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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Hey everyone,
The 292 in my 59 Edsel is doing one thing thats keeping my from driving it more often. From a dead stop, if I try to accelerate too quickly, the engine will hit a spot where it just dies out. It happens pretty early on too, before I even get to 10 miles an hour. BUT, if I accelerate really slowly past that spot, everything is fine. Once I'm going, there is no stopping that engine. It's coupled to a 2 speed Mile-O-Matic transmission, not sure if that means anything. The carburetor was rebuilt about two years ago. |
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By Talkwrench - 10 Years Ago
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Sounds like a problem with the accelerator pump. What type of carb is it? Car off. Take the air cleaner off make sure its been running or you know it has fuel in the carb. Pull the accelerator linkage and you should be able to see squirts of fuel coming out into the carb..
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Okay, I'll test that pump. It is a 2100 carburetor. Thanks for help guys. Could the pump have gone bad after only two years though?
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By gekko13 - 10 Years Ago
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The Autolite 2100 and 4100 have several adjustments for the amount of accelerator pump. The horizontal lever usually has 2 holes for the link. The vertical lever adjacent to the throttle arm has 4 holes. Moving the accelerator pump link to the inner hole on the horizontal lever increases the amount of pump shot. Moving the link to a lower hole on the vertical lever also increases the amount and thus temporarily enriches the fuel mixture off idle. Try moving the accelerator pump rod toward the richer settings from where it currently is until the flat spot goes away. You may have to also adjust the initial spark timing too but this should help. Let us know your results.
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By lowrider - 10 Years Ago
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Is the carb original to the car? Early model 2100's have a check ball in the pump circuit behind the accelerator pump diaphragm that sometimes develop a flat spot and can cause a hesitation. Easy to spot, you'll see a large screwhead on the carb body right behind the accelerator pump housing. If there's no screw you have a later carb with the red neoprene check valve. If you have the early model you should be able to remove the screw and retrieve the check ball with a small magnet to inspect it. Just something easy to check without a lot of disassembly.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Well, I drove the car today, putting the accelerator pump between selection 1 and 3. (1 is the richest setting right?) It still wants to die out in that one spot. The carburetor is original to the car and does have the screw above the accelerator pump. I have not checked it for flat spots yet. I suppose I'll get my timing light out and see if anything is off. Could my vacuum advance be causing trouble as well? It is original. I tested it before though, sucked into it and it did move the diaphragm.
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By Ted - 10 Years Ago
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'59Edsel (6/9/2014)
Okay, I'll test that pump. It is a 2100 carburetor. Thanks for help guys. Could the <accelerator> pump have gone bad after only two years though? Yes. Carburetor parts can die quite quickly and especially where ethanol laden fuels are concerned. Have you checked the ethanol content? While 10% ethanol is a problem for carbs, 15% or more ethanol is even more of a problem when it comes to general drivability. The age of the fuel is also a consideration and especially so if it has ethanol. Water absorption is a consideration also.
Did you check that the accelerator pump is shooting a nice stream of fuel from the discharge nozzles? It should do this quite easily. If you have to move the accelerator arm quickly to get that discharge, then the ball under the screw is suspect.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Here are a few videos I made of the car running today. The first video shows the car running with the accelerator pump on position #1 and second video of it at #4. I did these videos as a test because I had tried adjusting the idle mixture screws (Before realizing that adjusting these wasn't going to do anything, as these are for IDLE only…lol) I haven't checked timing yet, that's tomorrow, and I haven't pulled the little check ball out yet, but I'll do that soon. (Also, you can barely make it out in the video, but my fuel line going into the carburetor has a big kink in it, I don't know if that might cause any trouble, but the car runs fine for everything except alliterating from a dead stop like noted before)
Video of accelerator pump on #1: |
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Okay, and update for today...
I visually tested the accelerator pump and it is shooting a nice stream into the carburetor on each side. So that seems ok.
