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By zuburg - 9 Years Ago
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Was wondering if a Fordomatic transmission out of a 1955 Fairlane with a 292 would work in a 1956 Thunderbird?
thanks,
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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Welcome to the site.
Short answer, yes. The '55 and '56 Fordomatics are virtually identical dimension-ally. Too, the transmission extension housing are the same and both require the use of the 'Bird-only right angle drive to connect the speedometer cable.
In (?) April of '56 Ford switched from the '55 and early '56 air cooled FordoMatic to the oil cooled units.
IF you have a later production '56 'Bird, you may want to contemplate if you want to use the early air cooled unit. The torque converter and bellhousing assembly are different and need to be kept together.
Not critical, but the '56 'Bird FordoMatic is internally different than the passenger car units in '55 and '56. The passenger car tranny has a 4 disc clutch pack where the 'Bird has a 5 disc pack.
In swapping transmissions, the mechanical linkage from the driver's side of the transmission housing will need to be changed out. The '55-'57 'Bird unit is different because of the floor shifter.
Methinks you'll never detect a difference in operation between the '55 passenger car FordoMatic and a 'Bird '55 - '57 'Bird unit whether air cooled or oil cooled.
Hope this helps. 
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By zuburg - 9 Years Ago
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Thanks, very helpful. How difficult is it to change the linkage to fit the floor shift?
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By snowcone - 9 Years Ago
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Probably get all your answers here
http://www.network54.com/Forum/260730
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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Zuburg: Hmmmm... Consider not swapping the '56 'Bird transmission case linkage to the '55 transmission you propose to use. Left intact, the 'Bird transmission has core value to 'Bird enthusiasts. The 'Bird transmission is different that standard '55, '56, and '57 passenger car units. IF the original FoMoCo tag is off the transmission it is still recognizable for what it is by its linkage arms AND by a hex plug located on the driver's side rear face of the transmission case, just above the oil pan, and adjacent to where the transmission rear extension housing is attached. Only the '56 & '57 'Birds, '56 & '57 Ford 312 station wagons, and '57 Ford 312 engines with dual quads and superchargers used this automatic transmission with its 5 disc clutch pack and the hex plug on the rear of the trans case that I described above.
A seller on eBay has been advertising a reproduction of the valve body control arm you need seemingly for months. See the link below to see what you need to install in place of the arm you presently have on your '55 transmission to have the valve body mechanically mate with the '55-'57 'Bird floor shifter.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350607783506?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I THINK that the transmission kickdown lever adjacent to the valve body linkage arm (shown in the link above) is the same as the passenger car unit because it is controlled by a rod from the bell crank mounted on the rear of the engine intake manifold... Too, although I've seen the one transmission lever offered as a reproduction, I have not seen the kickdown lever listed.
Hope this helps.
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By zuburg - 9 Years Ago
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Thanks,
I'm new to all this, and have seen many things are interchangeable on these Y-blocks and was just wondering if the tranny from the Fairlane was equivalent to be a cheaper alternative to rebuilding what I have. I would prefer to keep what I have, assuming it is a T-bird tranny. I'm still discovering just what I have on this bird. I need to jack it up and crawl under it to try and identify the transmission. It leaks so bad, not looking forward to doing that. I likely will have it rebuilt unless I can be convinced I can do it, or get some help locally. I doubt I have the skill to do it. Was hoping a good working used one would either avoid or defer the rebuild.
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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There's no harm in moving to the '55 unit. IF it also is 'vintage' however, and IF it has been sitting for too long, installing it may yield the same leaks after installation that you're presently struggling with now. That would be frustrating...!
To change transmissions on the 'Bird, I would recommend that you remove the engine and transmission as one assembly. Removing the transmission from under the 'Bird is impossible due to the 'X' in the frame... I like to put the engine and trans back in as one assembly, too.
Leaking fluids with mechanical stuff can be caused by too many things. Common sources of transmission leaks with the FordoMatic transmissions include:
- oil pan gaskets...
- front seal that contacts the torque converter hub (neoprene rubber seal often gets hard with heat and time and therefore loses it's sealing ability)...
- the torque converter hub may be worn and need to be replaced...
- IF it's an air cooled transmission, the torque converter is aluminum with fins on the outer diameter, AND is of two piece design. The seal that seals the two sections together is a wonderful source for a leak. :{
- IF it's an oil cooled transmission, the torque converter located between the transmission and the engine is steel and is of one piece design. Yeah, it has two sections, BUT they're welded together to make one piece that cannot be separated or leak like the air cooled units can... Oil cooled FordoMatics have two steel lines that travel from the transmission case forward along the passenger side of the engine to the bottom tank of the radiator where they connect to a tank within the bottom tank of the radiator.
