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By 56Roger - 8 Years Ago
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Here is a link to independent oil test results done by a mechanical engineer. Very interesting stuff. And a lot of it.
And thanks to Cliff for passing it along. The 25 pages Cliff talks about are only a fraction of the total information on the site.
If you read carefully I think you will come away with an improved understanding of what is going on in that lovely stuff called oil. I know I did. There are no single one size fits all answers as so many people seem to think. Those folks will argue till the end why they are right and everyone else is wrong. But everyone has their own set of conditions that need to be satisfied. The data is there to give you the answer you need for the application you have. For (an extreme) example a number of the top rated oils are race only, not intended for street use. The numbers are fantastic and some people can really take advantage of what the oil can do. But for most people those oils would not be the right thing to be using, in fact they would be the wrong thing.
My point is that a whole bunch of people can be "right", given the conditions in which they are operating. Doesn't mean the people with a different set of conditions are "wrong". As long as you know what the reality of the actual conditions are and you've made an informed choice to meet them, then you are "right". You might even be able to make a choice that gives you what you need and saves money too.
A couple of the higher rated oils were actually cheap brands. Try telling Joe Fancypants he should quit using his top brand name (read expensive) oil in his hotshot car and switch to the cheap stuff because not only is it cheaper it might be significantly better than the high dollar brand name stuff he's been using. Get ready for an argument. But the testing numbers are right there to see for yourself. A good number of the big brand names (more $) have products that just aren't that great.
Another interesting thing is that there are two additives that actually do work as advertised...sometimes. In some oils they make for a big improvement, some not so much and in some they may even be detrimental. I'm going to be checking further into that.
The blog is actively updated, seems like monthly. The last update was this past weekend. Click on the "follow" button in the lower right corner for more information concerning the blog.
There are also sections on other topics besides oil.
Thanks again to Cliff. (meteor)
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By 2721955meteor - 8 Years Ago
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hard to argue facts but most shy away from facts,so many to this day disregard oil analysis,tho it saved users in heavey i equipment world thousands of $ in repairs and lost tome
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By Ted - 8 Years Ago
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Roger. Thanks for reposting the link.
This testing has been around for quite awhile as I’ve an older copy of it in my files. In performing a quick search on the YBF forums, I found at least two older threads referencing that particular oil testing. The current read is now much longer and a lot of that is simply accolades preceding the actual test results. There is a lot of fluff around the actual test results which makes it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. The oil test results are good stuff and pretty much jives with the oil testing I was involved with in the early Seventies. Back then too much zinc in the oil was referred to as ‘Zinc overloading’ and much of that information is still pertinent today. I’m in total agreement with the author in that too much emphasis is placed on the zinc/phosphorus amount and not enough placed on the quality of the oil (wear factors). Couldn't find the authors name now anywhere in the post which does tend to take some of the credibility away from the test results.
It’s tough to make a blanket statement about anything without taking all variables into account. Engine oil is no exception. Unfortunately when testing for diesel fuel residuals in the oil, the statistical bell curve ends up with several peaks instead of the normal ‘one peak’ bell curve if lumping all diesel engines into one group. There are several variables here including oil change intervals, whether it is used for short haul or long haul driving, and the hours on the engine. The number of pickups with diesel engines now on the road simply clouds the issue if grouped with the larger trucks. With the increasing number of diesel pickups on the road, there has been a shift in the amount of fuel residuals in the oil and that’s been traced to oil change intervals greatly exceeding the manufacturers’ recommendations for that.
When it comes to oil, there is one adage that comes to mind. Good advertising sells the worst of products while poor marketing can be the downfall of the best.
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By 62bigwindow - 8 Years Ago
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What oil would you recommend Ted? I have to admit researching the right oil is right up there with looking for the best tire to run. Tim recommends Bradd Penn in the engines he builds. But looking at the results it may not be the best.
