Timing Set Question...

Timing Set Question...

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By MAD-EVAN - 10 Years Ago

Hey there everybody,

I have been lurking on here for quite a while just trying to soak up as much info as I could, but I have come to the point where I cannot seem to find a good answer.

I am in the process of rebuilding my 59 292 for my Fairlane. I have had all the machine work done to the block and am starting assembly now. My question is about a timing set. I work in the automotive industry and get a "factory" style timing set quick and cheap. Is this the way to go or should I save my pennies and go for the roller timing set from rollmaster, or something similar?

The block was bored .30 over and is running a mild clay smith cam. It will have the Ford 4 barrel manifold with a holley 650 carb. I will be using the stock ford-o-matic transmission that came out of the car. I will be using the stock exhaust manifolds for now. Not going to be looking for high horsepower out of this project, just a reliable engine for the 4 door to cruise with.

If there is anything I left out, please don't hesitate to ask. I am just trying to determine if I should go with a factory style timing set or a roller set.

Thanks guys,

Evan

By Hoosier Hurricane - 10 Years Ago

The factory style timing set will fit your needs just fine.

By NoShortcuts - 10 Years Ago

I'll second John's recommendation, Evan. Info in previous Forum threads indicates that the original style silent timing chain assemblies are better suited for street and highway use because the chain will stretch less over the intended life cycle.

Timing chain stretch causes ignition timing 'float' at cruising rpm which is an indicator of timing variations that you don't want under other circumstances such as engine acceleration or deceleration.

Interesting to me that Ford used the double roller chains for the y-block heavy duty truck applications and I've seen them in two marine y-block application tear-downs, too.

By Ted - 10 Years Ago

I’m with John and Charlie in that the stock link belt timing set will fit your needs. On the flip side of this, one of the advantages to using the Rollmaster timing set is the multi-keyed crankshaft gear that allows the cam timing to be fine tuned. Regardless of the timing set being used, it’s highly recommended that the camshaft be degreed in to insure it is phased correctly. While a majority of camshaft installations fall in the ‘close enough’ range by simply putting the dots twelve pins apart, there are those instances where the camshaft is off enough to create tuning and/or performance problems.

By MAD-EVAN - 10 Years Ago

Thanks for the help guys. Looks like the stock replacement it is then.

As for dialing in the camshaft, what am I going to need and how difficult is it? Sorry if this is a novice question, but this is my first rebuild on any engine let alone a y-block.

Are there any other helps tips or things to remember at this point of my build?

Thanks again guys,

Evan

By ian57tbird - 10 Years Ago

If this is your first rebuild then get some help from someone that knows what they are doing, not someone who thinks they do.

By NoShortcuts - 10 Years Ago

Ian's input is short, but extremely good advice, Evan.

IMO, also, learning-by-doing is a great concept, but not the approach to adopt in rebuilding your first engine. Even if you have the appropriate Ford Shop Repair Manual to follow, there are too many 'goes-without-saying' standard engine assembly practices that are not delineated in the text.

By NoShortcuts - 10 Years Ago

MAD-EVAN (6/26/2014)

Are there any other helps tips or things to remember at this point of my build?

Evan

_______________________________

Back to your question, Evan…

ALL makes and series of engines have different nuances that engine builders ‘learn’ in working on them. The likelihood of you teaming up with someone who is familiar with our 50 year old y-blocks today is getting slimmer.

Soooo… your question was a good one. Here are a few ‘borrowed’ pieces (related to the installation of the cam in a y-block) that will help you and whoever you work with, even if they are in the auto machine shop business.

From John Mummert’s website: www.ford-y-block.com/

Camshaft: Don't throw away your old camshaft until you've saved the thrust spacer. The new cam doesn't come with one. If you already threw it away you're in luck, we've had some made.

Cam thrust: It appears that Ford used 2 different thickness thrust washers and plates on the cam. With the wrong combination there will be no end play in cam. Ensure .004"movement during assembly.