- the O-ring seals on the transmission valve body mechanical linkage can succumb to age as well, causing fluid leakage...
- a worn front pump on the transmission... result is oil draining back from the torque converter, overfilling the transmission, causing leakage from the case
- Yes, there are other possibles, BUT these are good initial things to check...
The ID tag for your transmission was originally elliptical in shape, red paint dominated the surface, and it had two 'rivets' securing it to the case on the driver's side adjacent to the valve body shifter lever, just above the oil pan. The valve body shifter lever has a single rod going rearward to the floor shifter adjacent to the transmission aluminum extension housing. IF the transmission has been rebuilt previously, the riveted tag may have been lost OR the identifying information on it may have been painted over OR all of the original paint removed when the case was cleaned in a parts washer.
IF the original tag is gone or not readable, look to see IF the rod from the 'Bird floor shifter appears to be 'normally' connected to the valve body shift arm (see the previous link for a picture of a correctly shaped 'Bird application linkage arm). IF the shifter linkage looks okay, check to see if you can locate the hex plug on the drivers side rear of the transmission case. IF there is a bunch of dirt and grease in that area, do some scraping with a straight blade screwdriver. The plug has a hex head and will stick out slightly from the trans case. It's not large in diameter, though, and can be easily missed. Again, it is just above the oil pan and adjacent to the rear aluminum extension housing where it mounts to the rear of the trans case.
Don't hesitate to write IF you have questions. I've been there, too...
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By 314 - 9 Years Ago
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i thought the tbird used a mercury trans.does the tbird have a small rear shaft like ford.
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By zuburg - 9 Years Ago
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Wow. Sounds like if I go to all the trouble to pull the engine and transmission, it might be worth it to have someone who knows what they are doing rebuild it. I got a quote from one transmission shop of $800 if I bring them the transmission. I also got an estimate from an experienced T-bird restorer for $1200. To give you some more background, I just recently purchased this bird and was told it had a non-original 292. I h2ave since found it has an old 239 and I'm finding out it has some issues, so rather than invest any money to fix it, I'm looking at doing an engine swap to a nice running 292. Of course it would make sense to do that at the same time as rebuilding the tranny.
What would you recommend on my engine options? I found I can buy a remanufactured 292 long block for $2,000. I also found a running Thunderbird 292 currenlty installed in a street rod that the owner is willing to sell. I don't know the price yet on the running engine, but expect it will be about the same or just slightly less. I'm leaning to the running complete Thunderbird engine.
thanks,
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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Zuburg: I wish you lived closer. Raleigh, NC is a ways away...
We need to equip you with information so that you can KNOW for your own peace of mind what you're working with. I'm uncomfortable IF a previous owner went the route of substituting a '54 239 cubic inch y-block as a replacement for the original 292 or 312 engine. It begs the question, 'What-else did they change?'
'56 'Birds came equipped with two different engine options.
- IF you opted for the 292 engine it only came with the three speed standard transmission. There's no ands-ifs-or-buts about that.
-IF you opted for the 312 engine it was available with a manual shift three speed w/ overdrive (this was a Borg Warner T-85 with an R-11 overdrive unit) OR the FordoMatic automatic transmission
Below is a link to one of the numerous technical pages provided by John Mummert. Click the link below to open John's page on Ford y-block engine block casting numbers. On that page he indicates where to look for the numbers, what the applications were (FoMoCo cars, trucks), and what model years they were originally supplied in... Note: some engine block casting numbers could have been built as 292 or 312 engines! We'll work through that one later...
http://ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm
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With 60 year old engine assemblies, more-often-than-you-might think, engine components have gotten swapped around over time. One of the things we want to determine is what cylinder heads you've got on your current engine or on an engine you might consider buying. Too, whatever heads you've got or someone else has on an engine you're considering, are they a matched set? It's AMAZING the number of cylinder head variations that Ford utilized between 1954 and 1964 when they stopped using the y-block in car applications. Ideally, we want cylinder heads that have the same combustion chamber shapes and volumes, and the same size intake valves to optimize engine performance.
Click the link below to access another of John Mummert's technical pages located on his web site. This link will give you the casting ID for virtually all of the different cylinder heads FoMoCo used on the different y-block engine applications from '54 - '64. Determine what you've got or are considering purchasing.
http://ford-y-block.com/cylinderheadchart.htm
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Last (for now), see IF the tag is on the Fordomatic transmission that you presently have in your '56 'Bird. IF it is, see if you can read the identification code on the tag. IF not, revisit my earlier information for taking stock of whether you've got the original '56 Fordomatic or something else. The valve body shift arm and the hexagon head plug on the driver's side rear of the transmission case is what you need to look at.. Being a '56 'Bird, it could have either an air cooled or oil cooled Fordomatic. Either of the FordoMatics originally installed in the '56 'Birds had the 5 disc clutch pack.