I took out the check ball on the top of the accelerator pump and it's beautiful, not a pit on it.
…Still need to see the timing.
[And I stopped all testing when one of my other problems reared its ugly head after a long hiatus. My tranny overflowed out of the fill tube. It's an original 2 speed Mile-O-Matic. I was revving the engine (While cold) and it overflowed from the fill tube. Hasn't done this for a while. When hot, the dipstick shows the perfect level. Not sure why its overflowing. And yes its the correct dipstick. I'll post this on my old thread about it…] |
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Took her out again today, still doing the same thing. If I really punch it she'll move past that dry spot and be fine after that. Seem to accelerate well while at speed. If I'm in reverse and going up an incline, the engine will do the same thing, scary thing there is after it moves past the bogging point, the engine will really let loose and then my driveshaft just bangs the differential into movement. I hear that loud clang of a driveshaft typical when you change from forward to reverse…almost feel like she'll burn out. Gotta be careful though, don't want to shatter my diff.
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By Ted - 10 Years Ago
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If this is related to an ignition timing problem, then by using a timing light and observing the timing curve at the damper while running the rpms up and down may indicate a distributor that has erratic or sticking curve attributes. I would check the timing curve with the vacuum advance both unplugged and hooked up and observe each.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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I will do this! Thanks
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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I haven't checked the vacuum advance yet, but as a precaution I went ahead and ordered up a new one. The one on there is original and I can't imagine the rubber is any good..
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Vacuum advance I bought didn't fit, but it appears the old one is working ok. So it looks like we can rule out accelerator pump and timing. What else could it be?
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By Ted - 10 Years Ago
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Did you check the ignition timing curve with the vacuum advance disconnected? It should be smooth and without any erratic movements as you bring the rpms up and down. The timing should also return back to the same initial timing setting each time at idle also.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Ted (7/11/2014)
Did you check the ignition timing curve with the vacuum advance disconnected? It should be smooth and without any erratic movements as you bring the rpms up and down. The timing should also return back to the same initial timing setting each time at idle also.
I will do this and try to capture it on video.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Here is a video with the vacuum advance disconnected:
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By Daniel Jessup - 10 Years Ago
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'59Edsel (6/25/2014)
Took her out again today, still doing the same thing. If I really punch it she'll move past that dry spot and be fine after that. Seem to accelerate well while at speed. If I'm in reverse and going up an incline, the engine will do the same thing, scary thing there is after it moves past the bogging point, the engine will really let loose and then my driveshaft just bangs the differential into movement. I hear that loud clang of a driveshaft typical when you change from forward to reverse…almost feel like she'll burn out. Gotta be careful though, don't want to shatter my diff.
This kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if you don't have transmission problems - even if your engine is stuttering, coughing, missing, etc, your torque converter shouldn't be letting your driveshaft bang/clang your differential like you are driving a manual transmission car. Your earlier post about the transmission puking ATF while it is COLD and you are revving the engine sounds like the trouble might be there. Your engine/driveline only act that way (under 10 mph under acceleration right?) when you are under load? And it sounds like your engine is responding correctly when not under load and your revving the throttle in neutral or park...
What is the history of the transmission?
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Daniel Jessup (7/21/2014)
'59Edsel (6/25/2014)
Took her out again today, still doing the same thing. If I really punch it she'll move past that dry spot and be fine after that. Seem to accelerate well while at speed. If I'm in reverse and going up an incline, the engine will do the same thing, scary thing there is after it moves past the bogging point, the engine will really let loose and then my driveshaft just bangs the differential into movement. I hear that loud clang of a driveshaft typical when you change from forward to reverse…almost feel like she'll burn out. Gotta be careful though, don't want to shatter my diff.
This kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if you don't have transmission problems - even if your engine is stuttering, coughing, missing, etc, your torque converter shouldn't be letting your driveshaft bang/clang your differential like you are driving a manual transmission car. Your earlier post about the transmission puking ATF while it is COLD and you are revving the engine sounds like the trouble might be there. Your engine/driveline only act that way (under 10 mph under acceleration right?) when you are under load? And it sounds like your engine is responding correctly when not under load and your revving the throttle in neutral or park...
