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By Half-dude - 9 Years Ago
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Hey guys,
I'm the worst at figuring out electrical issues over anything else. But in the case of the 55' I do have a basic understanding of how the generator and regulator work. Still though I'm at kind of a loss, I also don't really know how to use a multi-meter that much so testing is kind if beyond my knowledge. But maybe describing the situation will make it obvious to someone who knows more about power systems then I do.
When driving down the road with the headlights on, that is headlights and the internal dash illumination, the yellow GEN discharge light will come on after a short period. At first and for most of the time it's so dim that it's annoyingly hard to tell weather or not it's really on or just catching some of the glow from the surrounding back-lighting. The only way to be sure is to turn off the lights for a moment. Sometimes it isn't really on and sometimes it is so the issue must come and go I suppose. But after prolonged driving the light will get brighter and more obvious.
Here's where it seems to be opposite then what you'd expect. Rather then coming on at idle then fading out when you increase RPMs, for me it's opposite. Running the engine at speed will bring the light on and it'll go out when stopped or at least dim considerably. I was hoping that this was just a quirk of old mechanics that maybe it was normal for the GEN light to be on very dimly while the headlights are on.. being a 6 volt car and all.
But the other night, by the time we got home the light had gotten pretty bright and I noticed while pulling into the driveway that the headlights and interior lights had dimmed to an almost minuscule level. It was such a slow and subtle dimming I hadn't noticed till we pulled into the house.
So obviously the battery IS gradually discharging without a chance to charge is seems.
This issue only happens when the headlights are switched on though, while driving in the day things are fine. What I'm lead to believe is that the generator is only supplying JUST enough to run the car with no accessories, that or the regulator is preventing it.
The Generator has been rebuilt and bench tested, and the Regulator is brand new and a modern model bought from an auto-parts store. I've also polarized the generator since last time the battery was connected to the car. Though I have had a battery tender hooked up to the car since then due to the battery going dead from prolonged (one or two week) sitting in the past.
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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I don't have an answer for you and wish I did as I have had a similar problem for the past 5-6 years, it just started one day after working normally for all the years previous and that I haven't been able to resolve. Mine is a 12V system on my 1960 truck but the problem is the same. I'm usually pretty good at electrical but this has had me stumped, it has never caused a problem, it's just annoying seeing the GEN light lit dimly at higher rpms. It drove me crazy on a recent trip going from Calif across Arizona headed to New Mexico, drove six hours straight at night with the air conditioning on but it never caused a problem, ended up doing 2100 miles on that trip in 100+ temps. I knew it was charging, at idle the lights were a little dimmer and you could hear the air conditioning fan slow down, thats pretty normal and as soon as the rpm increased lights got brighter and fan sped up. Over the past few years I have changed generators, regulators, battery, redone all the grounds, done all the electrical test and I haven't found the problem yet. I've never had a battery issue, it can sit for a month or two at times and cranks right over.. Hopefully someone will have some insight as to what causes this.
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By Sanddoc - 9 Years Ago
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55 6v positive ground...First switch to a neg ground. I would suggest also switching to a 12v system. that being said
using a multi meter is easy, buy one from Harbor Freight, $4 set it on DC... make sure it turns on and you can see the numerals.
If you can have someone help you, start the car, place the Red lead on the cars engine and the Black lead on the Gen field.
Remember the car is positive ground.
You should get a voltage of about 6 to 8v at idle, now speed up the RPM and check the reading, you should be up at 8v steady.
Now take the Red lead and place it on a clean place on the block, and the Black lead on the Voltage Regulator (VR)
and take a reading at idle then at a higher RPM. Finally check the battery, check voltage at both idle and higher RPM. This will
give you the base for your car.
VR of the period are mechanical, and they have adjustment to them... taking off the cover you will see the adjustments but you need
a service manual or some more knowledge then I have to adjust them.
At the beginning I recommended that you switch to a Neg ground system.. It was found that a positive system drains the battery fast
and also corrodes more then a Neg ground.