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By 2721955meteor - 8 Years Ago
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62bigwindow (9/23/2016)
What oil would you recommend Ted? I have to admit researching the right oil is right up there with looking for the best tire to run. Tim recommends Bradd Penn in the engines he builds. But looking at the results it may not be the best.
look at5/30 quaker state ultimate durability api sn =95,920 psi zink877ppm phos921ppm molet=72ppm
or castrol gtx convention apisn=95,543psi zink tdb phos=tdb moley= tdb if you need more try rodger he has a big list.if you look at race oils not much better than the inexpensive stuff oil marketing is based on b/// sh'''' as much as facts
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By 2721955meteor - 8 Years Ago
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regarding teds info re diesel engines,the big chang in there oils needs was due to supper low sulphur fuels legislated and emission changes which forced makers to resurculate exhaust to eliminate certain contaminates, while decreasing fuel consumption 16 to25%and as well increase repair costs substantial amounts. pickup engines are no different to other on highway diesel fueled non spark ignition engines, with 2 exceptions,all made in north america pickups have no linners
and 50% have bin altered with computer alterations and over fueled and meet no emission standards.especially in canada .diesel pickups that very seldom work are the most problems and will never pay back the extra cost of purchase as well as high service cost.the ones used as designed are great
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By Ted - 8 Years Ago
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62bigwindow (9/23/2016)
What oil would you recommend Ted? I have to admit researching the right oil is right up there with looking for the best tire to run. Tim recommends Brad Penn in the engines he builds. But looking at the results it may not be the best.
Most gasoline engines at this shop are broken in using conventional grade Valvoline oil. The bearing clearances dictates the viscosity to use but most Y builds are built such that they are broken in with 10W-40 weight. I will avoid oils that have less than 30W in their weight classification on those engines using a flat tappet camshaft.
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By 62bigwindow - 8 Years Ago
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So the whole "must have zinc for vintage engines " is a load of bull? I have to confess I couldn't get through the article. It's much to wordy and lengthy to hold my attention. So based on what I understand any conventional oil with a rating of 40w is fine for our y blocks?
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By ian57tbird - 8 Years Ago
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I think all should keep in mind that anything posted on the internet is up for question.
I did read the post and it came across to me more like someone giving a high pressure sales pitch the way he constantly repeated how he was so wright and others were so wrong. Normally a true professional would state their argument and the facts to support it, not continually repeat over and over again how wonderful they are.
I don't know enough to say if he is wright or wrong, and I'm sure much of it is true. By the way it was written makes me question its validity.
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By ian57tbird - 8 Years Ago
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Claims many credentials but unless I missed it there was no name attached. Not normal practice for anyone making a scientific claim.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 8 Years Ago
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[b]Ted (9/24/2016) I will avoid oils that have less than 30W in their weight classification on those engines using a flat tappet camshaft.
Interesting. The article makes the argument that viscosity has no relation to 'wear protection capability', and the thickness of the oil film is irrelevant. I assume ultra low viscosity might drain out of the bearing spaces faster than the pump could replace it, or viscosity that was too high might prevent large clearances from being quickly filled (?), but I fail to see the relevance re: solid lifter/flat tappet cam lobes lubricated with crank spray?
I was especially impressed by his attitude re: break-in oil for flat tappet engines. His point being that the tradition of rapid ring break-in has no real value, since it also means you risk wiping a cam lobe at the same time. He claims the long, complicated break-in procedure we have been taught is unnecessary if you use the best wear-tested oil & prime just before start-up.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 8 Years Ago
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[quote][b]DANIEL TINDER (9/28/2016)....I fail to see the relevance re: solid lifter/flat tappet cam lobes lubricated with crank spray?
I was especially impressed by his attitude re: break-in oil for flat tappet engines....
Never mind. I just re-read Ted's post re: lifter rotation. Higher wear break-in oil (and the need for complicated break-in procedures to protect the cam) may be dictated by the Y-Block's unique tappet design. The modern pushrod performance engines the blogger refers to (that require no special break-in, and can utilize oil from the first start with the best wear #s) don't have that limitation.
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By speedpro56 - 8 Years Ago
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Made a call to Mobil 1 and found their high rated 0W40 with 127,221 psi has 1100 ppm in zinc. This was not stated in the article and really don't know how safe it would be in a yblock but had their highest rated psi of any oil.