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Camshaft Installation: [Forum thread, Ted Eaton input]

I shoot for 0.004” - 0.006” for camshaft end play. Cam thrust plate thicknesses typically measure about 0.191”give or take 0.002”. When installing the slightly thicker non-keyed spacer on the camshaft, be sure the chamfer goes to the back as being to the front will add an excessive amount of end play. With the timing gear removed from the camshaft, the cam itself should fall in at least 0.025” or more behind the face of the block to insure that the camshaft is not riding upon the rear cam plug when the gear set is installed.

_________________________

Camshaft Front Retainer Modification:

To provide improved oiling of the front camshaft retainer surface where the retainer contacts the camshaft, make a modification to the surface of the retainer with a cut-off grinding wheel. See http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/tipstricks/74739/

Y-Block Revisited

Notching the cam-bearing plate allows oil to seep through and better lube the end of the cam. Look closely and you can see the ring where the cam scored the plate due to lack of oil.

____________________________

Rear Camshaft Plug Installation: from Eaton Balancing web site http://www.eatonbalancing.com/blog/2011/10/21/rear-camshaft-plug-installation/

Rear cam plug installation on the Ford Y-Block engines dictates that it not be installed so deeply that it actually interferes or contacts the rear of the camshaft. Besides the obvious wear issue that can occur at the face of the cam plug, detrimental wear at the rear side of the cam thrust plate can become evident or in a worst case situation, the thrust plate itself can break. Unlike a Ford FE engine where the cam plug actually goes into the block cup side first or facing in, the cam plugs for the Y are designed to be installed with the cup side facing the rear of the engine.This puts the flat face of the Y’s cam plug in a position to contact the rear of the camshaft if the plug itself is installed too deeply into the block.

When installing the camshaft in the block and without the cam gear yet installed, the front face of the camshaft is expected to fall behind the front of the block or behind the cam thrust plate at least 0.050”. If it does this, then the cam plug is installed correctly and not too deeply into the block. If the camshaft fits flush with the block or actually protrudes slightly in front of the block when the cam itself is pushed in as far as it will physically go, then the rear cam plug installation should be readdressed before going any further.

I’ll add that when assembling the engine, examine in detail all the individual parts. The cam thrust plate can be cracked from a previous installation and a single crack can be easily overlooked if not being watched for.

And last but not least, use some sealer on the outer edge of the cam plug when installing it. Although there’s no oil pressure between the plug and the rear of the camshaft, there is still oil residing in that area and seepage from a rear cam plug is very often mistaken for a rear main seal leak.

Originally published in the Y-BlockMagazine, Mar-Apr 2011 issue, Issue #103, Vol 20, No.8

By NoShortcuts - 10 Years Ago

Hmmmm.... none of the pictures that I thought were going to be included in my upload appear to have made it...

Had a picture of the front camshaft retainer plate being modified with a cut-off wheel... Toggle the Rod and Custom Internet address. Click on the picture to enlarge it...

Toggle the Eaton Balancing site for the pictures that Ted shows pertaining to the text that did upload...

By Ted - 10 Years Ago

NoShortcuts (6/28/2014)

Hmmmm.... none of the pictures that I thought were going to be included in my upload appear to have made it.. ...

Charlie. While the pictures in your post are not immediately viewable on my end, the links within the picture boxes are present. Clicking on the links allows the pictures to come up in a fresh window and then using the ‘back’ key permits the original post to come back into view after viewing the picture.

By Ted - 10 Years Ago

MAD-EVAN (6/26/2014)

.... As for dialing in the camshaft, what am I going to need and how difficult is it? Sorry if this is a novice question, but this is my first rebuild on any engine let alone a y-block. ...

If you’ll scroll down through the following link, some detailed instructions for degreeing in the camshaft are there.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instructions/Files/145.pdf

I’m in the process of writing up my own set of cam degreeing instructions for a future issue of Y-Block Magazine but that will still be some months away. There are several engine build articles in the works that will precede that particular ‘how to’ article.

By CK - 10 Years Ago

You can by the book " how to modify ford Y block" on ebay and amazon for a small amount which I'm sure will help you understand the engine.

I think there is an older version still for sale too.

But I'll stand by the advise you've been given so far. I'm so much more confident with the help I got through my build.