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/polarity.html
If you drive the car a lot, I would really suggest a switch to 12v Neg..
http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/6v-to-12v.html
But I do understand the wish to keep a car "original"
You can also help your electrical by using a solenoid on the headlights. This takes the amps out of the headlight switch
and puts them right at the headlights, remember unless you've done a new wiring harness that wire and switch is 60 yo
http://www.allpar.com/fix/electrical/headlights/index.php
All the best
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By DANIEL TINDER - 9 Years Ago
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[quote][b]Sanddoc (10/24/2016) It was found that a positive system drains the battery fast
and also corrodes more then a Neg ground.
Sanddoc, I would be interested in your source for that claim, as my experience has been just the opposite. I had also heard that those were the reasons for Henry's obsession for retaining positive ground, and thus FoMoCo's delay in adopting neg. grd. in the face of otherwise universal industry (GM, etc.) adoption. My ignition points last (seemingly) forever, and all my body ground connections stay clean. The battery issue is not so clear though, since the mysteries of regulator service/adjustment can so easily be ignored by plugging into a smart charger occasionally while the car is garaged. My current battery is 9 years old and always starts the car without issue.
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By Lou - 9 Years Ago
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Years ago had the same problem with my 56 Victoria, I put new brushes in the generator problem went away.
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By Kahuna - 9 Years Ago
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I think Lou has the answer.
A generator may test just fine at an auto parts store, but in actuality, may not be doing the job.
I'd do the brushes first thing. Cheap & easy
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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57 Jim: I can't diagnose your apparent problems, however from your post, the issue of heavy load causing dimming at idle, is normal with generators. It's one of reasons that they were replaced by alternators some years ago, especially with the myriad of accessories on modern vehicles, a generator just won't supply enough voltage at idle to keep up.
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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PF Arcand (10/25/2016)
57 Jim: I can't diagnose your apparent problems, however from your post, the issue of heavy load causing dimming at idle, is normal with generators. It's one of reasons that they were replaced by alternators some years ago, especially with the myriad of accessories on modern vehicles, a generator just won't supply enough voltage at idle to keep up. Thank you, I think I stated in my post that the dimming at idle is normal, I understand that. What I forgot to add was that the generator idiot light comes on dimly at higher rpm's even in the day time with no load? It's like there is 1-2 volts going through it. I've changed generators, changed brushes, changed brush springs, even changed to an earlier style end plate that has the different type brush holder and springs..
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By Half-dude - 9 Years Ago
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What a mysterious issue!
I've had that generator in the shop twice. It wasn't working at all the first time, had it rebuilt and it still wasn't working, brought it back and then it worked after that.. at least...
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By Lou - 9 Years Ago
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Put in a different battery and see if the problem goes away, your battery may be on the way out, also check the regulator.
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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The feedback to the indicator light might be a result of poor grounds, or not, but check all body to engine & chassis grounds just to be sure.. no cost just time.
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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That was one of my first thoughts, checked a half dozen times, replaced all grounds etc, no luck.. I'm baffled, but since it doesn't cause any problems I'll just live with it..
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By Half-dude - 9 Years Ago
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: / I don't even know where all the grounds are..
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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The problem is there aren't many, usually just two, battery to block, block to body. I always add extra to body and frame. Then all the components like voltage regulator, lights, accessories, gauges etc depend on a good body ground.
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By Half-dude - 9 Years Ago
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Doesn't the regulator ground through the case?
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By 57RancheroJim - 9 Years Ago
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Half-dude (10/27/2016)
Doesn't the regulator ground through the case? Yes, case is grounded to body and through wire to generator, but I'm not sure how that relates as yours is 6V positive ground. Sorry, it's been too long ago I worked on positive grounds
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By chiggerfarmer - 9 Years Ago
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About 30 years ago I had a 54 that did that very thing. Gen light would come on very dim, increasing with engine speed. The car also had hard starting problems and since I suffered from the short patience of youth and wished it to start like new cars, I changed to 12V but instead of alternator I used 12V generator. It cured starting problem and worked fine but still had the odd generator indicator light problem. I sold the car to a gentleman that wanted it original and changed everything back to 6V positive ground. When I asked about the starting problem, he said that he found a malfunctioning ignition switch, and when he replaced it there was no more starting problem or generator light problem. Now, I am merely telling the story for what it's worth, but I wondered if maybe there could be truth there? Could an electrical path form inside a worn ignition switch that allowed this to happen?