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By RB - 8 Years Ago
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540 rat has been staging a marathon discussion over on SpeedTalk.. He has been called out on his methodology and motives by a lot of guys who think his conclusions don't square with their beliefs.. I buy quite a bit of what he is saying. 540 rat has spent his own money testing many oils for their chemical analysis and posted results.. I actually sent him two local discount store oils that I use in my everyday stuff.. They fell mid pack on the psi test ahead of some of the big name stuff At 2.50 qt I will keep using it lol
He is very thorough in his testing methods.. Whether they are valid for a running engine is an open question.
RB
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By 62bigwindow - 8 Years Ago
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This is all real interesting but the real question is how many of us has had an engine failure related to the oil they use? I've been a member here for some time and I can't recall anyone posting "don't use brand X oil because my engine just failed because of it".
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By 62bigwindow - 8 Years Ago
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So the 20w50 racing oils are out for y block use? I was thinking about using the Valoline VR1 oil for my next oil change in that weight. I'm using Bradd Penn 20w50 right now but at $50 a oil change its a little pricey. I may try the 0w40 Mobile that Speedpro56 mentioned.
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By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
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20w50 should be fine for a Y block. It should not be needed for a fresh rebuild, though.
0w40 could be too thin.
Here is a website that allows you to compare the viscocity of an oil at given operating temperature. There can be quite a difference between similar grades. One brand of 15w40, for instance, could be thicker at a given operating temperature than another brand of 15w40 at that same temperature. You need the technical data sheet, which you can get from the oil manufacturer.
http://www.jiskoot.com/services/calculations/viscosity-temp/
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By 62bigwindow - 8 Years Ago
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I was doing some more research on this and run across a post where someone recommend mixing 10w30 with 20w50 to achieve a 15w40 oil weight. Is this a viable option? The post was about the same brand oil just different weights.
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By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
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No idea but most major brands have a 10w40 or 15w40 oil. Use that and take out the guess work.
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By speedpro56 - 8 Years Ago
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The Mobil 1 tech for what it's worth still recommended 15W50 for flat tappets with 1300 ppm zinc. It seems to me we have several options to choose from and I can't say if 0W40 is safe or not, I've never used it and from what I can find out it's relatively new even thou the article gave it the highest marks of all the oils tested.
For now I'm using Amsoil Z- Rod 10W-30 high zinc formula with 1400 ppm zinc with no issues. Applications API, SL, SJ and earlier.
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By 62bigwindow - 8 Years Ago
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I was planning to go back to Valvoline VR1. I have a limited choice in my part of town. The local parts stores only carry the popular conventional oils for the most part.
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By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
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Order it online. Amazon usually have great prices. Jegs and Summit are also good sources and sometimes have it priced better than local stores. They all offer free shipping for a certain dollar amount. And I'm sure it can be found other places.
Sometimes you can by it by the quart for less than a case. Order 6 individual quarts and they'll send a case and it will cost less than a case. Watch out for that and you can save a couple bucks more.
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By ian57tbird - 8 Years Ago
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When looking at oil technical data the VISCOSITY INDEX tells you how stable the weight is. The higher the VI number the less it will change in weight from cold starting to when the engine is at its maximum temperature. A 0w40 will have similar weight to a 15w40 at 100 degrees Celsius but will be thinner at lower temps. The 0w40 will also not thin out as much at temperatures greater than 100C/212F because it will have a greater VI than the 15w40. The further those numbers are apart the more stable the viscosity.
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By slumlord444 - 8 Years Ago
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Way too much info for me. I'm 71 and been a car guy since I was 16. Driven a lot of hard miles and abused a lot of engines. Never had an engine failure that I could directly blame on oil failure. Always went on the theory that regular oil and filter changes were much more important on the specific oil you used. Been using Wal-Mart generic conventional oil of the weight recommended by the manufacturer in my daily drivers for 30+ years with no problems. Will be using Valvoline Racing oil in my T-Bird when I break it in and thereafter. Used Wal-Mart generic 30W in my small engines for the same period. Recently switched to their 10W30 full synthetic for small engines. I'm not saying this guy doesn't know what he's doing but most of the oils he tested I've never heard of and are not available in my world.
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