What is the history of the transmission?
Hmm, I see where you're going with that. Makes sense. As far as history goes, I have no clue. I bought the car from a guy who had a ton of old iron he bought from a guy and so on and so on. As far as everything looks, the car appears original and never has been rebuilt or worked on. And in all likelihood has rolled over its odometer.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Could my addition of a pcv valve and elimination of my road draft tube be a cause?
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By Ted - 10 Years Ago
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'59Edsel (7/27/2014)
Could my addition of a pcv valve and elimination of my road draft tube be a cause?While doubtful, the addition of the PCV valve can potentially lean the mixture depending upon the carburetor or the particular PCV valve being used. Most Sixties and up carbs are calibrated for PCV valves but those carbs from the Fifties vehicles are not and in those cases, must be recalibrated to give a slightly richer mixture in which to compensate. The incorrect PCV valve being used can also be a problem.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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The pcv valve was incorrect and was allowing for a large vacuum leak. I was only getting 7 inches of mercury. I replaced the pvc, which get my 17 inches, but this did not improve my situation. Here is a video showing acceleration and stalling with and without a vacuum gauge installed:
And heres the update from yesterday, I show the problem after my question about the exhaust: |
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By miker - 10 Years Ago
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Well, one last thought. I've had a lot of problems with the fuel hoses/ethanol/carb combination. The hoses tend to deteriorate on the inside, and little bits of rubber show up in the float bowls, above the needle/seat, etc. I've had this happen even on early '90's EFI cars. Even though the filter was good, this crap ended up in the carb. Sitting seems to make it worse.
You seem to have checked out the ignition and timing, and have the proper PCV now. So maybe a little lean from the PCV, and a little crap in the carb, and it's a lean bog the accelerator pump can't cover. Not an obvious blockage, but just a little here and there till it's too lean. Maybe even blocking part of the power valve circuit, so it only shows up on transition.
Also, after years on keeping the tank full over the winter (in warm and dry Seattle), I now leave the cars about 1/4 full. When I start them in the spring and they don't run quite right, I bring the tank to 3/4 full. Solves the problem. I've even had this happen with cars stored over the summer in Tucson, AZ. The fuel stabilizers don't seem to help as much as they used to. I can only blame this on the ethanol, and it's lower evap rate.
I'd go thru the carb, with a good rebuild kit, and replace all the fuel hoses. Supposedly, modern "fuel injection hose" is not just rated for higher pressure, but also ethanol resistance.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and rebuild. Thanks for the steer in the right direction for the vacuum / pcv leak and my acceleration issue.
Youtube finally started working, so here are the two videos demonstrating my stalling issue: |
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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Videos are working now
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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If the carb is somehow not the issue, I was told that bumping up my timing to 10 degrees before tdc instead of the 6 degrees I have it at now could help. Any thoughts?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 10 Years Ago
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The 10 degrees of static advance will be one of the better modifications you can make.
Later addition: When extending the range of advance (such as adding 4º to the 6º you started with) it is useful to have a look at the totals. With the stock set-up you are working with, the total of initial and the internal fly-weight advance should sum to about 35º-36º (vacuum line disabled). Many of us have changed the springs (to get a bit more rapid advance increase) and also limited the upper end so that the total doesn't exceed the recommendation. Depending on how aggressive you really want this to be - it can all be in "Early" (say 2500 rpm) or "Late" (3000 rpm) - it depends on how bad the local gas is.
After making such a "re-curve" performance in the "economy range" can also cause you to want to reduce the total vacuum advance being applied. In most instances, that can also be adjusted at the vacuum pot by various means.
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By '59Edsel - 10 Years Ago
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It was the carb. Runs great now that its been rebuilt. Here's a video of me cruising around in her:
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