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By Half-dude - 9 Years Ago
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Dang, now I love stories like that. For what I know the ignition switch is still original in my car like most things. Wouldn't be surmised if it's work over 60 years. My car also has a worn neutral safety switch gotta keep shifting into neutral and fiddle with the shifter to get her to start.
Wish I knew more about electrical systems, I have no idea if the ignition switch could do that. Anyone else know? Weird that it'd cause hard starts. Think it maybe limits the power to the plugs if its worn?
Really wish I had an Ammeter for the car but it's hard to find one that goes down to 6v. Plus not sure if I know how to hook it up.
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By PF Arcand - 9 Years Ago
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Re the ammeter mentioned, they are common at swap meets, but It measures current, not Voltage.
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By Half-dude - 8 Years Ago
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So I'm going to my first car show of the year this weekend, it's going to be in the evening and dark when I'm driving back.
I would love to have something to try to try and get this issue fixed. What is exactly happening electronically/mechanically that makes the GEN light come on? If I understood the operation I would better be able to troubleshoot things.
It doesn't come on in a binary way off one minute on the next. It very very slowly illuminates so soon you don't even realize till it's bright and concerning. That's one of the irritating things about it because when you're expecting it you find yourself paranoid and trying to check the guage because the illumination of the rest of the cluster bleeds through to the gen light and makes it LOOK illuminate so I keep turning my lights off momentarily to check if it's on.
Does this gauge ultimately connect to somewhere on the generator itself, the regulator box, or the battery side of the solenoid?
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By miker - 8 Years Ago
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It's been a long time since my bird was original, with 6v positive ground. But bear with me. The gen light is hooked between the output and the battery on an alternator. So, if the alt makes more voltage than the battery, it goes off. It also provides the "exciter" circuit to cause the alternator to charge on start up, which is why some 1 wire alternators don't charge until they've been reved, and the residual magnetism "excites" them.
A generator light works the same way, but I don't really remember if it comes off the output or something on the regulator. On old generator cars, the light would glow dim at idle, brighter if the heater or something was on. The lack of output (not to mention increased loads, traffic, cost, etc.) was why they went to the alternators in the first place.
Hopefully, someone here with more DC experience will chime in, my career was with AC. But anything that causes the current flow to go from the generator to the battery will start the light glowing, and eventually, bright. At idle, maybe expected. At speed, with the heater, lights, etc. it's a sign the generator isn't making its full output, or enough for the loads.
When I bought my bird back in 1999, my friend took me up, we put a new battery in, stopped for gas, and made a 70 mile drive home. January, and a forecast of snow, so it was cold and I had the heater on. I told him to go on home when I got off the 405, 10 miles from home. He followed me to the driveway. I asked why and he said "Mike, you couldn't see it, but the tailights where almost out before the voltage regulator kicked in and recharged the battery. I was afraid it wouldn't, and 3 miles after that it the car would quit."
In traffic and lit up roads, I didn't see the headlights going dim. I was busy driving a car that wandered all over and in traffic at 70.
I suspect you have a similar problem, maybe a ground, maybe regulator slightly out of spec. Hopefully someone else will chime in with more info.
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By DryLakesRacer - 8 Years Ago
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I'm with Lou. Take it off clean the commutator. I like chucking up in my drill press, spin it slow using a piece of sand paper ( not Emory) hold a strip on the copper. Clean the contact side of the brushes with the sand paper too. You may not need to change them if they are long enough. Makes sure the springs snap down on them.
It just sounds like a resistance problem to me. Does you gen still have the protector ring /shield not. Without it dirt, brush carbon, etc gums it up.
The faster it spins the worse it will work. Short brushes had the same problem.
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