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A good running used 292 engine may be a good way to go to get you on the road with your 'Bird...
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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314 (10/9/2015)
i thought the tbird used a mercury trans.does the tbird have a small rear shaft like ford.
314: My understanding is that 292 equipped '55, and 312 equipped '56, and '57 Mercs with either standard three speed or three speed with overdrive transmissions (Borg Warner T-85s) OR MercoMatics used a 16 spline output shaft. These were large diameter output shafts! My surprise is that the standard trans and the automatic used the same driveshaft yoke for these three years of Mercury y-block applications.
All of the '55, '56, and '57 Birds with FordoMatic that I've worked with have had the same small diameter output shafts that I've also seen in Ford passenger cars and station wagons of that same vintage...
Hope this helps.
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By zuburg - 9 Years Ago
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I understand. According to the Patent Plate on the car, it originally came with a 292 and a 3 speed transmission. The guy I bought the car from claimed it was a 292 and said that was what he was told when he bought it. I find that hard to believe since he owned it for 23 years. He knew it wasn't the original engine. Since a PO installed the 239, I have no idea where the Fordomatic came from. I will try to identify what it is. I have a lead on a 1956 Thunderbird 292 just an hour away that is currently installed in a '37 Ford street rod. It has 3 deuces and a worked up cam but he has the 1956 Thunderbird intake manifold for it. It is a strong running engine according to owner. He will take me for a ride in the rod to see how the engine runs before I buy it. W20hat do you think would be a fair price for a complete running T-bird engine? I know I can buy a completely remanufactured 292 long block for $2,000.
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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Zuburg: Ideally, the owner of the street rod is a motor head and understands and appreciates your position as a guy looking for a good used engine. If he does, he won't be offended by your need to determine the condition of what he's offering to sell you.
Going for a ride in the '37 is a good starter. Pay particular attention to the oil pressure gauge readings when the engine starts up cold and what it reads at normal operating temperature. Note the oil pressure gauge readings at idle and when going down the road at different engine operating speeds up to 50 mph. Listen to the sound of the engine exhaust pipe(s) at idle; listen for an errant change in sound at idle. IF the engine seems to run okay from your test drive, I'd work with the owner to arrange to have a mechanic do further diagnostic testing on the engine for you.
In your circumstance, I'd turn to an auto repair shop you're familiar with or one recommended to you for engine diagnostic work. You need an experienced tech. that has the equipment and knowledge to do a vacuum, compression, and cylinder leak down test on the engine you're considering buying. This testing will tell the condition of the piston rings and valves. The oil pressure readings you gathered from your ride will depict the condition of the engine crankshaft and connecting rod bearings.
Since the owner of the '37 is an hour away from you, and since the car is unique, you may need to have the tech you employ travel to the owner's residence to do the testing on site.
All of what I'm suggesting you have done is to determine the condition of the engine which relates to what it's worth. Last November I had a knowledgeable car guy offer to sell me a used '56 Merc engine he's been sitting on for $1,000. His selling point to me was that it needed nothing (guaranteed!) and the rebuild I was contemplating on another engine was going to exceed 2K in my machining costs, replacement parts, and gaskets. IF I were in your circumstance, the offer of a complete, needs nothing, never rebuilt 312 engine, from someone I know personally, would appeal.
IF the previous owner converted your '56 'Bird from standard trans. to Fordomatic, it's likely that you've got a passenger car Fordomatic. When I did this years ago on a '57 'Bird, I fabricated a bracket to weld to the passenger car valve body control lever to permit connecting the 'Bird shift rod. The trans I used was out of a '57 292 equipped station wagon. The transmission kickdown lever required no modification to work properly with the correct 'Bird throttle linkage bellcrank.
There are some very knowledgeable participants on this Forum and numerous '55 - '57 'Bird owners. Others may chime in with their thoughts.
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By NoShortcuts - 9 Years Ago
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Zuburg: You indicated that the engine in the '37 is of T-Bird origin. IF it is, it may have a number of 'Bird-only parts on it that have re-sale value. Although the basic engine is the same, most people do not realize the extent of specialized components that go into converting a passenger car y-block for use in a baby 'Bird. - As an example, there are two N.O.S. 'Bird crankshaft vibration dampers (front pulleys) presently on eBay. One is advertised for $699, the other for $750! A good used one should bring a part of that amount.
I've attached a link to a Forum thread a month ago that includes Charlie Brown's list of component differences between a '57 'Bird engine and a '56 Mercury passenger car y-block. [Ha! I failed to include the change in '57 to the spin-on type oil filter from the '56 Ford/Merc canister type oil filter unit]
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic117400.aspx
Hope this helps.
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