and then just make sure it goes on with the 0 mark under the timing tab. Right?
What IS the most accurate way to find TDC on cylinder #1? I heard the rope trick but I don't really follow how that method works.
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By ian57tbird - 7 Years Ago
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The damper has a keyway and there is a key in the crank so it can only go on one way. Yes that is the type of puller to use. I would strongly suggest washers under the bolts, unlike what is shown in the picture.
Someone else will have to jump in with accurately finding TDC with the head on, I have no ideas.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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That looks like an original Load-a-Matic dist. First check that the advance unit is working, rev the engine while watching the timing with the light to see if it advances. Dwell should be 26-28 degrees.
It's almost impossible to find TDC with the heads on, hope for the best and test drive it. New dampeners aren't readily available, you might get on from John Mummert, I got mine from Falcon Global but they no longer list them, these are Australian made and you are looking at a $200 part. There are a few companies that rebuild them.
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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Load-O-Matic may have been the original on your car but the later mechanical distributor directly interchanges. After more than 60 years for many of these vehicles, anything could have been done so I don't assume and ask.
Since that is a Load-O-Matic, the next question is which carburetor are you using?
You can use a piston stop. Turn the crank until it stops. Mark the damper. Turn the crank in the opposite direction until it stops. Mark the damper. TDC will be in the middle of the two marks. That is the most accurate way with the heads still on.
There is also a damper installation tool. You will need one with an adapter for 9/16-18 threads (same as the damper bolt).
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By 2721955meteor - 7 Years Ago
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your dist is a load ematic(the tell tale is the large vacumediaphram)from my exp with the55ford(metior)to get decent go lots of initial is in order. do it by ear with say mid grade fuel when you hit the throtel hard should be only small ping.with vacume line hooked up.i would not change the dampner, just mark it when you are happey with overall performance.Like others say be sure you have correct 3 bolt 2v carb. these dist where not the best,but with some patience they will do fine
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Dwell should be 26-28 degrees.
It's almost impossible to find TDC with the heads on, hope for the best and test drive it. New dampeners aren't readily available, you might get on from John Mummert, I got mine from Falcon Global but they no longer list them, these are Australian made and you are looking at a $200 part. There are a few companies that rebuild them.[/quote]
Thank you, there's also a guy I know Big M who might have one. I'll think about it.
Load-O-Matic may have been the original on your car but the later mechanical distributor directly interchanges. After more than 60 years for many of these vehicles, anything could have been done so I don't assume and ask.
And that makes total sense man, I totally see where you're coming from there. I'm silly to assume that's all original equipment. But you know, sometimes when you see the amount of wear on something you kinda get the impression it's original.
Since that is a Load-O-Matic, the next question is which carburetor are you using?
Like others say be sure you have correct 3 bolt 2v carb. these dist where not the best,but with some patience they will do fine
Well this might actually be interesting to you guys. I know the 2 barrel distributors were what were usually on the 272 from other people's engines I've seen. My car actually came with the 4 barrel Holley 4000 on it. The explanation I think is this: The car's first owner was a doctor who made home visits, it was his work car. I believe I read somewhere that they put 4-barrels on cars used by doctors and the like.. I guess to give them the extra get up and go in emergencies.
Like I said earlier, I just got the carburetor rebuilt last year by Carburetors and More.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVPMieHe_7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYKo7_dKML0
your dist is a load ematic(the tell tale is the large vacumediaphram)from my exp with the55ford(metior)to get decent go lots of initial is in order. do it by ear with say mid grade fuel when you hit the throtel hard should be only small ping.with vacume
Yeah that's what I was thinking of doing. Advancing it a little at a time, locking it down, putting it in gear and see how reacts to acceloration. Repeat until acceloration is smooth enough.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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Thats the correct carb to provide the correct vacuum signal for the LOD distributor. Have you checked to see if the timing is advancing? If you aren't getting advance above idle speed it will never run right and over heat! The vacuum advance unit is one of the most important parts of that type distributor. Just advancing the timing until it runs better is just a band aid, and a bad one..
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Okay I've got some big information. I'm uploading about 4 videos which I'll be able to have up by late this evening.
I was initially checking my advance first, I had the vacuum hooked to the distributor. When I noticed that at idle it had a higher advance I'd say about 15o -20o. I figured the distributor was looser then I thought since it wasn't locked down maybe it turned a bit in the drive yesterday. But then when I disconnected the vacuum to do another initial timing adjustment the timing was back to where I left it at about 6o - 8o advance. Also with the vacuum advance hooked up, there would be no advance when accelerating the engine. So it sounds to me like you guys are right, that the vacuum advance is running all the time. I also noticed with the vacuum plugged into the distributor, that in PARK the advance would be 15o - 20o advanced at idle, but in DRIVE the advance would only be about 10o.. but again that makes since right? The engine is doing higher RPMS in Park.
I then popped the cap off the distributor to look inside. I noticed I could turn the plate inside the distributor very easily and the primary spring was literally wobbling on the posts.
So it sounds like I need new springs right?
I'll ge those videos up ASAP tonight.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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You may be getting a vacuum signal to the distributor if the idle is set to high..
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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hmmm..
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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Here are the videos:
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By Sandbird - 7 Years Ago
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Dude,
Before you start changing springs you might want to squirt something like choke cleaner at the center of the breaker plate while working it back and forth. Gum builds up over a period of time and makes it difficult for them to rotate and can cause them to stick. Also don't overlook the spark control valve on your carburetor, it affects the vacuum going to the distributor.
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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So I messed with my carburetor trying to get the idle lowered. I barely felt like I was able to lower it hardly at all before I basically lowered the idle screw as low as it could possibly be lowered. (that is the screw, and the bolt on the throttle that hits the stopper plate.)
Now either I did mange to get the idle lowered, or it's because I locked down the distributor. But either way the engine seems to be running and accelorating normally now.
I went on a 30 mile drive, a huge circle around town. Half of it was highway, the other half was stop and go. The best thing though, the engine has stopped overheating!!! Finally after all this time it was well.. the timing all along. In fact my guage is showing it wanting to hover around 176 most of the time.. under where it should be by a little bit! lol. It really is fricken awesome.
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By 57RancheroJim - 7 Years Ago
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Thats great news!!!
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By charliemccraney - 7 Years Ago
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Sweet! Now you can show your friend how to check the timing. 
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By Half-dude - 7 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (4/26/2017)
Sweet! Now you can show your friend how to check the timing.
lol yeah.. me smart. XD
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